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St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

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    #242
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Results based on every school, not just the privileged ones who are going total right now.

    Fees Fees Fees for results. lol.

    What the **** are you talking about?


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    #243
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Will the class of 2021 who go through the trauma of the recall for the exam be any better than this result? I doubt it.

    So much talk about the teacher's pet and all that. Honestly this country has to grow the feck up now. The LC is a joke and is not representative of a student's work throughout the year. I really hope that will change now.


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    #244
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    killbillvol2 wrote: »
    What the **** are you talking about?

    Just look at those schools that are complaining, the Leeson Street set up, the grind schools,the German school and so on. You'd have to be a moron not to realise that they know their fees might be curtailed going forward.

    I hope it never returns. It is just a privileged thing for the students, and that was reflected in the results from the non privileged too. Good Oh.


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    #245
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Just look at those schools that are complaining, the Leeson Street set up, the grind schools,the German school and so on.

    The German school are complaining because Germans and children of Germans were marked down (but don't bother actually reading the thread).
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    You'd have to be a moron

    Indeed.


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    #246
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    killbillvol2 wrote: »
    The German school are complaining because Germans and children of Germans were marked down (but don't bother actually reading the thread).



    Indeed.

    Any comment on Gealscoilleanna for LC. They may have been standardised aswell as the German speaking kids.

    But you sound so bitter. Education is for everyone, Deis, Middle Ground and Private.

    It is when the private and the grind schools start moaning you know immediately it is fee related for the future.


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    #247
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,300 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Results based on every school, not just the privileged ones who are going total right now.

    Fees Fees Fees for results. lol.

    So every school gets a set percentage of H1s H2s etc?

    I'm sure that will motivate students to do their best.... or nevermind students, it'll surely motivate the teachers


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    #248
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    So every school gets a set percentage of H1s H2s etc?

    I'm sure that will motivate students to do their best.... or nevermind students, it'll surely motivate the teachers

    Relax will ya.

    Everyone knows that linguistic schools like Killians would expect top grades in German, but who knows what the students are like or their background. Anyway, the teachers would have graded them no? Guess what, they would never get a D1 or whatever the lowest is.

    Moving on, there are Gaelscoilleanna all over with LC students studying all subjects as Gaeilge, be interesting to see in fairness if they were standardised in the Irish language segment. The majority are NOT fee paying just to mention.

    Anyone want to comment?


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    #249
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Anyway, overall most students will get their CAO course tomorrow, or the next one on their list.

    That's good isn't it? It is not all about the doctors and the vets and so on, sure most of them fail the HPAT anyway no matter their result.

    I think this is a great experiment. And should continue.


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    #250
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,300 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Everyone knows that linguistic schools like Killians would expect top grades in German, but who knows what the students are like or their background. Anyway, the teachers would have graded them no? Guess what, they would never get a D1 or whatever the lowest is.
    I don't know what your point is, the teachers graded them according to what they would have achieved, the 'algorithm' saw the average was way out of sync with the rest of the country, and adjusted accordingly, not taking into account the historical results from that school, and dragging students a grade or two down from what they would have gotten, had they sat the exam
    Moving on, there are Gaelscoilleanna all over with LC students studying all subjects as Gaeilge, be interesting to see in fairness if they were standardised in the Irish language segment. The majority are NOT fee paying just to mention.

    Anyone want to comment?
    I'm surprised we haven't heard from them, perhaps the fact they were Gaelscoils was factored into the algorithm, and they got the results they deserved, more or less

    You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding 'fee paying' schools, 'doctors and vets and so on'... let it go.


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    #251
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Relax will ya.

    Everyone knows that linguistic schools like Killians would expect top grades in German, but who knows what the students are like or their background. Anyway, the teachers would have graded them no? Guess what, they would never get a D1 or whatever the lowest is.

    Moving on, there are Gaelscoilleanna all over with LC students studying all subjects as Gaeilge, be interesting to see in fairness if they were standardised in the Irish language segment. The majority are NOT fee paying just to mention.

    Anyone want to comment?

    Yes I'll comment.

    Gaelscoileanna are at an advantage because Irish was included in the composite mark for Junior Cert. This goes towards moderating the Leaving Cert grade.


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    #252
    ReadySteadyGo
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ReadySteadyGo


    Treppen wrote: »
    Yes I'll comment.

    Gaelscoileanna are at an advantage because Irish was included in the composite mark for Junior Cert. This goes towards moderating the Leaving Cert grade.

    Yes. From my reading of the tech docs, It is very likely that they benefited in their overall results.


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    #253
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    From the letter of complaint sent by The Institute of Education.

    Beside the point, but I find it odd how they highlight the need to show 'diversity'.
    1. French at Higher level
    In 2019, the national H1 rate was 6.6%. In the Institute of Education it was 27%. For the 2020 results, the national average H1 rate jumped to 7.7%, an increase of 17% proportionately, while at The Institute the rate fell to 17.9%.

    Applying the national proportionate increase, we would have expected the H1 rate for our students to be 31.5%. 320 students studied French in 2020.


    2. Physics at Higher level
    In 2019 the national H1 rate was 10.9%. In the Institute of Education it was 20%. For the 2020 results, the national average H1 rate jumped to 15.6%, an increase of 43% proportionately, while at The Institute the rate only increased to 22.6%.

    Applying the national proportionate increase, we would have expected the H1 rate for our students to be 28.5%. 208 students studied physics in 2020.

    3. Applied Mathematics at Higher level (we have selected H2 to show the level of diversity)
    In 2019 the national H2 rate was 19%. In the Institute of education it was 23.8%. For the 2020 results, the national average H2 rate jumped to 26%, an increase of 34% proportionately, while at The Institute the rate decreased to 21.8%.

    Applying the national proportionate increase, we would have expected the H2 rate for our students to be 31.89%. 110 students studied Applied Maths in 2020.

    The above is only a small sample of the 26 subjects that we teach in the school.


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    #254
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    On Live Line now.


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    #255
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Anyway, overall most students will get their CAO course tomorrow, or the next one on their list.

    That's good isn't it? It is not all about the doctors and the vets and so on, sure most of them fail the HPAT anyway no matter their result.

    I think this is a great experiment. And should continue.

    It has been an unmitigated disaster to the point where a political intervention resulted in a change to the algorithm at the last minute.

    Teachers either cannot or refused to assess their students accurately as a whole across the country (this isn't to say individual teachers did). This is clear now and no amount of "teachers will do it right" will prove otherwise.

    Considering the jump in points it is safe to say many will not get their first or second choice.


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    #256
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Any comment on Gealscoilleanna for LC. They may have been standardised aswell as the German speaking kids.
    There's probably less complaining because being in a Gaelcholáiste is less of an advantage in the Irish exam than you would think being an a German school would be for the German exam.
    As has been pointed out, parents send their kids to St. Killian's expecting a higher standard of German, are generally quite interested in their kids' education, and then, the German exam is really just a test of whether or not you can read, write, listen with understanding, and speak the language. There's no literature to read and learn. No poetry etc. etc.

    The Irish exam is more like the english exam. You don't expect most of the country to get H1s in english, do you? Or a higher proportion of H1s in english speaking schools? Why? Because it's not just a "can you speak and understand english" test.

    Add to that, while Gaelcholáistí are seen as being higher achieving in general, there are plenty of Gaelcholáistí that are simply schools in Gaeltacht areas, so they're not attracting a particularly high calibre of student or teacher. They're just the only option locally - again, you wouldn't expect a lot of high achieving students there. There are also a handful of DEIS Gaelcholáistí, and there are lot of english speaking schools who have a good standard of Irish, generally. I imagine schools in Galway, Kerry, Donegal, and to a lesser extent, Mayo, Cork, Meath, Waterford, ... produce high marks in Irish to an extent not far behind the Gaelcholáistí, just because they have enough students who have enough contact with Irish to do so.

    None of the above applies to St. Killian's. They are an anomaly, when it comes to German grades in this country, and should have been treated as such, in the interests of fairness.

    I have no sympathy for the grind schools personally, but it's nothing to do with privilege. My stance remains that our job as teachers is that we teach our subjects, and that ought to prepare our students for exams. We do not teach for exams. Grind schools undermine that, so I don't care if they get screwed over here, but St. Killian's (and fee-paying schools that are actually schools, rather than exam-result mills) deserve better, not because of "privilege" but because it's the fair and decent thing to do.

    They're being punished because leftism is politically popular, and for no other reason.


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    #257
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Anyway, overall most students will get their CAO course tomorrow, or the next one on their list.

    That's good isn't it?
    Not if there are students who are not getting them, who would have had they had real exams to sit, no.


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    #258
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭Treppen


    In terms of students going to grind schools I would suggest that many aren't the H1ers, but a little bit below.


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    #259
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,367 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Any comment on Gealscoilleanna for LC. They may have been standardised aswell as the German speaking kids.

    But you sound so bitter. Education is for everyone, Deis, Middle Ground and Private.

    It is when the private and the grind schools start moaning you know immediately it is fee related for the future.
    No, it’s because their pupils are being discriminated against, while other schools are achieving higher marks that they would have achieved , their pupils are receiving lower.


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    #260
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 11,941 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Bruce college in Cork are complaining now too

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40047530.html

    It has been a dismal week, one of the worst,” said Mr Landers, adding that 70% of the school’s students saw their calculated grades reduced by the Department of Education’s standardisation process.


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    #261
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Quote from the letter:

    "How come some students awarded the same calculated mark can be given 2 entirely different grades where there is a deviation of 2 grade levels?"

    Anyone have any idea how standardisation can lead to this? We might get closer to the answer tomorrow when students get to see the mark they were awarded my the school.


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    #262
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Quote from the letter:

    "How come some students awarded the same calculated mark can be given 2 entirely different grades where there is a deviation of 2 grade levels?"

    Anyone have any idea how standardisation can lead to this? We might get closer to the answer tomorrow when students get to see the mark they were awarded my the school.

    They took Junior Cert results into account.


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    #263
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Treppen wrote: »
    They took Junior Cert results into account.

    Not for individuals as AFAIK, just for school.


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    #264
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    RealJohn wrote: »
    There's probably less complaining because being in a Gaelcholáiste is less of an advantage in the Irish exam than you would think being an a German school would be for the German exam.
    As has been pointed out, parents send their kids to St. Killian's expecting a higher standard of German, are generally quite interested in their kids' education, and then, the German exam is really just a test of whether or not you can read, write, listen with understanding, and speak the language. There's no literature to read and learn. No poetry etc. etc.

    The Irish exam is more like the english exam. You don't expect most of the country to get H1s in english, do you? Or a higher proportion of H1s in english speaking schools? Why? Because it's not just a "can you speak and understand english" test.

    Add to that, while Gaelcholáistí are seen as being higher achieving in general, there are plenty of Gaelcholáistí that are simply schools in Gaeltacht areas, so they're not attracting a particularly high calibre of student or teacher. They're just the only option locally - again, you wouldn't expect a lot of high achieving students there. There are also a handful of DEIS Gaelcholáistí, and there are lot of english speaking schools who have a good standard of Irish, generally. I imagine schools in Galway, Kerry, Donegal, and to a lesser extent, Mayo, Cork, Meath, Waterford, ... produce high marks in Irish to an extent not far behind the Gaelcholáistí, just because they have enough students who have enough contact with Irish to do so.

    None of the above applies to St. Killian's. They are an anomaly, when it comes to German grades in this country, and should have been treated as such, in the interests of fairness.

    I have no sympathy for the grind schools personally, but it's nothing to do with privilege. My stance remains that our job as teachers is that we teach our subjects, and that ought to prepare our students for exams. We do not teach for exams. Grind schools undermine that, so I don't care if they get screwed over here, but St. Killian's (and fee-paying schools that are actually schools, rather than exam-result mills) deserve better, not because of "privilege" but because it's the fair and decent thing to do.

    They're being punished because leftism is politically popular, and for no other reason.

    So it’s a left wing conspiracy now?


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    #265
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    ted1 wrote: »
    No, it’s because their pupils are being discriminated against, while other schools are achieving higher marks that they would have achieved , their pupils are receiving lower.

    Discrimination against middle class privilege kids in private schools. We’ve heard it all now.


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    #266
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,585 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    Discrimination against middle class privilege kids in private schools. We’ve heard it all now.

    Ah leave it out wouldja, it's clear you have a bugbear against a fee charging school.
    Teachers were asked for their professional advice and then it was ignored.


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    #267
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,300 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    Discrimination against middle class privilege kids in private schools. We’ve heard it all now.

    What would you call it so?


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    #268
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    So it’s a left wing conspiracy now?
    What points do you disagree with? I made several.


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    #269
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    RealJohn wrote: »
    What points do you disagree with? I made several.

    The one where you claimed it was a left wing conspiracy.


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    #270
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Treppen wrote: »
    Ah leave it out wouldja, it's clear you have a bugbear against a fee charging school.
    Teachers were asked for their professional advice and then it was ignored.

    Ignoring advice is not discrimination.

    I don't have a problem with fee paying schools, I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.


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    #271
    killbillvol2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭killbillvol2


    Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »
    Ignoring advice is not discrimination.

    I don't have a problem with fee paying schools, I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

    Wrong again.

    You have a problem with this particular school and a massive chip on your shoulder.


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