What are the left parties' unique selling points?

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 16-09-2020 2:38pm #1

I think the other left parties are struggling in comparison to SF because they struggle to differentiate themselves.

What do they offer that Sinn Fein don't have? What is the unique selling point of PBP, Labour and the Soc Dems? People say FF/FG are two cheeks of the same arse but the other side of the spectrum has similar problems, in my view.

Chips Lovell · 16-09-2020 2:42pm

There would be varying approaches to taxation and how to pay for public spending. And the Greens would probably be stronger on the environmental front.

But the main differentiator would be Sinn Fein's links to terrorism and organised crime. Some people aren't comfortable with that and wouldn't vote for them because of that. Some have less of an issue with it.

Godot. · 16-09-2020 2:58pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

There would be varying approaches to taxation and how to pay for public spending. And the Greens would probably be stronger on the environmental front.

But the main differentiator would be Sinn Fein's links to terrorism and organised crime. Some people aren't comfortable with that and wouldn't vote for them because of that. Some have less of an issue with it[\b].

As a left of center person, I'd sooner rather another decade of Fine Gael rule than vote to put Sinn Fein into government. In fact, voting for Soc Dems or PBP probably enables SF because they'd prop them up if the numbers were there after the next election. How depressing.

ThewhiteJesus · 16-09-2020 3:01pm

Opposition, it's all they're good for.

Nody · 16-09-2020 3:07pm

The first and most obvious part of not being SF is the NI issues that may come with it. Some people will never vote SF because of what happened during the 70s etc. Second part is on how they wish the tax/funding to look like, i.e. what are you going to tax, whom etc. is something to differ on easily. Third part would be to go for is to take some social issue such as abortion, divorce, fishing, oil etc. and put your stand in a camp clearly and loudly. It may not win you majority but you can get a core that will support your party.

Potatoeman · 16-09-2020 3:08pm

SF and PBP are socialists, if you want investment flight vote for them but don’t be surprised when the foreign multinationals leave.

Retr0gamer · 16-09-2020 3:18pm

They offer realistic, achievable goals rather than Sinn Fein's pie in the sky dreams that will be paid for by the apple money and raising the corporation tax and bankrupting the country.

Also no history of domestic terrorism or defending pedos either is a nice plus.

Brussels Sprout · 16-09-2020 4:48pm

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

What do they offer that Sinn Fein don't have? What is the unique selling point of PBP, Labour and the Soc Dems?

Labour & The Soc Dems are very similar and would be traditional left of centre parites. Their only real difference is historical given that 2 of their three founding members were ex-Labour party members. Labour have traditionally had close ties to the trade unions, in particular SIPTU. I can see a future where these parties merge in a way that labour merged with the Progressive Democrats.

The Green Party are similar to the above except with a heavier emphasis on environmental matters. All 3 of these are parties that could easily be seen in coalition governments.

PBP are an entirely different animal. They are actually further to the left than SF. SF became an anti-water charges party mainly because they were concerned with AAA-PBP eating into their vote share on their left flank if they supported the charges. They are a loose grouping of TDs more so than a party which can be seen in the way that they are constantly chopping and changing their names and affiliations. Parties that fall into this mould that I can recall include:

PBP
AAA
Solidarity
The Socialist Party
Independents 4 Change
Rise

It would be very difficult to imagine any scenario where any of these ever go into coalition as their ideological purity is one of their selling points. Coalitions involve compromise and they don't tend to want to do that. For that reason I see them as protest parties.

Aontu: Are basically just SF except they're pro-life and are effectively a one-man band made up of ex-SF TD Peadar Tobin.

SF themselves then are a kind of mixed bag. First and foremost they're a nationalist party but to their credit, they're not a nativist party. They're a left-wing party that don't support property taxes - seemingly for political expediency. They would have been seen as a protest vote 20 years ago but in recent times they've become more open to actually making the compromises necessary to go into government. Unlike other left-wing parties they are not member led and have a very centralised power structure. They also maintain strong message discipline although they have been dogged by accusations of bullying and have had many members quitting the party in recent years. They have a ton of historical baggage which comes up regularly at election time although as the memories of The Troubles fade this seems to have less and less affect on the electorate. On the left-right spectrum they would be seen as somewhere between LP/SD/GP and PBP/SOL/RISE/I4C

whisky_galore · 16-09-2020 4:55pm

Greens are basically FG on push bikes. A party for those comfortable enough to stomach green taxes and levies.

L1011 · 16-09-2020 7:28pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I can see a future where these parties merge in a way that labour merged with the Progressive Democrats.

Democratic Left!

The PDs weren't on the left and basically melted away, with many going to FG but also some to FF and (very few) to Labour depending on what their personal opinions were.

Soc Dems are Labour for people who don't like Alan Kelly - there isn't any other difference there. When the SD co-leaders retire - they're both in their late 60s - there'll be a merger with the fiscally richer party retaining the name I'd expect.

PBP, Solidarity and RISE are much the same except for ideological nitpicking.

PBP are explicitly anti-EU and supported Brexit in NI. PBP and Solidarity are at opposition to each other when it comes to NI, Irish nationalism and related issues but not in a way that maps to other parties

RISE are just Solidarity but willing to work with SF in Government.

16-09-2020 7:29pm

Godot. wrote: »

As a left of center person, I'd sooner rather another decade of Fine Gael rule than vote to put Sinn Fein into government. In fact, voting for Soc Dems or PBP probably enables SF because they'd prop them up if the numbers were there after the next election. How depressing.

No centre left person would do such a thing.

View · 16-09-2020 10:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No centre left person would do such a thing.

Of course they would and have done so several times in the past. Nor is that anything “abnormal”, since it has been done in several other European countries, including currently in Germany.

It would be a very strange centre left person who would rush to put SF into power given their track record of support the frequent human rights abuses committed by the IRA in NI.

Capt'n Midnight · 17-09-2020 1:40am

Check who has moved into and out of the parties before you start pinning labels.

Now factor in the difficulties many people have dealing with people who left their party.

It'd be a mad diagram with lots of arrows, some only going one way and lots of "one man shows".

Lots of "we are different because we aren't them" But check who has moved into and out of the parties.

Brussels Sprout · 17-09-2020 1:19pm

L1011 wrote: »

Democratic Left!

Thank you yes - brain fart by me. And of all the parties to confuse them with I pick the one on the other side of the spectrum.

Yeah the PDs paid the price for propping up one government too many. I will forever be grateful to them though for sorting out the taxis. Queuing for 90 minutes for a taxi on a Saturday night was no joke back in 2000.

Mongfinder General · 17-09-2020 1:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No centre left person would do such a thing.

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

Retr0gamer · 17-09-2020 1:37pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

They're right wing.

If you go by the current definition that the republicans are trotting out that the very much right wing democrats are now left wing extremists then they are left wing but that out is a total fallacy.

17-09-2020 1:39pm

Not in this, nor any alternate universe, are Fine Gael left wing.

VinLieger · 17-09-2020 1:43pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

By what ridiculous definition do you consider FG to be left wing?

17-09-2020 1:44pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

They're members the European People's Party group.

Funny lot for lefties to be affiliated with.

Wanderer78 · 17-09-2020 1:44pm

Mongfinder General wrote:

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

When their leader believes that private enterprises productivity 'issues' is largely due to their unwillingness to take on debt, and that growing deficits created situations such as Hitler, you can be damn sure they ain't left leaning!

The political left are a disaster zone!

VinLieger · 17-09-2020 1:48pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

When their leader believes that private enterprises productivity 'issues' is largely due to their unwillingness to take on debt, and that growing deficits created situations such as Hitler, you can be damn sure they ain't left leaning!

The political left are a disaster zone!

Im gonna guess its something to do with said poster being way too immersed in US politics and not actually understanding where the rest of the worlds and lets be honest the real left/right divide actually lies

Kilboor · 17-09-2020 1:48pm

Fine Gael are definitely socially left compared to even 20 years ago.

Economically they are centre right, I'd rather they were more right with their economic policies, not because I agree with it but because their current economic policies don't benefit the "lower middle class" or those who are trying to work full time and afford to buy/rent a house without any government support.

Wanderer78 · 17-09-2020 1:52pm

Kilboor wrote: »

Fine Gael are definitely socially left compared to even 20 years ago.

Economically they are centre right, I'd rather they were more right with their economic policies, not because I agree with it but because their current economic policies don't benefit the "lower middle class" or those who are trying to work full time and afford to buy/rent a house without any government support.

has our more recent, more conservative economic leanings, truly worked for most, baring in mind, the political left are equally to blame for these outcomes?

Potatoeman · 17-09-2020 2:16pm

Parties listed below:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/ireland2020

Mongfinder General · 17-09-2020 4:03pm

VinLieger wrote: »

By what ridiculous definition do you consider FG to be left wing?

Fine Gael have been in government For the past 9 years and advocated for, and are

Pro abortion
Pro LGBT
Strong supporters of the EU and are critical of the UK’s Brexit process
Have kept keeping Ireland’s income tax levels high so that middle income earners subsidise those outside that bracket - redistribution of wealth
Consumption/sales tax at 23% - only recently reduced to 21%. Excise, carbon taxes Etc usually increase with each budget
Of €77 billion spent in 2019, €20.9 billion was spent on social protection and €17.5 on the public health system https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/
That's almost 50% of government spending on a health system that is not fit for purpose and a generous social welfare system. No real effort to tackle lifer welfare cases. An additional €4 billion was spent on public housing.
Less than €2 billion allocated to the Gardaí in 2019
Slave wages paid to military personnel
Direct Provision system that accommodates economic migrants yet leaves many genuine asylum seekers in limbo - no effort to return those Asylum seekers Who arrived here from "safe" countries to the first safe country that they arrived in
Crime levels that are just ignored. A penal system that's a joke. The punishment is not commensurate with the crime in so many cases.

I don't see any right wing parties except for the lunatics on the fringes who will not be taken seriously by an electorate. I just don't see how Fine Gael can be classed as right wing - they're just as populist as the rest and have continued the trend of taxing labour to fund social programs.

VinLieger · 17-09-2020 4:28pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael have been in government For the past 9 years and advocated for, and are

Pro abortion
Pro LGBT
Strong supporters of the EU and are critical of the UK’s Brexit process
Have kept keeping Ireland’s income tax levels high so that middle income earners subsidise those outside that bracket - redistribution of wealth
Consumption/sales tax at 23% - only recently reduced to 21%. Excise, carbon taxes Etc usually increase with each budget
Of €77 billion spent in 2019, €20.9 billion was spent on social protection and €17.5 on the public health system https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/
That's almost 50% of government spending on a health system that is not fit for purpose and a generous social welfare system. No real effort to tackle lifer welfare cases. An additional €4 billion was spent on public housing.
Less than €2 billion allocated to the Gardaí in 2019
Slave wages paid to military personnel
Direct Provision system that accommodates economic migrants yet leaves many genuine asylum seekers in limbo - no effort to return those Asylum seekers Who arrived here from "safe" countries to the first safe country that they arrived in
Crime levels that are just ignored. A penal system that's a joke. The punishment is not commensurate with the crime in so many cases.

I don't see any right wing parties except for the lunatics on the fringes who will not be taken seriously by an electorate. I just don't see how Fine Gael can be classed as right wing - they're just as populist as the rest and have continued the trend of taxing labour to fund social programs.

You are confusing Right wing with Authoritarian vs Libertarian. Socially they are centre or slightly left of centre which they are dragged to by the majority centre left electorate so in this case yes they are populists as you say. However this could also be more correctly described as being more liberal than authoritarian/conservative. Economically they are very much right wing or more specifically neo liberalists

Wanderer78 · 17-09-2020 6:15pm

VinLieger wrote: »

You are confusing Right wing with Authoritarian vs Libertarian. Socially they are centre or slightly left of centre which they are dragged to by the majority centre left electorate so in this case yes they are populists as you say. However this could also be more correctly described as being more liberal than authoritarian/conservative. Economically they are very much right wing or more specifically neo liberalists

..and to be more precise, economically, firmly in the neoclassical camp!

Rodney Bathgate · 17-09-2020 6:16pm

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

Opposition, it's all they're good for.

No, it’s all they are fit for. Big difference.

James Brown · 17-09-2020 6:39pm

The left generally would put the public intetest over private profit.
There's a balance to be made of course but FF/FG are unwilling or unable to create it.
Thats why we have the many crises and occasional complete financial melt down.

Chips Lovell · 17-09-2020 6:41pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Greens are basically FG on push bikes. A party for those comfortable enough to stomach green taxes and levies.

Kind of polar opposites in many respects. FG sell themselves as a tax cutting party, whereas the Greens are unafraid to propose increasing taxes. A lot of FG core support, such as big business and agriculture wouldn't be that keen on the Greens.

Wanderer78 · 17-09-2020 6:54pm

Bowie wrote: »

The left generally would put the public intetest over private profit.
There's a balance to be made of course but FF/FG are unwilling or unable to create it.
Thats why we have the many crises and occasional complete financial melt down.

traditionally yes, but in recent times, kinna no. the political left abandoned its base, particularly during the neoliberial/neoclassical era, this is very evident in the uk and us, but is somewhat also evident here

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Kind of polar opposites in many respects. FG sell themselves as a tax cutting party, whereas the Greens are unafraid to propose increasing taxes. A lot of FG core support, such as big business and agriculture wouldn't be that keen on the Greens.

funnily enough, you ll find when a conservative finance minister goes to balance his/her books, they ll generally default to the only place theyre willing to, you, the tax payer!

View · 17-09-2020 7:34pm

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael have been in government For the past 9 years and advocated for, and are

Pro abortion
Pro LGBT
Strong supporters of the EU and are critical of the UK’s Brexit process
Have kept keeping Ireland’s income tax levels high so that middle income earners subsidise those outside that bracket - redistribution of wealth
Consumption/sales tax at 23% - only recently reduced to 21%. Excise, carbon taxes Etc usually increase with each budget
Of €77 billion spent in 2019, €20.9 billion was spent on social protection and €17.5 on the public health system https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/
That's almost 50% of government spending on a health system that is not fit for purpose and a generous social welfare system. No real effort to tackle lifer welfare cases. An additional €4 billion was spent on public housing.
Less than €2 billion allocated to the Gardaí in 2019
Slave wages paid to military personnel
Direct Provision system that accommodates economic migrants yet leaves many genuine asylum seekers in limbo - no effort to return those Asylum seekers Who arrived here from "safe" countries to the first safe country that they arrived in
Crime levels that are just ignored. A penal system that's a joke. The punishment is not commensurate with the crime in so many cases.

I don't see any right wing parties except for the lunatics on the fringes who will not be taken seriously by an electorate. I just don't see how Fine Gael can be classed as right wing - they're just as populist as the rest and have continued the trend of taxing labour to fund social programs.

None of what you outline is in anyway out of the ordinary for mainstream centre-right Christian Democrat parties in Europe.

PeadarCo · 17-09-2020 9:16pm

View wrote: »

None of what you outline is in anyway out of the ordinary for mainstream centre-right Christian Democrat parties in Europe.

The thing is it sums up how meaningless the labels "left" and "right" wing are. The same for labels such as neo liberalism etc. They tend to be used by certain people as insults. In Ireland remember our some of our supposedly hard left wing parties oppose a wealth tax ie the property tax being introduced by what they call a right wing party. On an international front all Irish parties would be considered left wing if not hard left in the USA even when compared to the Democrats economicly.

If you want we talk about a party talk about their policies/what they actually do when in government. Given the nature of the Irish voting system you need a relatively broad range of supports across the electorate to get into power and even then you will probably end up in a coalition. This causes labels to go out the window as parties can take a number of policy decisions that would be contradictory under a simple left right divide. The property tax and water charges being prime examples.

Maybe in countries like the UK and the USA where a first past the Post voting system is used the labels might be more appropriate but even then look at last UK election.

Wanderer78 · 17-09-2020 9:26pm

PeadarCo wrote:

The thing is it sums up how meaningless the labels "left" and "right" wing are. The same for labels such as neo liberalism etc. They tend to be used by certain people as insults. In Ireland remember our some of our supposedly hard left wing parties oppose a wealth tax ie the property tax being introduced by what they call a right wing party. On an international front all Irish parties would be considered left wing if not hard left in the USA even when compared to the Democrats economicly.

Neoliberalism isn't an insulting term, it's exactly what the ideology is called, and has been for a couple of centuries, and particularly from more left leaning commentators over the last few decades. The confusing element of this is that both traditional left and right leaning parties have been engaging in this ideology, particularly economically, over the last few decades, this is most evident in the UK and the us, I. E. The political left has shafted it's base, and are now lost, they've no clue what they stand for, no real clue what's going on, or what to do

PeadarCo · 17-09-2020 10:15pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Neoliberalism isn't an insulting term, it's exactly what the ideology is called, and has been for a couple of centuries, and particularly from more left leaning commentators over the last few decades. The confusing element of this is that both traditional left and right leaning parties have been engaging in this ideology, particularly economically, over the last few decades, this is most evident in the UK and the us, I. E. The political left has shafted it's base, and are now lost, they've no clue what they stand for, no real clue what's going on, or what to do

Here's the thing what does it actually mean? What are the exact set of policies you would expect from a neo liberal politician? Is a neo Liberal party in Ireland the same as the UK or USA? I would find that doubtful given the very different voting systems, political cultures and policies of the major parties.

Depending on the particular political persuasion of a person label's such as left wing, right wing, communist, neo liberal, socialist etc are used as insults. Your entire posts sums up my point. Depending on what the readers idea of neo liberal, is their view of left wing andright wing is, two different readers could take two very different messages from your post. Even for me I don't really understand what you are trying to say. It just sounds like a bunch of labels that appears to be a long winded way of saying you don't like the status quo for some unspecified reason.

A perfect example is SF calling themselves a left wing party which for them means a party that looks after the less well off in society while at the same time opposing a tax on property during the middle of a housing crisis. Similarly for parties like PBP etc. Again FG and FF are supposed to be right wing while at the same time the parties have ensured we have one of the most redistributive income tax systems in the OECD with relatively high taxes on high earners and low to non existant income tax on the lowest of earners. Both points for me illustrate the impact of the Irish voting system and the views of the electorate more than any label assigned to a parties ideology.

Which to brings it back to the OPs point it doesn't matter if SF appeal to other "left of center" party or whatever other label you give another party. It about appealing to a wider range of the electorate which will probably mean changing some policies some of which will be contradictory if viewed through a black and white/ left right lense.

Imreoir2 · 19-09-2020 1:59pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Greens are basically FG on push bikes. A party for those comfortable enough to stomach green taxes and levies.

Its a nice soundbyte, but divorced from reality. The Green Party is a center left party in terms of policy and values. Far left populists like to attack the Greens becasue the Greens are willing to recognise reality and compromise to get their policies implemented while the far left sit in irrelevant purity.

Wanderer78 · 19-09-2020 4:12pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Its a nice soundbyte, but divorced from reality. The Green Party is a center left party in terms of policy and values. Far left populists like to attack the Greens becasue the Greens are willing to recognise reality and compromise to get their policies implemented while the far left sit in irrelevant purity.

id argue that, my suspicions are, underneath it all, their economic advisors are neoclassical, but maybe you can clarify this for me?

Imreoir2 · 19-09-2020 6:54pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id argue that, my suspicions are, underneath it all, their economic advisors are neoclassical, but maybe you can clarify this for me?

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by neoclassical. Perhaps you could outline your view on it?

Green Party policy is member driven. The party has a policy council that can amend any aspect of party policy, each constituency group gets one vote, as do affiliated groups such as the Young Greens.

The Green Party favours state intervention in the economy, higher taxes both to raise the revenue needed to fund universal services and to change behaviour, and a Universal Basic Income to replace the existing social welfare system to provide a social floor below which no-one will fall.

Itssoeasy · 19-09-2020 7:03pm

Kilboor wrote: »

Fine Gael are definitely socially left compared to even 20 years ago.

Economically they are centre right, I'd rather they were more right with their economic policies, not because I agree with it but because their current economic policies don't benefit the "lower middle class" or those who are trying to work full time and afford to buy/rent a house without any government support.

You could say that about FF as well.

What are the left parties' unique selling points?

Comments