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What are the left parties' unique selling points?

IRISHSPORTSGUY

I think the other left parties are struggling in comparison to SF because they struggle to differentiate themselves.

What do they offer that Sinn Fein don't have? What is the unique selling point of PBP, Labour and the Soc Dems? People say FF/FG are two cheeks of the same arse but the other side of the spectrum has similar problems, in my view.

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Itssoeasy

Kilboor wrote: »

Fine Gael are definitely socially left compared to even 20 years ago.

Economically they are centre right, I'd rather they were more right with their economic policies, not because I agree with it but because their current economic policies don't benefit the "lower middle class" or those who are trying to work full time and afford to buy/rent a house without any government support.

You could say that about FF as well.

Imreoir2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

id argue that, my suspicions are, underneath it all, their economic advisors are neoclassical, but maybe you can clarify this for me?

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by neoclassical. Perhaps you could outline your view on it?

Green Party policy is member driven. The party has a policy council that can amend any aspect of party policy, each constituency group gets one vote, as do affiliated groups such as the Young Greens.

The Green Party favours state intervention in the economy, higher taxes both to raise the revenue needed to fund universal services and to change behaviour, and a Universal Basic Income to replace the existing social welfare system to provide a social floor below which no-one will fall.

Wanderer78

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Its a nice soundbyte, but divorced from reality. The Green Party is a center left party in terms of policy and values. Far left populists like to attack the Greens becasue the Greens are willing to recognise reality and compromise to get their policies implemented while the far left sit in irrelevant purity.

id argue that, my suspicions are, underneath it all, their economic advisors are neoclassical, but maybe you can clarify this for me?

Imreoir2

whisky_galore wrote: »

Greens are basically FG on push bikes. A party for those comfortable enough to stomach green taxes and levies.

Its a nice soundbyte, but divorced from reality. The Green Party is a center left party in terms of policy and values. Far left populists like to attack the Greens becasue the Greens are willing to recognise reality and compromise to get their policies implemented while the far left sit in irrelevant purity.

PeadarCo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Neoliberalism isn't an insulting term, it's exactly what the ideology is called, and has been for a couple of centuries, and particularly from more left leaning commentators over the last few decades. The confusing element of this is that both traditional left and right leaning parties have been engaging in this ideology, particularly economically, over the last few decades, this is most evident in the UK and the us, I. E. The political left has shafted it's base, and are now lost, they've no clue what they stand for, no real clue what's going on, or what to do

Here's the thing what does it actually mean? What are the exact set of policies you would expect from a neo liberal politician? Is a neo Liberal party in Ireland the same as the UK or USA? I would find that doubtful given the very different voting systems, political cultures and policies of the major parties.

Depending on the particular political persuasion of a person label's such as left wing, right wing, communist, neo liberal, socialist etc are used as insults. Your entire posts sums up my point. Depending on what the readers idea of neo liberal, is their view of left wing andright wing is, two different readers could take two very different messages from your post. Even for me I don't really understand what you are trying to say. It just sounds like a bunch of labels that appears to be a long winded way of saying you don't like the status quo for some unspecified reason.

A perfect example is SF calling themselves a left wing party which for them means a party that looks after the less well off in society while at the same time opposing a tax on property during the middle of a housing crisis. Similarly for parties like PBP etc. Again FG and FF are supposed to be right wing while at the same time the parties have ensured we have one of the most redistributive income tax systems in the OECD with relatively high taxes on high earners and low to non existant income tax on the lowest of earners. Both points for me illustrate the impact of the Irish voting system and the views of the electorate more than any label assigned to a parties ideology.

Which to brings it back to the OPs point it doesn't matter if SF appeal to other "left of center" party or whatever other label you give another party. It about appealing to a wider range of the electorate which will probably mean changing some policies some of which will be contradictory if viewed through a black and white/ left right lense.

Wanderer78

PeadarCo wrote:

The thing is it sums up how meaningless the labels "left" and "right" wing are. The same for labels such as neo liberalism etc. They tend to be used by certain people as insults. In Ireland remember our some of our supposedly hard left wing parties oppose a wealth tax ie the property tax being introduced by what they call a right wing party. On an international front all Irish parties would be considered left wing if not hard left in the USA even when compared to the Democrats economicly.

Neoliberalism isn't an insulting term, it's exactly what the ideology is called, and has been for a couple of centuries, and particularly from more left leaning commentators over the last few decades. The confusing element of this is that both traditional left and right leaning parties have been engaging in this ideology, particularly economically, over the last few decades, this is most evident in the UK and the us, I. E. The political left has shafted it's base, and are now lost, they've no clue what they stand for, no real clue what's going on, or what to do

PeadarCo

View wrote: »

None of what you outline is in anyway out of the ordinary for mainstream centre-right Christian Democrat parties in Europe.

The thing is it sums up how meaningless the labels "left" and "right" wing are. The same for labels such as neo liberalism etc. They tend to be used by certain people as insults. In Ireland remember our some of our supposedly hard left wing parties oppose a wealth tax ie the property tax being introduced by what they call a right wing party. On an international front all Irish parties would be considered left wing if not hard left in the USA even when compared to the Democrats economicly.

If you want we talk about a party talk about their policies/what they actually do when in government. Given the nature of the Irish voting system you need a relatively broad range of supports across the electorate to get into power and even then you will probably end up in a coalition. This causes labels to go out the window as parties can take a number of policy decisions that would be contradictory under a simple left right divide. The property tax and water charges being prime examples.

Maybe in countries like the UK and the USA where a first past the Post voting system is used the labels might be more appropriate but even then look at last UK election.

View

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael have been in government For the past 9 years and advocated for, and are

Pro abortion
Pro LGBT
Strong supporters of the EU and are critical of the UK’s Brexit process
Have kept keeping Ireland’s income tax levels high so that middle income earners subsidise those outside that bracket - redistribution of wealth
Consumption/sales tax at 23% - only recently reduced to 21%. Excise, carbon taxes Etc usually increase with each budget
Of €77 billion spent in 2019, €20.9 billion was spent on social protection and €17.5 on the public health system https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/
That's almost 50% of government spending on a health system that is not fit for purpose and a generous social welfare system. No real effort to tackle lifer welfare cases. An additional €4 billion was spent on public housing.
Less than €2 billion allocated to the Gardaí in 2019
Slave wages paid to military personnel
Direct Provision system that accommodates economic migrants yet leaves many genuine asylum seekers in limbo - no effort to return those Asylum seekers Who arrived here from "safe" countries to the first safe country that they arrived in
Crime levels that are just ignored. A penal system that's a joke. The punishment is not commensurate with the crime in so many cases.

I don't see any right wing parties except for the lunatics on the fringes who will not be taken seriously by an electorate. I just don't see how Fine Gael can be classed as right wing - they're just as populist as the rest and have continued the trend of taxing labour to fund social programs.

None of what you outline is in anyway out of the ordinary for mainstream centre-right Christian Democrat parties in Europe.

Wanderer78

Bowie wrote: »

The left generally would put the public intetest over private profit.
There's a balance to be made of course but FF/FG are unwilling or unable to create it.
Thats why we have the many crises and occasional complete financial melt down.

traditionally yes, but in recent times, kinna no. the political left abandoned its base, particularly during the neoliberial/neoclassical era, this is very evident in the uk and us, but is somewhat also evident here

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Kind of polar opposites in many respects. FG sell themselves as a tax cutting party, whereas the Greens are unafraid to propose increasing taxes. A lot of FG core support, such as big business and agriculture wouldn't be that keen on the Greens.

funnily enough, you ll find when a conservative finance minister goes to balance his/her books, they ll generally default to the only place theyre willing to, you, the tax payer!

Chips Lovell

whisky_galore wrote: »

Greens are basically FG on push bikes. A party for those comfortable enough to stomach green taxes and levies.

Kind of polar opposites in many respects. FG sell themselves as a tax cutting party, whereas the Greens are unafraid to propose increasing taxes. A lot of FG core support, such as big business and agriculture wouldn't be that keen on the Greens.

James Brown

The left generally would put the public intetest over private profit.
There's a balance to be made of course but FF/FG are unwilling or unable to create it.
Thats why we have the many crises and occasional complete financial melt down.

Rodney Bathgate

ThewhiteJesus wrote: »

Opposition, it's all they're good for.

No, it’s all they are fit for. Big difference.

Wanderer78

VinLieger wrote: »

You are confusing Right wing with Authoritarian vs Libertarian. Socially they are centre or slightly left of centre which they are dragged to by the majority centre left electorate so in this case yes they are populists as you say. However this could also be more correctly described as being more liberal than authoritarian/conservative. Economically they are very much right wing or more specifically neo liberalists

..and to be more precise, economically, firmly in the neoclassical camp!

VinLieger

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael have been in government For the past 9 years and advocated for, and are

Pro abortion
Pro LGBT
Strong supporters of the EU and are critical of the UK’s Brexit process
Have kept keeping Ireland’s income tax levels high so that middle income earners subsidise those outside that bracket - redistribution of wealth
Consumption/sales tax at 23% - only recently reduced to 21%. Excise, carbon taxes Etc usually increase with each budget
Of €77 billion spent in 2019, €20.9 billion was spent on social protection and €17.5 on the public health system https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/
That's almost 50% of government spending on a health system that is not fit for purpose and a generous social welfare system. No real effort to tackle lifer welfare cases. An additional €4 billion was spent on public housing.
Less than €2 billion allocated to the Gardaí in 2019
Slave wages paid to military personnel
Direct Provision system that accommodates economic migrants yet leaves many genuine asylum seekers in limbo - no effort to return those Asylum seekers Who arrived here from "safe" countries to the first safe country that they arrived in
Crime levels that are just ignored. A penal system that's a joke. The punishment is not commensurate with the crime in so many cases.

I don't see any right wing parties except for the lunatics on the fringes who will not be taken seriously by an electorate. I just don't see how Fine Gael can be classed as right wing - they're just as populist as the rest and have continued the trend of taxing labour to fund social programs.

You are confusing Right wing with Authoritarian vs Libertarian. Socially they are centre or slightly left of centre which they are dragged to by the majority centre left electorate so in this case yes they are populists as you say. However this could also be more correctly described as being more liberal than authoritarian/conservative. Economically they are very much right wing or more specifically neo liberalists

Mongfinder General

VinLieger wrote: »

By what ridiculous definition do you consider FG to be left wing?

Fine Gael have been in government For the past 9 years and advocated for, and are

Pro abortion
Pro LGBT
Strong supporters of the EU and are critical of the UK’s Brexit process
Have kept keeping Ireland’s income tax levels high so that middle income earners subsidise those outside that bracket - redistribution of wealth
Consumption/sales tax at 23% - only recently reduced to 21%. Excise, carbon taxes Etc usually increase with each budget
Of €77 billion spent in 2019, €20.9 billion was spent on social protection and €17.5 on the public health system https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/socialprotection/2019/
That's almost 50% of government spending on a health system that is not fit for purpose and a generous social welfare system. No real effort to tackle lifer welfare cases. An additional €4 billion was spent on public housing.
Less than €2 billion allocated to the Gardaí in 2019
Slave wages paid to military personnel
Direct Provision system that accommodates economic migrants yet leaves many genuine asylum seekers in limbo - no effort to return those Asylum seekers Who arrived here from "safe" countries to the first safe country that they arrived in
Crime levels that are just ignored. A penal system that's a joke. The punishment is not commensurate with the crime in so many cases.

I don't see any right wing parties except for the lunatics on the fringes who will not be taken seriously by an electorate. I just don't see how Fine Gael can be classed as right wing - they're just as populist as the rest and have continued the trend of taxing labour to fund social programs.

Potatoeman

Parties listed below:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/ireland2020

Wanderer78

Kilboor wrote: »

Fine Gael are definitely socially left compared to even 20 years ago.

Economically they are centre right, I'd rather they were more right with their economic policies, not because I agree with it but because their current economic policies don't benefit the "lower middle class" or those who are trying to work full time and afford to buy/rent a house without any government support.

has our more recent, more conservative economic leanings, truly worked for most, baring in mind, the political left are equally to blame for these outcomes?

Kilboor

Fine Gael are definitely socially left compared to even 20 years ago.

Economically they are centre right, I'd rather they were more right with their economic policies, not because I agree with it but because their current economic policies don't benefit the "lower middle class" or those who are trying to work full time and afford to buy/rent a house without any government support.

VinLieger

Wanderer78 wrote: »

When their leader believes that private enterprises productivity 'issues' is largely due to their unwillingness to take on debt, and that growing deficits created situations such as Hitler, you can be damn sure they ain't left leaning!

The political left are a disaster zone!

Im gonna guess its something to do with said poster being way too immersed in US politics and not actually understanding where the rest of the worlds and lets be honest the real left/right divide actually lies

Wanderer78

Mongfinder General wrote:

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

When their leader believes that private enterprises productivity 'issues' is largely due to their unwillingness to take on debt, and that growing deficits created situations such as Hitler, you can be damn sure they ain't left leaning!

The political left are a disaster zone!

[Deleted User]

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

They're members the European People's Party group.

Funny lot for lefties to be affiliated with.

VinLieger

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

By what ridiculous definition do you consider FG to be left wing?

[Deleted User]

Not in this, nor any alternate universe, are Fine Gael left wing.

Retr0gamer

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

They're right wing.

If you go by the current definition that the republicans are trotting out that the very much right wing democrats are now left wing extremists then they are left wing but that out is a total fallacy.

Mongfinder General

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No centre left person would do such a thing.

Fine Gael are left wing. What makes them right wing in your eyes?

Brussels Sprout

L1011 wrote: »

Democratic Left!

Thank you yes - brain fart by me. And of all the parties to confuse them with I pick the one on the other side of the spectrum.

Yeah the PDs paid the price for propping up one government too many. I will forever be grateful to them though for sorting out the taxis. Queuing for 90 minutes for a taxi on a Saturday night was no joke back in 2000.

Capt'n Midnight

Check who has moved into and out of the parties before you start pinning labels.

Now factor in the difficulties many people have dealing with people who left their party.

It'd be a mad diagram with lots of arrows, some only going one way and lots of "one man shows".

Lots of "we are different because we aren't them" But check who has moved into and out of the parties.

View

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No centre left person would do such a thing.

Of course they would and have done so several times in the past. Nor is that anything “abnormal”, since it has been done in several other European countries, including currently in Germany.

It would be a very strange centre left person who would rush to put SF into power given their track record of support the frequent human rights abuses committed by the IRA in NI.

[Deleted User]

Godot. wrote: »

As a left of center person, I'd sooner rather another decade of Fine Gael rule than vote to put Sinn Fein into government. In fact, voting for Soc Dems or PBP probably enables SF because they'd prop them up if the numbers were there after the next election. How depressing.

No centre left person would do such a thing.

L1011

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I can see a future where these parties merge in a way that labour merged with the Progressive Democrats.

Democratic Left!

The PDs weren't on the left and basically melted away, with many going to FG but also some to FF and (very few) to Labour depending on what their personal opinions were.

Soc Dems are Labour for people who don't like Alan Kelly - there isn't any other difference there. When the SD co-leaders retire - they're both in their late 60s - there'll be a merger with the fiscally richer party retaining the name I'd expect.

PBP, Solidarity and RISE are much the same except for ideological nitpicking.

PBP are explicitly anti-EU and supported Brexit in NI. PBP and Solidarity are at opposition to each other when it comes to NI, Irish nationalism and related issues but not in a way that maps to other parties

RISE are just Solidarity but willing to work with SF in Government.