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Parkrun..

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    #9782
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    If the report they have commissioned is convincing enough about the lack of transmission happening in outdoor environments then they will have something to go to government and state authorities with. Could really do with New Zealand being opened up again first though, or at least their rugby season to keep going and have spectators in stadiums. Might just be a couple of Australian states that get the go ahead first though.


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    #9783
    diceyreilly
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭diceyreilly


    Our government at the moment won’t allow more then 15 players train together.
    Say we are a long way off parkrun unless there’s a huge swing and they say just get on with it ( outdoors.


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    #9784
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    diceyreilly wrote: »
    Our government at the moment won’t allow more then 15 players train together.
    Say we are a long way off parkrun unless there’s a huge swing and they say just get on with it ( outdoors.

    If it is still restricted to 15 players in another months time then I'll be very surprised. Things will continue to change quite quickly as just a couple of months ago people weren't meant to leave the house. At some point it will be 50 people in a group, then 250, then 500 then parkrun will restart. Things might very well go backwards of course and lockdown returns, but it won't stay static with the current restrictions permanently.


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    #9785
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    robinph wrote: »
    If it is still restricted to 15 players in another months time then I'll be very surprised. Things will continue to change quite quickly as just a couple of months ago people weren't meant to leave the house. At some point it will be 50 people in a group, then 250, then 500 then parkrun will restart. Things might very well go backwards of course and lockdown returns, but it won't stay static with the current restrictions permanently.

    Not sure about that. Our government hinting at national lockdowns again


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    #9786
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users Posts: 2,851 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    average_runner wrote: »
    Not sure about that. Our government hinting at national lockdowns again

    That might just be for Phil Hogan


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    #9787
    OOnegative
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭OOnegative


    https://blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/09/07/return-of-parkrun-announcement/


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    #9788
    jimmii
    Registered Users Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    Good to see it looking like it might be relatively soon. I wonder if they will do anything to try discourage those from just over the borders from attending.


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    #9789
    Duzzie
    Registered Users Posts: 722 ✭✭✭Duzzie


    OOnegative wrote: »
    https://blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/09/07/return-of-parkrun-announcement/

    Opening English parkruns in advance is Scotland and Wales doesn't seem like a wise move. No word on Ireland.


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    #9790
    jimmii
    Registered Users Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    Duzzie wrote: »
    Opening English parkruns in advance is Scotland and Wales doesn't seem like a wise move. No word on Ireland.

    Does seem bizarre alright. Border runs will be pretty busy safe to say!


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    #9791
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    jimmii wrote: »
    Does seem bizarre alright. Border runs will be pretty busy safe to say!

    Being on one side of the border between England and Wales I'd not be overly concerned about numbers at the local events being overwhelmed. Would be if it was the other way round though. There is a couple of relatively small events on the Welsh side which could struggle if they were to open first, but the events on the English side here I think will barely notice an influx of numbers and there are enough of them that any mass influx will be spread around the area a good bit. Obviously will be different in other areas along the border, but along the E/W border I'm at the highest density population part of it.

    My main problem is we'd been trying to figure out which event might work best for us with a non buggy riding 5 year old now and which course would work best for one of us to run whilst the other picked up stones with the kid, and that I'd then have the best chance of catching the tail marshal before the line. Was thinking a couple of the Welsh ones would work best for us, now need to rethink that idea.


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    #9792
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    October is far away.still, alot could happen before then. Alot of cases today. William's has been a bit careless on Twitter lately in my opinion and I think this was another poor judgement call as 6 weeks is a long time.


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    #9793
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Griffeen is pretty crowded every sat morning with park runners doing their 5k st 9.30. A big group doing it


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    #9794
    jimmii
    Registered Users Posts: 14,810 ✭✭✭✭jimmii


    robinph wrote: »
    Being on one side of the border between England and Wales I'd not be overly concerned about numbers at the local events being overwhelmed. Would be if it was the other way round though. There is a couple of relatively small events on the Welsh side which could struggle if they were to open first, but the events on the English side here I think will barely notice an influx of numbers and there are enough of them that any mass influx will be spread around the area a good bit. Obviously will be different in other areas along the border, but along the E/W border I'm at the highest density population part of it.

    My main problem is we'd been trying to figure out which event might work best for us with a non buggy riding 5 year old now and which course would work best for one of us to run whilst the other picked up stones with the kid, and that I'd then have the best chance of catching the tail marshal before the line. Was thinking a couple of the Welsh ones would work best for us, now need to rethink that idea.

    Lol new parkrun challenges ahead for you by the sounds of it!

    I was thinking the ~1k people who do a parkrun around Edinburgh all heading down to a border area one. There's only a couple that are really close to the border on the English side. The pastures on the east coast has 66 finishers on average the Carlisle one would probably be the one Glasgow folk go to that averages nearly 200 so could probably handle it easier.


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    #9795
    chinguetti
    Registered Users Posts: 2,546 ✭✭✭chinguetti


    Strange that they have gone ahead and announced a date for this with cases rising in the UK over the last few days and the R numbers believed to be on the rise too. Also announcing it to the media and not via parkrun email to core teams first seems odd and not normally the way parkrun does things.

    Also read a thread on Twitter about a doctor questioning why they are going to restart and pointing out the issues of running in groups and the risk of transmission. From reading it, alot of people seem to believe that the world can return to the way it was before and for now, that can't happen.

    I'd like parkrun to be back up and running again btw but there seems to be undue haste to get going from what I've read.


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    #9796
    py
    Registered Users Posts: 1,535 ✭✭✭py


    chinguetti wrote: »
    Strange that they have gone ahead and announced a date for this with cases rising in the UK over the last few days and the R numbers believed to be on the rise too. Also announcing it to the media and not via parkrun email to core teams first seems odd and not normally the way parkrun does things.

    Also read a thread on Twitter about a doctor questioning why they are going to restart and pointing out the issues of running in groups and the risk of transmission. From reading it, alot of people seem to believe that the world can return to the way it was before and for now, that can't happen.

    I'd like parkrun to be back up and running again btw but there seems to be undue haste to get going from what I've read.

    They seem to be putting a lot of weight in the study they just had completed, details of which were discussed on the Free Weekly Timed podcast recently.


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    #9797
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    It was announced to certain people beforehand, possibly ambassador levels, but was embargoed until 6:50pm. They then released the FWT podcast and the various twitter and Facebook posts at the same time at 7pm.

    Just had a quick check on the parkrun events map and I'm right in the middle of the main area which might have border crossing parkrunners, but as said I don't think it will be a problem this way round with the relative event sizes. There are a few parkruns around North Wales border, but less people live there and its unlikely to be a major issue with parkrunners heading across to Chester. As for the Scottish border there are minimal parkruns close to it and minimal major population centres. There will be a few people driving the 2hrs 40mins from Edinburgh to Newcastle, but not enough to make a difference... And they would have to leave even earlier as well due to the different start times.

    Likewise, there will be some people drive from Cardiff to Bristol, but there is loads of events that numbers won't be noticed or overwhelm any event (well there is one which could do without any increase in numbers, but that has been cancelled due to a soggy course for months before lockdown and with the first bit of rain is unlikely to return anyway).


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    #9798
    DeepBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭DeepBlue


    To my mind if they are opening pubs (indoors for an hour and 45 mins?) then really there can be no logical objection to reopening parkruns (up to max of 40 mins for most people).


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    #9799
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    DeepBlue wrote: »
    To my mind if they are opening pubs (indoors for an hour and 45 mins?) then really there can be no logical objection to reopening parkruns (up to max of 40 mins for most people).

    But all outdoor sports currently have a good contact tracing system where u sign up in advance. Parkrun will need to do this in order to start here


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    #9800
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    average_runner wrote: »
    But all outdoor sports currently have a good contact tracing system where u sign up in advance. Parkrun will need to do this in order to start here

    They already do have a system in place that is far more reliable than anything any pub or restaurant is doing, and certainly more than any list that any dog walker is keeping of who they might encounter on their stroll around the park with their pooch.


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    #9801
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    robinph wrote: »
    They already do have a system in place that is far more reliable than anything any pub or restaurant is doing, and certainly more than any list that any dog walker is keeping of who they might encounter on their stroll around the park with their pooch.




    Again I said sport and that's the standard they have to get to.
    All online


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    #9802
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    average_runner wrote: »
    Again I said sport and that's the standard they have to get to.
    All online

    What is lacking from the parkrun system as far as tracing is concerned do you think?

    They have names, they have ages, they have email addresses, they have phone numbers, in some cases they have some medical details, they have home postcode in some instances, they can tell approximately who you are likely to have been running next to, they could probably even tell which scanning volunteer you stood in front of for 2 seconds if they really wanted, they can tell to some extent if you are a local or not from your event history, they can tell what running club you belong to.


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    #9803
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    robinph wrote: »
    What is lacking from the parkrun system as far as tracing is concerned do you think?

    They have names, they have ages, they have email addresses, they have phone numbers, in some cases they have some medical details, they have home postcode in some instances, they can tell approximately who you are likely to have been running next to, they could probably even tell which scanning volunteer you stood in front of for 2 seconds if they really wanted, they can tell to some extent if you are a local or not from your event history, they can tell what running club you belong to.




    The part that lacks, is they cannot for sure say they have all contacts of the runners. Some won't have tokens and then there is no record of them.


    I have done parkruns in the past without a token or pull out at half way. They will have to track these people to enable it to start up.


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    #9804
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    average_runner wrote: »
    They will have to track these people to enable it to start up.

    Why do they need 100% traceability?

    If an event is that big of a super spreader event then it will make local/ national/ international news and your not going to be worried about 1 person out of 400 who you couldn't track down as you are dealing with the other 399 people you are already treating and their further contacts.

    But I don't see a situation where parkrun or the contact tracing people need to send out anything to an entire event to trace their contacts. What could someone have possibly been doing at a parkrun that they potentially infect the entire field? If the RD went and licked every token before sorting them and each runner then went and licked them themselves then maybe, but other than that how do you infect the whole field?

    Maybe Bob gives Mary a hug at the finish because one of them got a longed for PB and Bob then tests positive, but that is then something between Bob and Mary as far as contact tracing goes. There isn't really any reason to contact the rest of the field or parkrun about that, and if Mary tests negative the chain stops there and no reason to follow further. You then want to know where else Bob has been, not the details of the runners who finished either 20 minutes before or after him at a parkrun on a rainy Saturday morning.


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    #9805
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    robinph wrote: »
    Why do they need 100% traceability?

    If an event is that big of a super spreader event then it will make local/ national/ international news and your not going to be worried about 1 person out of 400 who you couldn't track down as you are dealing with the other 399 people you are already treating and their further contacts.

    But I don't see a situation where parkrun or the contact tracing people need to send out anything to an entire event to trace their contacts. What could someone have possibly been doing at a parkrun that they potentially infect the entire field? If the RD went and licked every token before sorting them and each runner then went and licked them themselves then maybe, but other than that how do you infect the whole field?

    Maybe Bob gives Mary a hug at the finish because one of them got a longed for PB and Bob then tests positive, but that is then something between Bob and Mary as far as contact tracing goes. There isn't really any reason to contact the rest of the field or parkrun about that, and if Mary tests negative the chain stops there and no reason to follow further. You then want to know where else Bob has been, not the details of the runners who finished either 20 minutes before or after him at a parkrun on a rainy Saturday morning.





    All athletic clubs have to have contact tracing for all their sessions, chances of picking it up in a session is low, but parkrun is not an exception. It's what the HSE
    has as the guideline to follow, clubs aren't doing it for fun


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    #9806
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    average_runner wrote: »
    All athletic clubs have to have contact tracing for all their sessions, chances of picking it up in a session is low, but parkrun is not an exception. It's what the HSE
    has as the guideline to follow, clubs aren't doing it for fun

    But parkrun is also not an athletics club session with just a handful of people turning up.

    When events such as races resume do you expect the organisers to have to collect 100% contact tracing details of everyone on the course, all the spectators, all the people who happen to join in for a bit part way round? When outdoor gigs resume do you expect the details of every person with a ticket to be 100% reliable? Do you expect the contact details of every person through every pub door of an evening to be 100% reliable?

    There is no suggestion of parkrun restarting under the current requirements in Ireland. Once the regulations for Ireland change though to something that fits with the parkrun model, or with a couple of very minor tweaks, then it will return. But the 90%+ contact tracing of parkrun participants is going to be way above what any other similar sized event can achieve for all their participants and spectators.


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    #9807
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    robinph wrote: »
    But parkrun is also not an athletics club session with just a handful of people turning up.

    When events such as races resume do you expect the organisers to have to collect 100% contact tracing details of everyone on the course, all the spectators, all the people who happen to join in for a bit part way round? When outdoor gigs resume do you expect the details of every person with a ticket to be 100% reliable? Do you expect the contact details of every person through every pub door of an evening to be 100% reliable?

    There is no suggestion of parkrun restarting under the current requirements in Ireland. Once the regulations for Ireland change though to something that fits with the parkrun model, or with a couple of very minor tweaks, then it will return. But the 90%+ contact tracing of parkrun participants is going to be way above what any other similar sized event can achieve for all their participants and spectators.






    As you said, you can't stop people from joining in on a race, but a race can ensure that all who starts are contactable by ensuring the number is valid. Produce ID when signing in.


    If they find someone else used that number, just ban the athlete that owned it for a year or so, has happened in the past here.


    Parkrun in the current format, cannot ensure that everyone who starts, is in their system and if one drops out they have no idea


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    #9808
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,308 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    average_runner wrote: »
    The part that lacks, is they cannot for sure say they have all contacts of the runners. Some won't have tokens and then there is no record of them.


    I have done parkruns in the past without a token or pull out at half way. They will have to track these people to enable it to start up.

    I wonder would it be an idea to temporarily do away with the "no barcode, no time" rule? From my experience of parkrun, many of those without a barcode at an event were regulars who just happened to forget their barcode or people joining parkrun for the first time and not had a chance to print their barcode. I know manually putting in barcode numbers can take a bit of time. But can you do this with the phone system - I've only ever used scanners and processed results on the laptop.


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    #9809
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,846 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    I wonder would it be an idea to temporarily do away with the "no barcode, no time" rule? From my experience of parkrun, many of those without a barcode at an event were regulars who just happened to forget their barcode or people joining parkrun for the first time and not had a chance to print their barcode. I know manually putting in barcode numbers can take a bit of time. But can you do this with the phone system - I've only ever used scanners and processed results on the laptop.




    That is happening now at our local park. Large group doing their parkrun every sat


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    #9810
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,308 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    OOnegative wrote: »
    https://blog.parkrun.com/uk/2020/09/07/return-of-parkrun-announcement/

    A little surprised that they are restarting in England only and not the whole of the UK. I'm not up to speed with what covid numbers are like in different regions of the UK. But I would have thought Scotland would have been a better place to restart given the more remote locations of some of their parkruns. (Forgive me if I'm mistaken in that assumption!)

    I'm not going to lie - the announcement last night made me feel anxious about parkrun restarting in Ireland. Firstly I do miss parkrun, the routine of it and the people I would meet at it. But I'm also a run director and I would be a bit nervous with covid guideline adherence. I'm starting back kids coaching next week and am very nervous about that.


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    #9811
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    average_runner wrote: »
    Parkrun in the current format, cannot ensure that everyone who starts, is in their system and if one drops out they have no idea

    That won't change though and parkrun HQ would consider that one of the things which would break parkrun if governments made 100% traceability before an event a requirement.

    Part of what makes parkrun work is the simplicity of just turn up and run. They would like you to have a barcode, but have never required it and will never require it. Unless governments mandate everyones movements to be 100% traceable 100% of the time, and that would be down to the government to enforce and carry out, then that kind of system isn't going to exist at parkrun.

    Whilst parkrun can't currently happen in Ireland, it is the government position that will need to shift towards what parkrun considers acceptable for it to restart their events. If Ireland say that events up to 500 can happen in parks but they still want 100% traceability then maybe parkrun would change their system, but I seriously doubt the government will require that when they allow those numbers to gather, and I seriously doubt that parkrun will take on the responsibility for confirming who else is wandering around the park at the time.


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