St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

v638sg7k1a92bx

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Wrong again.

You have a problem with this particular school and a massive chip on your shoulder.

Ok then "i'm wrong"

Treppen

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Ignoring advice is not discrimination.

I don't have a problem with fee paying schools, I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

So your saying that no students were discriminated against and the system was 100% fair?

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

The one where you claimed it was a left wing conspiracy.

Those were your words, not mine. I never said anything about a left wing conspiracy. There was nothing conspiratorial about it. It was a populist decision.

What else? If that was all you can disagree with, why are you still arguing?

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

... I have a problem with some of the most privileged people in society claiming they're being discriminated against.

That's what's happening though, in this case. Do you have a problem with them claiming it, or with the fact that it's actually true?

Bobtheman

Legal action will decide this. Unfortunately the department made the wrong call. Cancelling exam. I'm still trying to figure out the system they operated.
The department has shifted last ten years towards the needs of the disadvantaged unfortunately without enough cash.
I'm not really surprised at this. Interesting to see how FG handles this. Unfortunately for FG they don't get a huge amount of lowe class votes !

v638sg7k1a92bx

RealJohn wrote: »

That's what's happening though, in this case. Do you have a problem with them claiming it, or with the fact that it's actually true?

You cry foul over some warped sense of discrimination against one of the most privileged groups in Ireland yet students from lower income families are discriminated against EVERY year in a points based leaving cert system that is entirely stacked against them and weighed brutally in favour of students who attend fee paying schools and not a dickey bird from teachers or posters on here.

Interesting I note that some of the posters on this thread were advocating affirmative action in the U.S. when commenting around the blm protests. Consider this a form of affirmative action in Ireland, might make you feel better.

rainbowtrout

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

You cry foul over some warped sense of discrimination against one of the most privileged groups in Ireland yet students from lower income families are discriminated against EVERY year in a points based leaving cert system that is entirely stacked against them and weighed brutally in favour of students who attend fee paying schools and not a dickey bird from teachers or posters on here.

Except it's not. The students sit exams anonymously, the system is not weighed in favour of students from fee paying schools. Some students are priveleged because their parents can afford grinds, extra curricular activities and other resources in their home lives. Some of these attend fee paying schools because their parents can afford it. Some of them have parents who are well educated and have good jobs and can pay for all of this. Some of these students are academically bright and will achieve wherever they go. They happen to go to fee paying schools and there is a concentration of them in one schools so the results are above average.

Like was said here a few days ago, if you took the entire student body out of one of these fee paying schools and swapped it with a lower achieving deis school you would still more or less get the same results because they have the supports and resources outside school.

You could send the 400 deis students to the fee paying school and they still wouldn't have the resources outside school to achieve to the levels you are magically attributing to simply attending a fee paying school.

The school that has finished top in the country in the feeder schools for third level is Cnoc na Labhras/Laurel Hill in Limerick City. It's not a fee paying school. However it is a Gaelscoil. Think about that for a second. Many students who have some form of special needs have an exemption in Irish, so they will avoid attending a Gaelscoil. Learning through Irish is an extra layer of work if it is not your first language and Limerick City is not a Gaeltacht area so you are choosing (for your child) to add an extra layer of work to their education. Parents that are choosing to send their children their are proactively choosing this type of education. That automatically filters out a subsection of the potential student cohort who have some learning difficulties and selects for students who will work, because they have to just to understand what is going on in class. It's not a magic formula.

v638sg7k1a92bx

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Except it's not. The students sit exams anonymously, the system is not weighed in favour of students from fee paying schools. Some students are priveleged because their parents can afford grinds, extra curricular activities and other resources in their home lives. Some of these attend fee paying schools because their parents can afford it. Some of them have parents who are well educated and have good jobs and can pay for all of this. Some of these students are academically bright and will achieve wherever they go. They happen to go to fee paying schools and there is a concentration of them in one schools so the results are above average.

Like was said here a few days ago, if you took the entire student body out of one of these fee paying schools and swapped it with a lower achieving deis school you would still more or less get the same results because they have the supports and resources outside school.

You could send the 400 deis students to the fee paying school and they still wouldn't have the resources outside school to achieve to the levels you are magically attributing to simply attending a fee paying school.

The school that has finished top in the country in the feeder schools for third level is Cnoc na Labhras/Laurel Hill in Limerick City. It's not a fee paying school. However it is a Gaelscoil. Think about that for a second. Many students who have some form of special needs have an exemption in Irish, so they will avoid attending a Gaelscoil. Learning through Irish is an extra layer of work if it is not your first language and Limerick City is not a Gaeltacht area so you are choosing (for your child) to add an extra layer of work to their education. Parents that are choosing to send their children their are proactively choosing this type of education. That automatically filters out a subsection of the potential student cohort who have some learning difficulties and selects for students who will work, because they have to just to understand what is going on in class. It's not a magic formula.

Interesting word salad but the data would suggest otherwise.

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Interesting word salad but the data would suggest otherwise.

What data? Feel free to provide specific examples.

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

You cry foul over some warped sense of discrimination against one of the most privileged groups in Ireland yet students from lower income families are discriminated against EVERY year in a points based leaving cert system that is entirely stacked against them and weighed brutally in favour of students who attend fee paying schools and not a dickey bird from teachers or posters on here.

If you don’t understand what discrimination means, you’re not equipped to have this discussion. If you think anything you’ve said in this paragraph is due to discrimination, you don’t understand what discrimination means.
People aren’t equal in every way. That does not mean that the system is discriminatory. This year, it was. Normally, it’s not.

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Interesting I note that some of the posters on this thread were advocating affirmative action in the U.S. when commenting around the blm protests. Consider this a form of affirmative action in Ireland, might make you feel better.

Some people might have said that, but I’m not one of them, so how about you address the points I’ve made, rather than lazily lumping me in with a group you think you have the jump on, when I’m not in that group.

v638sg7k1a92bx

RealJohn wrote: »

If you don’t understand what discrimination means, you’re not equipped to have this discussion. If you think anything you’ve said in this paragraph is due to discrimination, you don’t understand what discrimination means.
People aren’t equal in every way. That does not mean that the system is discriminatory. This year, it was. Normally, it’s not.


Some people might have said that, but I’m not one of them, so how about you address the points I’ve made, rather than lazily lumping me in with a group you think you have the jump on, when I’m not in that group.

OMG, how could you be so deluded. The system only discriminates against the and most privileged in society?

I think you seriously need to check your privilege.

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

The system only discriminates against the and most privileged in society?

That’s the second time you’ve misrepresented me. If you can’t make an honest argument, it’s a good bet that you actually know you’re wrong.
Are you capable of addressing what I said honestly, with an intelligent rebuttal, or are you just a wind-up merchant?
I’m not going to tell you what the only other option is because it’s against the charter, but if it’s not 1 or 2, it’s definitely 3.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Treppen wrote: »

Well that wasn't me anyway so maybe I'm free to speak now...

Every teacher including yourself should feel aggrieved if a student was discriminated against, no matter where they come from.

If you think it's fine then you are probably thinking the system is fair. So you must also be happy to know there were schools who probably found out how to manipulate this 'fair' system... quite a few of them fee-charging. Not only that, but certain students were marked down by schools to maximise the 625s.
You won't hear about these on the radio btw, especially not this year.

You still happy with the system?

I've never been happy with "the system" I just find it amusing that people from certain quarters are crying discrimination when the system has been stacked in their favour at the expense of others for literally decades.

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I've never been happy with "the system" I just find it amusing that people from certain quarters are crying discrimination when the system has been stacked in their favour at the expense of others for literally decades.

This continues to be untrue though, no matter how many times you say it. Could you please explain, in clear, unbiased terms, how the sytem has been "stacked in favour" of anyone, "at the expense of" anyone "for literally decades"?

It is very clear that there was discrimination in the results this year. You have claimed repeatedly that the exams discriminate every year, but I haven't seen you provide a single example. Other than the fact that the purpose of exams is discrimination (ie. discriminating between people, based on their level of knowledge in a given subject area), how have the exams been historically biased against any group (other than maybe against immigrants who can't speak english or Irish)?

v638sg7k1a92bx

RealJohn wrote: »

This continues to be untrue though, no matter how many times you say it. Could you please explain, in clear, unbiased terms, how the sytem has been "stacked in favour" of anyone, "at the expense of" anyone "for literally decades"?

It is very clear that there was discrimination in the results this year. You have claimed repeatedly that the exams discriminate every year, but I haven't seen you provide a single example. Other than the fact that the purpose of exams is discrimination (ie. discriminating between people, based on their level of knowledge in a given subject area), how have the exams been historically biased against any group (other than maybe against immigrants who can't speak english or Irish)?

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

killbillvol2

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

The irony.

rainbowtrout

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

So you're just here to troll because you don't actually have a point that you can back up?

RealJohn

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I don't have the time or the crayons to explain it to you.

In other words, you can't. That's fine. You're wrong. I know you're wrong. You know you're wrong. Everyone else knows you're wrong. Go be wrong somewhere else.

spurious

Let's leave Black Lives Matter and crayons out of it and stay on topic.

Bobtheman

The CAO points system is unfair to all students.
A guy who loves say accountancy/ business might find it hard to get into UCD commerce. There are now at least lots of Back door routes now at least.
However it needs to be said alot of working class kids don't bother their hole working. It's not simply grinds and Private schools. It's hard work bred into them.
In our school they get free books and study but you are hard pressed to get a lot of them to do any.

Tow

St Kilian's have taken a High Court case

Leaving Cert students at fee-paying south Dublin school launch High Court case against Government:
https://www.thejournal.ie/st-kilians-german-school-calculated-grades-high-court-5212814-Sep2020/