Covid 19 Part XXIV-37,063 ROI (1,801 deaths) 12,886 NI (582 deaths) (02/10) Read OP

CalamariFritti · 25-09-2020 10:39AM

It's called theatre. We love theatre. Can't get enough of it. Gives us the illusion we're doing something.

25-09-2020 10:39AM

Boggles wrote: »

I stopped reading there.

:pac:

Every single scientist on that list is a loon because you assert one particular individual is a loon.
Must be great for yourself, cav et al living in a black and white world where all facts are objective and unchanging. The rest of us live in the real world of nuance, debate, evolving data, some people being proven wrong, some right, some people being largely incorrect but still adding value through challenging the status quo and some people being largely right but getting some very important things massively wrong

25-09-2020 10:42AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

Every shop I go into these days has a Perspex screen at the check out desk. The screens are about 1 meter high and have no sidescreens. They also have an opening for passing purchases through to be scanned.
Do people actually believe that these screens achieve anything at all. Do they believe that if there is virus in the air that it won’t go around the sides, or over the top or through the hole in the middle of these screens?
Are these screens there just to pretend to the staff and customers that there is some protection afforded by these nonsensical screens.
The same, of course, applies to face visors, (sometimes worn on the top of the head).

Every virus containing particle that lands on a screen or visor is one less potentially being inhaled by the staff. Its not a case that if one virus particle gets through the whole thing is a failure

caveat emptor · 25-09-2020 10:43AM

Nobody is panicking. Most are getting on with what we can. The situation hasn't really changed since march. We still have the same approach. Being real with people and businesses allows them them to plan and evolve.

If Leo had have said " this is going to continue for a year or more and businesses that are dependent on crowds inside will not be able to open like usual until this is resolved", they could have faced the reality and adapted rather than hoping against hope that they'll be profitable some time soon.

Instead of demanding that they reopen in a way impossible to prevent spread, they could have lobbied the local councils to allow their business to **** outside.

Instead we pretended masks don't work and that it isn't spread via the air. Its 173 days since Paddies day and with a little realism we could have reconfigured the economy to face the challenge instead of slowly bleeding out.

“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” — President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
“Men will still say, ‘This was their finest hour.’” — British Prime Minister Winston Churchill.
“One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.” — President Donald Trump.

___

"In times of crisis — wars, hurricanes, pandemics — effective leaders strike a balance between inspirational rhetoric and leveling with the public about the tough times ahead.

Historians say Trump missed the important lessons about how other world leaders have navigated crises.

Facing the coronavirus, Trump chose a different path, acknowledging that from early on he was intentionally “playing down” the threat from an outbreak that has gone on to kill more than 190,000 Americans. His rosy assessment of the peril confronting the nation spotlights the struggles he has faced in trying to steer the United States through the challenge of a pandemic."

caveat emptor · 25-09-2020 10:47AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Every single scientist on that list is a loon because you assert one particular individual is a loon.
Must be great for yourself, cav et al living in a black and white world where all facts are objective and unchanging. The rest of us live in the real world of nuance, debate, evolving data, some people being proven wrong, some right, some people being largely incorrect but still adding value through challenging the status quo and some people being largely right but getting some very important things massively wrong

:pac: That made me laugh. Sorry. You've been on the rosy side of life from the start. Thought this was an April fool's at the time.

01-04-2020

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that you were confirmed positive and recovered, you have no need to wear a mask as you are clear of the virus, and immune to reinfection. Good hygiene both leaving and returning to the house are important lest you either bring it from your household, or bring it into the rest of your family.

As the country moves forward issuing people such as yourself "recovered" certs may be important. There is no reason why, while adhering to good hygiene practices, you should not be permitted to travel more freely, especially if one was in a position to aid the most vulnerable.

Paddygreen · 25-09-2020 10:48AM

The economy doesn’t matter guys, the great reset will fix it. Our leaders would have been briefed back in January when they were in Davos. So screw the economy guys, it doesn’t matter because it is being scrapped anyway to make way for a new socially just system based on expert consensus.

Boggles · 25-09-2020 10:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Every single scientist on that list is a loon because you assert one particular individual is a loon.
Must be great for yourself, cav et al living in a black and white world where all facts are objective and unchanging. The rest of us live in the real world of nuance, debate, evolving data, some people being proven wrong, some right, some people being largely incorrect but still adding value through challenging the status quo and some people being largely right but getting some very important things massively wrong

What are you whittling on about for God sake?

I didn't write her off because I don't like her or I am not nuanced enough to form a debate.

I wrote her off because she is talking complete and utter scutter and it would appear the motives for that are not entirely in good faith.

My opinion of her was completely solidified when on Irish Tv she was asked a very basic question about her strategy and then proceeded to indulge in one of the greatest bouts of whataboutery I think I have ever seen in a debate.

What about James Joyce?

:pac:

Zebra3 · 25-09-2020 10:48AM

caveat emptor,

Are you proposing that we listen to something Churchill once said?

ednwireland · 25-09-2020 10:54AM

Paddygreen wrote: »

The economy doesn’t matter guys, the great reset will fix it. Our leaders would have been briefed back in January when they were in Davos. So screw the economy guys, it doesn’t matter because it is being scrapped anyway to make way for a new socially just system based on expert consensus.

/ sarcasm

you wish

owlbethere · 25-09-2020 10:55AM

Roger_007 wrote: »

Every shop I go into these days has a Perspex screen at the check out desk. The screens are about 1 meter high and have no sidescreens. They also have an opening for passing purchases through to be scanned.
Do people actually believe that these screens achieve anything at all. Do they believe that if there is virus in the air that it won’t go around the sides, or over the top or through the hole in the middle of these screens?
Are these screens there just to pretend to the staff and customers that there is some protection afforded by these nonsensical screens.
The same, of course, applies to face visors, (sometimes worn on the top of the head).

I will say something - people cannot be trusted. The glass screens are not ideal but it's something. Some staff would will have a customer that will stand in front of them and cough openly and that's a guarantee. Even with masks on some people will pull them off their face to cough or sneeze. There's always dirty, selfish arse holes everywhere. The screens are not ideal but it is still a barrier in front of a customer and staff member and it still something. They are there to protect people.

caveat emptor · 25-09-2020 10:55AM

Zebra3 wrote: »

caveat emptor,

Are you proposing that we listen to something Churchill once said?

God no. Comparing trumps playing down with Roosevelt's fear itself speech.

One was being real the other wasn't.

Thanks

Plumbthedepths · 25-09-2020 10:57AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

:pac: That made me laugh. Sorry. You've been on the rosy side of life from the start. Thought this was an April fool's at the time.

01-04-2020

Do you think prehaps the poster you are trying to sneer has prehaps learnt something new in the last 5 months from the date of the comment you quoted.?Even the experts you are fond of quoting admit they are still learning.

ArthurDayne · 25-09-2020 10:58AM

Boggles wrote: »

You did from the off, Now I have all ready explained that twice to you, and I gave you an example.

Lots of assumptions there, mostly wrong.

Pattern is emerging.

Nearly 6,000 deaths and an economy hit just as bad as their neighbors who have had a fractions of the illness and far less deaths collectively and a sense that they are just beginning their second wave?

Have I missed a meeting have Sweden been declared the winner of the Pandemic Cup?

I’ve said it from the start, one of the huge problems with the Covid debate is that people jump straight away to extremify the views of others who they disagree with. Happens all the time now in every debate, people feel the need to polarise other opinions and make them sound as extreme and nonsensical as possible. There is this mentality of “if you disagree with me on one thing, you disagree with me on everything”.

And here we have the perfect example. I mean, where did I say Sweden won anything ? You have just taken what I said and made an assumption that I think the Swedish strategy is divine gospel, then threw in the wee Pandemic Cup reference to make it sound like I’m being nonsensical. It’s a tiresome feature on these forums.

There are areas of the Swedish Covid strategy which appear to be working, in other areas they failed — primarily in care homes where, like the strategy here in Ireland which you seem to deify, they failed the care home residents. But they seem to be containing the virus right now and so it seems utterly daft to me not to at least ask what we can possibly do to emulate that. There is evidence to suggest that despite Sweden’s major failure with care homes in the short term, there may be elements of their long term strategy that we can look at and try to apply, with the advantage of knowing more and being better prepared than we were in February.

There are WHO officials saying that there may be lessons to be learned from Sweden, which could either be applied wholesale or tailored per country. But I suppose you’ll go find out who these qualified people are and then tell me they are loons because you know all about Basic Maths and Common Sense right ?

JDD · 25-09-2020 11:01AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Nobody is panicking. Most are getting on with what we can. The situation hasn't really changed since march. We still have the same approach. Being real with people and businesses allows them them to plan and evolve.

If Leo had have said " this is going to continue for a year or more and businesses that are dependent on crowds inside will not be able to open like usual until this is resolved", they could have faced the reality and adapted rather than hoping against hope that they'll be profitable some time soon.

Instead of demanding that they reopen in a way impossible to prevent spread, they could have lobbied the local councils to allow their business to **** outside.

Instead we pretended masks don't work and that it isn't spread via the air. Its 173 days since Paddies day and with a little realism we could have reconfigured the economy to face the challenge instead of slowly bleeding out.

“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” — President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

“Men will still say, ‘This was their finest hour.’” — British Prime Minister Winston Churchill.

“One day, it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.” — President Donald Trump.

___

"In times of crisis — wars, hurricanes, pandemics — effective leaders strike a balance between inspirational rhetoric and leveling with the public about the tough times ahead.

Historians say Trump missed the important lessons about how other world leaders have navigated crises.

Facing the coronavirus, Trump chose a different path, acknowledging that from early on he was intentionally “playing down” the threat from an outbreak that has gone on to kill more than 190,000 Americans. His rosy assessment of the peril confronting the nation spotlights the struggles he has faced in trying to steer the United States through the challenge of a pandemic."

I think that all is with 20/20 hindsight though. I followed the pandemic news during February and especially in the last week of Feb/first week of March. I bought surgical masks online before they sold out. I bought hand sanitiser well before it sold out. Only myself and one other colleague at work agreed that this was going to be a long term issue and that it was inevitable that we were going to be sent to work from home. When March 14 arrived, and the schools were closed for two weeks, we were the only two who admitted that we wouldn't see each other before the summer.

But even we were wrong. And we felt like the biggest pessimists in the face of colleagues saying see you at Easter. Even I thought the virus would die out over the summer, like other respiratory diseases. It wasn't known that the virus was carried in aerosol particles until May at the earliest, when the New York Times covered a story regarding a discovery in Boston University on the issue. Lack of PPE for HCW was a massive issue at the time, people forget that.

If I had been a politician in March, I'm not sure I would have had the information to do anything differently. PPE for HCW was the No.1 priority, and at the time it was thought that the virus was only carried in large droplets, which fall quickly, and therefore social distancing was sufficient. I probably would have said the same thing about masks at the start.

Would I have moved old people into care homes from hospitals?

Well, I know that getting capacity for The Surge, which was expected to be way larger than it ended up being, was the No.2 priority. Politicians made the mistake of believing that Covid was not already widespread in the community in early March, and believed that we only had the few cases that had already tested positive. Was that unreasonable? It was certainly naive, and too optimistic, but would I say that they were negligent in deciding to move those old people into the care homes? I'm not sure I'd go that far. Clearly, it was a massive mistake with dreadful consequences, but from what I remember being the generally held beliefs on the virus in early March from my colleagues, I'm not surprised the politicians held those views too. I only remember this all so clearly because my own views about how prevalent covid was at the time, and how long this was going to go on for, diverged so widely from so many of my friends and family, and in the media.

Mistakes have been made. There's no doubt about that. And there's little or no excuse for the mistakes made by the government over the past three months, when we fully know where we are at now. But when judging what was done in the first two months of the outbreak you have to remember what was known and not known at that stage.

caveat emptor · 25-09-2020 11:03AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Do you think prehaps the poster you are trying to sneer has prehaps learnt something new in the last 5 months from the date of the comment you quoted.?Even the experts you are fond of quoting admit they are still learning.

You are right. I got accused by the poster that I was not living in the real world and I'm demonstrating that they haven't been since the start.

We are exactly where we started. Bit more realism instead of shouting at people freedom.

It's a pandemic and a public health crisis. Be part of the solution instead of minimising it and we might get somewhere next year.

Plumbthedepths · 25-09-2020 11:06AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

You are right. I got accused by the poster that I was not living in the real world and I'm demonstrating that they haven't been since the start.

We are exactly where we started. Bit more realism instead of shouting at people freedom.

It's a pandemic and a public health crisis. Be part of the solution instead of minimising it and we might get somewhere next year.

He has a different opinion than you and from what I can see you have absolutely no respect for anyone that has a differing viewpoint. Your posts are usually informative however they are normally contained within a condescending and somewhat snide overall response.
You're an intelligent poster why not behave in such a manner?
That's my opinion.
Edit
Btw for many people the effects of the virus are minimal, that is fact. The effects of the restrictions is a different matter, although I think they are going to take centre stage in the next 6 to 12 months.

Away With The Fairies · 25-09-2020 11:09AM

Has there been anything official yet about this being airborne? CDC said something and then went back on it. This is very dangerous behaviour of these organisations to continue going on about large droplets when it's smaller particles that's also causing the issue.

Boggles · 25-09-2020 11:09AM

ArthurDayne wrote: »

I’ve said it from the start, one of the huge problems with the Covid debate is that people jump straight away to extremify the views of others

I agree, here is a glaring example from earlier.

ArthurDayne wrote: »

You can keep repeating the terms “basic maths” and “common sense” all you want. You’re not really adding anything to the discussion if your line is simply: (A) Healthcare experts advising Irish government and all policies being adopted in Ireland = Right and (B) Everyone else from anonymous Boards posters, academics with at least some qualifications in epidemiological studies, other governments with different levels of restrictions, the experts advising countries like Sweden = All Wrong / Loons because Basic Maths and Common Sense.

Again, maybe take some time and self reflect, at the very least try tone down the glaring hypocrisy and pontification, that soap box looks fair unsteady. Be careful.

Now since you have absolutely no interest in discussing the topic of thread.

I'd bid you farewell. Have a good one.

Plumbthedepths · 25-09-2020 11:11AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Has there been anything official yet about this being airborne? CDC said something and then went back on it. This is very dangerous behaviour of these organisations to continue going on about large droplets when it's smaller particles that's also causing the issue.

So you don't trust the CDC now because they have revised their position on airborne transmission.
They are still learning about the virus and adapt their advice to new findings.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/health/cdc-reverts-airborne-transmission-guidance/index.html

mr zulu · 25-09-2020 11:13AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

You are right. I got accused by the poster that I was not living in the real world and I'm demonstrating that they haven't been since the start.

We are exactly where we started. Bit more realism instead of shouting at people freedom.

It's a pandemic and a public health crisis. Be part of the solution instead of minimising it and we might get somewhere next year.

I think the problem here is that some posters are Constantly focused on the negatives, while most people know there is negative and positive news out there, being negative means you can't see other views but your own.

25-09-2020 11:14AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

:pac: That made me laugh. Sorry. You've been on the rosy side of life from the start. Thought this was an April fool's at the time.

01-04-2020

Cav -nearly everyone's outlook is rosy compared to you. Where is the 2-3% IFR, where are the patients left on trolley's to die, where are the masses of "long Covid" sufferers (1% or so at most)...this is not near as bad as most of us feared in March. You can acknowledge that, and also acknowledge that it is a serious disease, the consequences of which we will live with for years. Thats not hypocritical or diminishing the suffering of those who have suffered greatly, its just reality.

Unlike you I couldn't be arsed trawling your posts but am certain there are more than a few questionable ideas, and the occasional fake link. And without knowing what I had been replying to in the post you so kindly dragged up, I cant really respond, other that to say, I was looking for solutions not problems and similar ideas were widely circulating in the spring. And while the practicalities of such a proposal would not be implementable, the point stands that managing the population through this is the only viable long term course, hopefully supplemented with a vaccine in the next few months

Plumbthedepths · 25-09-2020 11:15AM

mr zulu wrote: »

I think the problem here is that some posters are Constantly focused on the negatives, while most people know there is negative and positive news out there, being negative means you can't see other views but your own.

Can't implies no choice, won't is more appropriate.

ArthurDayne · 25-09-2020 11:26AM

Boggles wrote: »

I agree, here is a glaring example from earlier.

Again, maybe take some time and self reflect, at the very least try tone down the glaring hypocrisy and pontification, that soap box looks fair unsteady. Be careful.

Now since you have absolutely no interest in discussing the topic of thread.

I'd bid you farewell. Have a good one.

Fair enough man, personally I think you had assumed you were debating with some Gemma O’Doherty fan / conspiracy theorist / die-hard kill the pensioners type of character and you didn’t really know what to do once you realised I wasn’t. That’s what happens when you just dismiss peoples’ opinions from the word Go and personally I don’t think this country is ever going to properly get over this crisis until everyone climbs down from their own sense of moral and intellectual self-righteousness.

Plumbthedepths · 25-09-2020 11:27AM

mr zulu wrote: »

I think the problem here is that some posters are Constantly focused on the negatives, while most people know there is negative and positive news out there, being negative means you can't see other views but your own.

Oxford is proceeding with clinical trails of the Astra Zenica vaccine in the next week or so, positive
It probably won't work , negative

RebelButtMunch · 25-09-2020 11:32AM

mr zulu wrote: »

being negative means you can't see other views but your own.

That's some leap of logic there.

Boggles · 25-09-2020 11:38AM

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Fair enough man, personally I think you had assumed you were debating with some Gemma O’Doherty fan / conspiracy theorist / die-hard kill the pensioners type of character and you didn’t really know what to do once you realised I wasn’t. That’s what happens when you just dismiss peoples’ opinions from the word Go and personally I don’t think this country is ever going to properly get over this crisis until everyone climbs down from their own sense of moral and intellectual self-righteousness.

Well no, I didn't do any of that. Again they are your assumptions, I can't take any credit or blame for them.

I simply challenged your assertion that public health and science community were split on how at this moment in time to deal with the pandemic.

You countered with the lazy predictable hand grenade

'What would you know, you are not qualified'.

But I completely agree, people need to "climb down from their own sense of moral and intellectual self-righteousness" and start basing their opinions on evidenced based science and common sense.

Like I do.

JP Liz V1 · 25-09-2020 11:41AM

A Roscommon publican who went to work displaying coronavirus symptoms while awaiting test results has said he didn’t know he should have been isolating.

Mr Murray, owner of An Bóthar Rua pub in Elphin subsequently tested positive for coronavirus after attending his busy bar on Saturday night.

Mr Murray told the Roscommon Herald: “I will put my hands up and say I didn’t know I had to self-isolate. If I knew I was supposed to, I would not have been at the bar on Saturday.

The Independent

Busi_Girl08 · 25-09-2020 11:43AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

A Roscommon publican who went to work displaying coronavirus symptoms while awaiting test results has said he didn’t know he should have been isolating.

Mr Murray, owner of An Bóthar Rua pub in Elphin subsequently tested positive for coronavirus after attending his busy bar on Saturday night.

Mr Murray told the Roscommon Herald: “I will put my hands up and say I didn’t know I had to self-isolate. If I knew I was supposed to, I would not have been at the bar on Saturday.

The Independent

Well he is just an idiot.

celt262 · 25-09-2020 11:44AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

A Roscommon publican who went to work displaying coronavirus symptoms while awaiting test results has said he didn’t know he should have been isolating.

Mr Murray, owner of An Bóthar Rua pub in Elphin subsequently tested positive for coronavirus after attending his busy bar on Saturday night.

Mr Murray told the Roscommon Herald: “I will put my hands up and say I didn’t know I had to self-isolate. If I knew I was supposed to, I would not have been at the bar on Saturday.

The Independent

You would wonder with some people.

Plumbthedepths · 25-09-2020 11:44AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

A Roscommon publican who went to work displaying coronavirus symptoms while awaiting test results has said he didn’t know he should have been isolating.

Mr Murray, owner of An Bóthar Rua pub in Elphin subsequently tested positive for coronavirus after attending his busy bar on Saturday night.

Mr Murray told the Roscommon Herald: “I will put my hands up and say I didn’t know I had to self-isolate. If I knew I was supposed to, I would not have been at the bar on Saturday.

The Independent

Is there a 'pitchfork and torch' bus being organised for Elphin? Where are the pick up points?

Covid 19 Part XXIV-37,063 ROI (1,801 deaths) 12,886 NI (582 deaths) (02/10) Read OP

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