Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Assetbacked · 13-09-2020 01:04PM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-rejects-senior-doctor-s-comments-covid-19-is-less-severe-than-annual-flu-1.4353641?mode=amp

A doctor speaking sense and the inept, incompetent and draconian civil servants of the HSE management Dismissing it. I have a doctor friend in the Mater and the feeling among them is that this really isn't much worse than the flu and isn't generally that harmful. This thread is definitely the thread reflecting sensical views in the chaotic and ridiculously OTT covid reaction by our politicians.

Charles Babbage · 13-09-2020 01:09PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-rejects-senior-doctor-s-comments-covid-19-is-less-severe-than-annual-flu-1.4353641?mode=amp

A doctor speaking sense and the inept, incompetent and draconian civil servants of the HSE management Dismissing it. I have a doctor friend in the Mater and the feeling among them is that this really isn't much worse than the flu and isn't generally that harmful. This thread is definitely the thread reflecting sensical views in the chaotic and ridiculously OTT covid reaction by our politicians.

What department in the Mater is he or she in, so I can avoid it if I fall ill?

bush · 13-09-2020 01:11PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

What department in the Mater is he or she in, so I can avoid it if I fall ill?

You know better than a doctor that actually worked during all this?

Plumbthedepths · 13-09-2020 01:25PM

bush wrote: »

You know better than a doctor that actually worked during all this?

Don't ya know boards is full of experts.

Loafing Oaf · 13-09-2020 01:27PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Don't ya know boards is full of experts.

And fictitious 'doctor friends'...

CruelSummer · 13-09-2020 03:33PM

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0912/1164821-hse-response-to-herd-immunity-comments/

There is a distinct lack of calling the HSE to task on their statement 'dismissing' one of their own Senior doctors who would not make his statement lightly.

"A HSE statement added: "The WHO declared a Covid-19 pandemic on 11 March.

"There have been over 28 million cases and 900,000 deaths worldwide, many among older and vulnerable populations."

What exactly does this mean? Daily death rates around the world on any given day pre-Covid should be taken into account, then excess deaths over a period of 2020 for an accurate picture. Also if the susceptible populations are 'older and vulnerable', why is Ireland under such restrictions? Why would we be a more vulnerable population than any other? Is there something I've missed here re Ireland's general health status?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Ireland one of the youngest if not THE youngest populations in Europe...

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 03:38PM

We have one doctor saying that, and every other doctor in the country and the WHO and every other medical advisory group on the planet saying the opposite. Hmmmm I wonder who we should we believe??? Should I believe the guy who says things that I agree with or should I look at the weight of evidence on both sides and make a logical decision. It’s a real head scratcher that’s for sure..........

I was fully expecting to see that posted here. That’s known as confirmation bias. If you don’t know what it is google it.

Purple Mountain · 13-09-2020 03:40PM

Can someone answer this for me?
How come on social media there's constant posts from celebrities in the UK in nightclubs and bars bumping and grinding against each other like it's last year?
What are the restrictions there in regards to pubs/clubs?

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 03:45PM

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Can someone answer this for me?
How come on social media there's constant posts from celebrities in the UK in nightclubs and bars bumping and grinding against each other like it's last year?
What are the restrictions there in regards to pubs/clubs?

Pubs are open clubs are shut in the UK. I believe clubs are open in Greece and also in Russia. Just because they are brits doesn’t mean they are in the uk.

Purple Mountain · 13-09-2020 03:51PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Pubs are open clubs are shut in the UK. I believe clubs are open in Greece and also in Russia. Just because they are brits doesn’t mean they are in the uk.

They are definitely in the UK. They post their whole lives online so it's easy see where they are.

CruelSummer · 13-09-2020 04:27PM

MadYaker wrote: »

We have one doctor saying that, and every other doctor in the country and the WHO and every other medical advisory group on the planet saying the opposite. Hmmmm I wonder who we should we believe??? Should I believe the guy who says things that I agree with or should I look at the weight of evidence on both sides and make a logical decision. It’s a real head scratcher that’s for sure..........

I was fully expecting to see that posted here. That’s known as confirmation bias. If you don’t know what it is google it.

I'm afraid MadYaker...when it comes to confirmation bias, I'm of the opinion those who want to believe their point of view will in relation to this crisis. The problem being facts are being lost in the process. It shouldn't be one group against another, our country is launching itself towards an irrecoverable position both economically, healthwise (non Covid related) and mentally. I know many older people, whose mental health is in tatters due to this. They are contradicting the advice on a daily basis to stay sane, but they still watch RTÉ as their news and information source, which should be investigated along with other media outlets on their harassment, fear mongering, and hysteria building actions during this crisis. Who can forget George Lee saying 'reopening was so scary'...what a pathetic statement.

Can you stand over that HSE statement? Or the fact that 6 month into the pandemic, we are still banging the same drum re 'all in this together'? We flattened the curve and then some, but still we're treating this illness as an Ebola type disease, rather than a Respiratory virus with a fatality rate of 0.4% at worst. The fact is what the doctor said was true. People over 70 are seriously affected by Covid, they are not part of the working population. I do believe they should be protected, but the HSE statement seems to confirm that protecting this vulnerable group deems it ok to destroy the lives of the general population of Ireland in the process. It is also claiming Ireland in general is a 'Vulnerable population'. How so? I want the facts in relation to this, we deserve them. How can any Governmental Department stand over this statement?
I also know people in Dublin hospitals who are extremely sceptical of the current narrative being painted by the HSE and NPHET...

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 05:21PM

Purple Mountain wrote: »

They are definitely in the UK. They post their whole lives online so it's easy see where they are.

The law in the UK is that nightclubs are not allowed to open. Id suggest ignoring social media as a source of news on anything other than what your friend had for dinner.

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 05:47PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

I'm afraid MadYaker...when it comes to confirmation bias, I'm of the opinion those who want to believe their point of view will in relation to this crisis. The problem being facts are being lost in the process. It shouldn't be one group against another, our country is launching itself towards an irrecoverable position both economically, healthwise (non Covid related) and mentally. I know many older people, whose mental health is in tatters due to this. They are contradicting the advice on a daily basis to stay sane, but they still watch RTÉ as their news and information source, which should be investigated along with other media outlets on their harassment, fear mongering, and hysteria building actions during this crisis. Who can forget George Lee saying 'reopening was so scary'...what a pathetic statement.

Can you stand over that HSE statement? Or the fact that 6 month into the pandemic, we are still banging the same drum re 'all in this together'? We flattened the curve and then some, but still we're treating this illness as an Ebola type disease, rather than a Respiratory virus with a fatality rate of 0.4% at worst. The fact is what the doctor said was true. People over 70 are seriously affected by Covid, they are not part of the working population. I do believe they should be protected, but the HSE statement seems to confirm that protecting this vulnerable group deems it ok to destroy the lives of the general population of Ireland in the process. It is also claiming Ireland in general is a 'Vulnerable population'. How so? I want the facts in relation to this, we deserve them. How can any Governmental Department stand over this statement?
I also know people in Dublin hospitals who are extremely sceptical of the current narrative being painted by the HSE and NPHET...

Are they staying sane or is their mental health in tatters? Which is it?

I actually can't find the statement from the HSE, only various media outlets reports on it, if you can link the statement on its own in full id like to read it. So I can't say whether id stand over it or not until I've actually read it in full and not just bits of it from media outlets.

As for the other things this Dr Martin Freely had to say well, most of it has been debunked already. He seems to think we should purposely expose young people to the virus so we can build up "herd immunity" in the population. This was a suggestion at the beginning of the pandemic but it is not a course of action that was pursued by any country for various reasons (you may remember a fairly spectacular U turn by the UK government back in february or march). The main reason is that we don't know what level of immunity infected people have after they recover and we don't know how long that immunity lasts so I don't understand how anybody could think it is a good idea to try and achieve something that we aren't even sure is possible. Quotes from him are in this article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-rejects-senior-doctor-s-comments-covid-19-is-less-severe-than-annual-flu-1.4353641

As for the second paragraph, if this was an ebola type disease we wouldn't have a problem because people who get ebola tend to be so ill that they are bed ridden so can't spread it in the community, you may remember the ebola outbreak in africa while ago, it didn't spread all over the world it didn't even spread all over africa. So although ebola makes people more ill than this coronavirus it's ability to spread is limited by the severity of the illness it causes. So in global terms this virus actually is much more dangerous. Switch to coronavirus and it's characteristics make it much easier for it to spread far and wide hence we have a pandemic.

In Madrid, New York and Milan they did antibody testing and found that around 20 - 25% of the population had been infected during the initial surges they experienced there and that was enough to overwhelm their health systems which are far FAR better and bigger than ours. Also worth mentioning that it wasn't only over 70s dying in those tents outside the hospitals. Herd immunity requires 60 - 70% of the population be infected or vaccinated.

You talk about media hysteria and fear mongering and in the same paragraph you say that the lives of the general population in Ireland are being destroyed which is frankly ridiculous. You are doing exactly what you criticize, that is a hysterical statement. What evidence do you have that the lives of the general population are being destroyed?

Maybe you have a different definition of vulnerable but yes, it is a fact to state that we are all vulnerable, anyone who can be infected is, by definition, vulnerable. Do you feel you have some sort of natural immunity to this? If not you're vulnerable.

We're hovering around 40 - 50 free beds in ICUs all over the country for a population of 4.5 million people. If you want to let this virus rip through the population unhindered when push comes to shove I reckon you will be on your own.

CruelSummer · 13-09-2020 06:12PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Are they staying sane or is their mental health in tatters? Which is it?

I actually can't find the statement from the HSE, only various media outlets reports on it, if you can link the statement on its own in full id like to read it. So I can't say whether id stand over it or not until I've actually read it in full and not just bits of it from media outlets.

As for the other things this Dr Martin Freely had to say well, most of it has been debunked already. He seems to think we should purposely expose young people to the virus so we can build up "herd immunity" in the population. This was a suggestion at the beginning of the pandemic but it is not a course of action that was pursued by any country for various reasons (you may remember a fairly spectacular U turn by the UK government back in february or march). The main reason is that we don't know what level of immunity infected people have after they recover and we don't know how long that immunity lasts so I don't understand how anybody could think it is a good idea to try and achieve something that we aren't even sure is possible. Quotes from him are in this article https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/hse-rejects-senior-doctor-s-comments-covid-19-is-less-severe-than-annual-flu-1.4353641

As for the second paragraph, if this was an ebola type disease we wouldn't have a problem because people who get ebola tend to be so ill that they are bed ridden so can't spread it in the community, you may remember the ebola outbreak in africa while ago, it didn't spread all over the world it didn't even spread all over africa. So although ebola makes people more ill than this coronavirus it's ability to spread is limited by the severity of the illness it causes. So in global terms this virus actually is much more dangerous. Switch to coronavirus and it's characteristics make it much easier for it to spread far and wide hence we have a pandemic.

In Madrid, New York and Milan they did antibody testing and found that around 20 - 25% of the population had been infected during the initial surges they experienced there and that was enough to overwhelm their health systems which are far FAR better and bigger than ours. Also worth mentioning that it wasn't only over 70s dying in those tents outside the hospitals. Herd immunity requires 60 - 70% of the population be infected or vaccinated.

You talk about media hysteria and fear mongering and in the same paragraph you say that the lives of the general population in Ireland are being destroyed which is frankly ridiculous. You are doing exactly what you criticize, that is a hysterical statement. What evidence do you have that the lives of the general population are being destroyed?

Maybe you have a different definition of vulnerable but yes, it is a fact to state that we are all vulnerable, anyone who can be infected is. Do you feel you have some sort of natural immunity to this? If not you're vulnerable.

We're hovering around 40 - 50 free beds in ICUs all over the country for a population of 4.5 million people. If you want to let this virus rip through the population unhindered when push comes to shove I reckon you will be on your own.

We’ve 40-50 free ICU beds if we don’t prepare properly which we should have 6 months ago.
You are also putting words in my mouth re ‘letting this virus rip through the population’. If you look back on this thread, you will see I’ve made many suggestions on how to reopen businesses including social distancing.
You’re refusing to acknowledge the HSE statement despite the link provided to RTÉ news with the direct quote from them provided in the article.
Look at RTÉ news this evening again - more hysterical obsession over the numbers & Covid negativity. Where is the daily obsession over cancer diagnosis, flu deaths, vomiting bug deaths, and other viruses and infections vulnerable people can contract. Do you think we should be under lockdown to protect the vulnerable from all viruses or just Covid?
Also Spanish and French hospitals aren’t even close to full, there’s just a lot of ‘cases’ found just to increased testing, many of which are asymptomatic like here. Do you support an indefinite continuation of these restrictive measures, daily Covid obsession, if the hospital numbers remain low? Why are you assuming that needs to be the case?
Do you believe the PCR testing is still accurate and is finding all present infections and no past infections which has been mooted in a recent article in The Lancet?

Purple Mountain · 13-09-2020 06:12PM

MadYaker wrote: »

The law in the UK is that nightclubs are not allowed to open. Id suggest ignoring social media as a source of news on anything other than what your friend had for dinner.

It's just quite galling to see them (in disco bars?) acting like nothing is happening in the world. Meanwhile if I want a Sunday alcohol beverage, I feel like I'm living in Gilead to have to go and get one.

JoeyJJ · 13-09-2020 06:17PM

Some big gatherings planned here in the next few weeks little Johnny needs a bouncy castle and 60 people around for drinks in a few houses to celebrate their first holy

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 06:29PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

We’ve 40-50 free ICU beds if we don’t prepare properly which we should have 6 months ago.
You are also putting words in my mouth re ‘letting this virus rip through the population’. If you look back on this thread, you will see I’ve made many suggestions on how to reopen businesses including social distancing.
You’re refusing to acknowledge the HSE statement despite the link provided to RTÉ news with the direct quote from them provided in the article.
Look at RTÉ news this evening again - more hysterical obsession over the numbers & Covid negativity.

Where is the daily obsession over cancer diagnosis, flu deaths(we have vaccines for influenza), vomiting bug deaths, and other viruses and infections vulnerable people can contract. Do you think we should be under lockdown to protect the vulnerable from all viruses or just Covid?

Also Spanish and French hospitals aren’t even close to full, there’s just a lot of ‘cases’ found just to increased testing, many of which are asymptomatic like here. Do you support an indefinite continuation of these restrictive measures, daily Covid obsession, if the hospital numbers remain low? Why are you assuming that needs to be the case?

Do you believe the PCR testing is still accurate and is finding all present infections and no past infections which has been mooted in a recent article in The Lancet?

Put in paragraphs so I can address each point. I stopped watching RTE years ago. I would suggest anyone who is bothered by their coverage do the same.

Covid isn't the only thing that puts people in ICU, we can't and aren't ignoring other illnesses. We have to minimize the impacts of covid so that all those who need treatments for all illnesses can get access to the treatment they need. We could probably create 100 ICU beds in a month. What we can't do is magic up 100 doctors and ICU nurses to look after the people in those beds.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, apologies, I was actually talking about the doctor who caused this stir. That is what he was proposing and you seemed to be in agreement with at least part of what he had to say.

I'm not sure why there would be hysteria over cancer diagnoses, flu deaths or vomiting bug deaths (do people die of that?) since neither one of those on it's own has the potential to overwhelm the health system. This coronavirus has demonstrated it's ability to do just that in countries that are far better resourced than us. Also worth mentioning that our efforts to control this coronavirus will also reduce the number of influenza cases we see this year which can only be a good thing.

No I don't support an indefinite continuation of these restrictions and I don't think anyone does. Once we have a safe and effective vaccine and the virus is eliminated the restrictions will no longer be necessary.

I have a microbiology degree and studied PCR so yes I absolutely do believe it's accurate. It is tried and tested. A faster method would be nice but it's the best we've got. If you can link the Lancet article I'll read as I'm always open to new information.

Also based on what I read on RTE website, yes, I would be in agreement with that statement if it's the one from Dr Colm Henry we're talking about.

Hospital and case numbers are where they are as a direct result of the actions we have taken and continue to take and I think we need to keep hospitals as free as possible considering we are heading into flu season when hospitals are normally close to full in normal years, this year we have coronavirus to deal with also. So I see empty hospitals as an achievement rather than a sign that something is wrong.

Assetbacked · 13-09-2020 06:57PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

And fictitious 'doctor friends'...

Nope but if you need to tell yourself that to keep your little ignorant mind safe, go ahead.

volchitsa · 13-09-2020 06:59PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

What department in the Mater is he or she in, so I can avoid it if I fall ill?

That's what a doctor over here tells me too (I'm not in Ireland, I'm on the continent) - he thinks we need now not to over react (doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in March, but we've learned a lot about how to handle it better, and the cost of another lockdown would be massive)

road_high · 13-09-2020 07:07PM

volchitsa wrote: »

That's what a doctor over here tells me too (I'm not in Ireland, I'm on the continent) - he thinks we need now not to over react (doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in March, but we've learned a lot about how to handle it better, and the cost of another lockdown would be massive)

Nah what we need is more fear, panic and hysteria.

pjohnson · 13-09-2020 07:09PM

road_high wrote: »

Nah what we need is more fear, panic and hysteria.

Yep. Thats why some are claiming that GP's now refuse to see patients. Aswell aa creating imaginary doctor friends.

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 07:11PM

Purple Mountain wrote: »

It's just quite galling to see them (in disco bars?) acting like nothing is happening in the world. Meanwhile if I want a Sunday alcohol beverage, I feel like I'm living in Gilead to have to go and get one.

Delete your social media accounts. It will make you happier.

Gael23 · 13-09-2020 09:00PM

I’m not sure I agree with keeping schools open at any cost

CruelSummer · 13-09-2020 09:25PM

[/quote] If you can link the Lancet article I'll read as I'm always open to new information.[/quote]

MadYaker I posted The Lancet article on this thread a week or two back, don’t have it to hand right now. Will repost again when I’ve more time.

hmmm · 13-09-2020 10:28PM

Declining fatality rates in Germany
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/declining-covid-19-case-fatality-rates-across-all-ages-analysis-of-german-data/

Just goes to show what we've always said. Delaying this will allow more time for better treatments and better public health measures (masks etc.) There are several new treatments under development, and vaccine trials will be reporting soon.

No thanks to most on this thread who would have put thousands of Irish people into ICU if given their way.

If we can keep numbers down over Winter, we'll be in great shape for a big recovery in 2021.

13-09-2020 10:45PM

hmmm wrote: »

Declining fatality rates in Germany
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/declining-covid-19-case-fatality-rates-across-all-ages-analysis-of-german-data/

Just goes to show what we've always said. Delaying this will allow more time for better treatments and better public health measures (masks etc.) There are several new treatments under development, and vaccine trials will be reporting soon.

No thanks to most on this thread who would have put thousands of Irish people into ICU if given their way.

If we can keep numbers down over Winter, we'll be in great shape for a big recovery in 2021.

Perhaps countries figured out that protecting nursing homes pretty much makes Covid a non issue.

I don’t believe you answered the other day, but is your salary / job under any threat?

FintanMcluskey · 13-09-2020 10:47PM

hmmm wrote: »

No thanks to most on this thread who would have put thousands of Irish people into ICU if given their way.

If we can keep numbers down over Winter, we'll be in great shape for a big recovery in 2021.

Utter nonsense. And Ill keep calling this rubbish out.

ICUs were only overran in regions with very old populations. Luckily Ireland don't have any densely populated regions with high age profiles like Lombardy which had 10m citizens in an area the size of Munster.

What big recovery are you on about in 2021?

BTW why will none of the hysteria brigade admit defeat and accept Sweden have lead the way?

MadYaker · 13-09-2020 11:04PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Utter nonsense. And Ill keep calling this rubbish out.

ICUs were only overran in regions with very old populations. Luckily Ireland don't have any densely populated regions with high age profiles like Lombardy which had 10m citizens in an area the size of Munster.

What big recovery are you on about in 2021?

BTW why will none of the hysteria brigade admit defeat and accept Sweden have lead the way?

Sweden made the most of their resources, we have to make the most of ours.

FintanMcluskey · 13-09-2020 11:10PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Sweden made the most of their resources, we have to make the most of ours.

The resources of democracy??

pjohnson · 14-09-2020 08:32AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Utter nonsense. And Ill keep calling this rubbish out.

ICUs were only overran in regions with very old populations. Luckily Ireland don't have any densely populated regions with high age profiles like Lombardy which had 10m citizens in an area the size of Munster.

What big recovery are you on about in 2021?

BTW why will none of the hysteria brigade admit defeat and accept Sweden have lead the way?

The hysteria brigade champion Sweden. When will the hysteria brigade accept GP's arent turning away patients? Why do you guys fearmonger.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings