Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Pete_Cavan · 03-09-2020 03:00PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

They have identified nothing and no thought or purpose has gone into identifying reasons to have a greenway go through the towns and villages that the actual railway passes through. They have clearly not identified any reason other than there is a disused railway there, that in itself is not a reason to build a greenway.

If the report confirms that rail services north of Athenry are not viable, then there being a disused railway becomes a good reason to build a greenway as there is really no other viable use.

ShaneC1600 · 03-09-2020 03:33PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the report confirms that rail services north of Athenry are not viable, then there being a disused railway becomes a good reason to build a greenway as there is really no other viable use.

Not necessarily, if the report proposes that rail is not viable for whatever reason only then is it a good reason to carry out a feasibility study into a greenway. I still think the towns along the route need to up their offering for tourists. Tuam for instance is a sin At the minute and the sooner the council advance with the rehabilitation of the town the better because at the minute there is nothing to attract someone passing on a bike to stop in or overnight.
There is nothing stopping the development of the town in creating an attractive stop over right now, this could only be a good thing for the future greenway and/or/without a railway.

westtip · 03-09-2020 03:38PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

They have identified nothing and no thought or purpose has gone into identifying reasons to have a greenway go through the towns and villages that the actual railway passes through. They have clearly not identified any reason other than there is a disused railway there, that in itself is not a reason to build a greenway.

After 40 years of line closure is that not a reason to build a greenway? It clearly is not going to be re-opened as a railway. That is the conclusion they came to in Waterford. If you want reasons suggest you study the economic argument for greenways there are numerous case studies, but hey we know all this don't we. It's all getting a bit he said she said he said she said.......Please spell out the economic argument for the railway and please spare us the phrase balanced regional development.

Pete_Cavan · 03-09-2020 03:54PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Not necessarily, if the report proposes that rail is not viable for whatever reason only then is it a good reason to carry out a feasibility study into a greenway.

Thats probably how it has happened. Seeing as the Department has the report on the WRC, and they have recently given money for a feasibility study into a greenway, its not hard to fill in the blank that is the conclusions of the WRC report.

ShaneC1600 · 03-09-2020 04:05PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Thats probably how it has happened. Seeing as the Department has the report on the WRC, and they have recently given money for a feasibility study into a greenway, its not hard to fill in the blank that is the conclusions of the WRC report.

Quite possible to be fair but until the report is released we don't know whats what. For all we know the report may not have fulfilled the brief and its back to square 1!

TCDStudent1 · 03-09-2020 04:12PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Not necessarily, if the report proposes that rail is not viable for whatever reason only then is it a good reason to carry out a feasibility study into a greenway. I still think the towns along the route need to up their offering for tourists. Tuam for instance is a sin At the minute and the sooner the council advance with the rehabilitation of the town the better because at the minute there is nothing to attract someone passing on a bike to stop in or overnight.
There is nothing stopping the development of the town in creating an attractive stop over right now, this could only be a good thing for the future greenway and/or/without a railway.

What do you think Tuam is lacking at the moment?

Muckyboots · 03-09-2020 04:29PM

River Suir wrote: »

...if there isn't already an active campaign to have it reinstated as a railway....

Ah.... the "I was here first" principle. I'd give more credence to the lads currently grazing horses than I would to that.

end of the road · 03-09-2020 04:31PM

westtip wrote: »

After 40 years of line closure is that not a reason to build a greenway? It clearly is not going to be re-opened as a railway. That is the conclusion they came to in Waterford. If you want reasons suggest you study the economic argument for greenways there are numerous case studies, but hey we know all this don't we. It's all getting a bit he said she said he said she said.......Please spell out the economic argument for the railway and please spare us the phrase balanced regional development.

the line has not been closed for 40 years, only the bit to sligo has, the rest had heavy freight trains up until the late 90s early 2000s.

03-09-2020 04:34PM

end of the road wrote: »

the line has not been closed for 40 years, only the bit to sligo has, the rest had heavy freight trains up until the late 90s early 2000s.

Last normal passenger services ran 1976

TCDStudent1 · 03-09-2020 04:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Last normal passenger services ran 1976

Any reason for stating 'normal' here? Did 'abnormal' passenger services run later than this?

eastwest · 03-09-2020 04:50PM

River Suir wrote: »

...if there isn't already an active campaign to have it reinstated as a railway....

An active campaign that has been debunked by every study so far.

end of the road · 03-09-2020 05:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Last normal passenger services ran 1976

still had heavy freight trains and specials up until the late 90s very early 2000s, apart from i believe a short period in the early 90s.

eastwest · 03-09-2020 05:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

the line has not been closed for 40 years, only the bit to sligo has, the rest had heavy freight trains up until the late 90s early 2000s.

Once the sugar factory finally closed in 1987, that was the end of the railway.
Understandably enough, many people still hanker after a time when a heavily subsidised rail service rattled through Tuam, but you can't build government policy on nostalgia.
As we will soon find out. They can't keep the latest report locked in a filing cabinet for ever.

ShaneC1600 · 03-09-2020 05:47PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

What do you think Tuam is lacking at the moment?

An open train station ðŸ˜‚

westtip · 03-09-2020 07:31PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Quite possible to be fair but until the report is released we don't know whats what. For all we know the report may not have fulfilled the brief and its back to square 1!

I have absolutely no doubt you are right there will be waffle in it that keeps your dream of a railway re-opening there will no doubt be references to the mythical Atlantic economic corridor and BRD - aks balanced regional development and nothing a big nothing will happen - the greenway will be stopped at all costs on the basis of waffle offering nothing. Indeed Square one I can guarentee it.

westtip · 03-09-2020 07:57PM

end of the road wrote: »

the line has not been closed for 40 years, only the bit to sligo has, the rest had heavy freight trains up until the late 90s early 2000s.

So the line was open in the boom years and there was no market then for passenger services?

end of the road · 03-09-2020 09:27PM

eastwest wrote: »

Once the sugar factory finally closed in 1987, that was the end of the railway.
Understandably enough, many people still hanker after a time when a heavily subsidised rail service rattled through Tuam, but you can't build government policy on nostalgia.
As we will soon find out. They can't keep the latest report locked in a filing cabinet for ever.

not sure what any of that has got to do with what i said?

westtip wrote: »

So the line was open in the boom years and there was no market then for passenger services?

there may have been a market but irish rail didn't introduce services, and the line was only suitable at that stage for slow freight trains and specials which could afford to take their time.
it would have needed a rebuild for faster passenger trains, something it will need anyway when reopened, and something ennis athenry needed when it was being reopened.

TCDStudent1 · 03-09-2020 09:48PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

An open train station &#55357;&#56834;

Fair enough. However, I am genuinely curious about what you think Tuam can do to improve itself as a town (based on your earlier post).

ezstreet5 · 03-09-2020 10:36PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Fair enough. However, I am genuinely curious about what you think Tuam can do to improve itself as a town (based on your earlier post).

Tuam needs what all other East Galway (and dare I say all rural) towns need? For the town centre: Owner occupiers with a bit of creativity. And if you want to let out your town-centre property, a bit of egalitarianism to demand nothing beyond a fair rent. Frequently, these crusty towns have a famine-era mindset that, "I own a building, I'm entitled to a living rent paid by the work of others." Those days are long gone, and sadly a bit of attrition is needed. Most of these folk are clutching at the staws of a greenway that may change their fortunes. It will not.

What will change these communities is natural growth, and young families with workers that need to commute to jobs that can support a household. And dare I say that commuter rail service supports this more than an after-hours bicycle trail?

Pete_Cavan · 04-09-2020 07:48AM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Tuam needs what all other East Galway (and dare I say all rural) towns need? For the town centre: Owner occupiers with a bit of creativity. And if you want to let out your town-centre property, a bit of egalitarianism to demand nothing beyond a fair rent. Frequently, these crusty towns have a famine-era mindset that, "I own a building, I'm entitled to a living rent paid by the work of others." Those days are long gone, and sadly a bit of attrition is needed. Most of these folk are clutching at the staws of a greenway that may change their fortunes. It will not.

What will change these communities is natural growth, and young families with workers that need to commute to jobs that can support a household. And dare I say that commuter rail service supports this more than an after-hours bicycle trail?

I fully agree with the first part of your post but then it descends into the standard rhetoric we see in this thread. It presents a wonderful scenario but only a train service can provide that. In reality, rail services to Tuam will not run this decade, it is not factored into public spending plans and even if it did somehow jump hundreds of place up the priority list, it would take the rest of the decade in design, planning and construction before a train would run - best case scenario.

If the goal is to provide sustainable commutes to jobs that can support a household, buses are the only answer and could be in place in months. A frequent bus service could be provided tomorrow connecting passengers to trains at Athenry, giving people their desired train link into Galway. Buses could be far more frequent than trains on the single track line to/from Tuam giving a better service.

Ironically, the mindset here is not that different to the famine-era mindset described in the post above; "I'm entitled to a train service paid by the work of others." It has nothing to do with sustainability or community building or anything like that. If sustainability, community improvement, etc. were the goal, bus services would be implemented immediately, even as an interim measure. The railway crew here have no interest in buses though and actively oppose it because the success of such services at little cost would damage the case for spending €70m on rail and then subsidising it every year. We want sustainability but we will wait 10 or 20 years or more to get it.

Nobody is claiming that the greenway will be an economic miracle for Tuam. It can however be delivered relatively quickly for little cost, can improve quality of life for people in the area and yes they do attract people from further afield which benefits the local economy. It would do far more good than waiting for a train that never arrives. Hopefully the report gets published soon so we can see the real cost and impact of a train service, followed quickly by the greenway feasibility so everyone can stop clutching at the straws.

ezstreet5 · 04-09-2020 10:34AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I fully agree with the first part of your post but then it descends into the standard rhetoric we see in this thread. It presents a wonderful scenario but only a train service can provide that. In reality, rail services to Tuam will not run this decade, it is not factored into public spending plans and even if it did somehow jump hundreds of place up the priority list, it would take the rest of the decade in design, planning and construction before a train would run - best case scenario.

Agree that I added some "rhetoric" there, probably in response to prior "rhetoric." But I equally reject blanket statements such as "We all know..." and "...not this decade.". Other than a few rail projects listed in the PFG, I also doubt whether there is a "priority list" of hundreds of projects that are sequentially advanced. I also don't believe that a fresh Railway Order is needed for reactivation. There may be a few local authority planning applications for agricultural overpasses, but CIE could rebuild the trackbed today if they wanted to as exempted development. I think that's the path that was taken for Phase 1.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the goal is to provide sustainable commutes to jobs that can support a household, buses are the only answer and could be in place in months. A frequent bus service could be provided tomorrow connecting passengers to trains at Athenry, giving people their desired train link into Galway. Buses could be far more frequent than trains on the single track line to/from Tuam giving a better service.

Maybe conceptually, but in reality that would be a terrible service. The shuttle busses would either need to use the M17 and then backtrack 6 km to Athenry train station, or otherwise take R347, which is substandard. It would be slow, and cumbersome at both ends, and rail connections could not be guaranteed.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Ironically, the mindset here is not that different to the famine-era mindset described in the post above; "I'm entitled to a train service paid by the work of others." It has nothing to do with sustainability or community building or anything like that. If sustainability, community improvement, etc. were the goal, bus services would be implemented immediately, even as an interim measure.

I don't see how demanding rail service is relatable to the famine. I was referring to a landlord class believing they are entitled to rent. But again, there is a reason why nobody is seriously proposing a shuttle bus between Tuam and Athenry.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The railway crew here have no interest in buses though and actively oppose it because the success of such services at little cost would damage the case for spending €70m on rail and then subsidising it every year. We want sustainability but we will wait 10 or 20 years or more to get it.

No interest at all. The existing Burke's Bus service takes over an hour to make the journey during peak times and adds to Galway's traffic. Yet, 2,000 people use it every day, in addition to the single occupancy vehicles. So the travel demand is there. But busses are just not the answer, or at least not the sole answer.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Nobody is claiming that the greenway will be an economic miracle for Tuam. It can however be delivered relatively quickly for little cost, can improve quality of life for people in the area and yes they do attract people from further afield which benefits the local economy. It would do far more good than waiting for a train that never arrives. Hopefully the report gets published soon so we can see the real cost and impact of a train service, followed quickly by the greenway feasibility so everyone can stop clutching at the straws.

Yes, people are claiming that a "Quiet Man Greenway" will be an economic miracle. They really believe that! I tend to be in the camp that benefits would modest or minimal, and are outweighed by the benefits of rail service. That's just my honest opinion.

Muckyboots · 04-09-2020 11:47AM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Maybe conceptually, but in reality that would be a terrible service. The shuttle busses would either need to use the M17 and then backtrack 6 km to Athenry train station, or otherwise take R347, which is substandard. It would be slow, and cumbersome at both ends, and rail connections could not be guaranteed.

I don't see how demanding rail service is relatable to the famine. I was referring to a landlord class believing they are entitled to rent. But again, there is a reason why nobody is seriously proposing a shuttle bus between Tuam and Athenry.
.

There are few ( other than a few diehard rail fanatics) seriously proposing a rail shuttle service from Tuam to Athenry for the connection issues you've correctly highlighted. Landlord classes should be charged full local authority rates on vacant premises- but that's a completely different issue.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

There may be a few local authority planning applications for agricultural overpasses, but CIE could rebuild the trackbed today if they wanted to as exempted development. I think that's the path that was taken for Phase 1.

Frequently closed due to flooding.

end of the road · 04-09-2020 12:32PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I fully agree with the first part of your post but then it descends into the standard rhetoric we see in this thread. It presents a wonderful scenario but only a train service can provide that. In reality, rail services to Tuam will not run this decade, it is not factored into public spending plans and even if it did somehow jump hundreds of place up the priority list, it would take the rest of the decade in design, planning and construction before a train would run - best case scenario.

If the goal is to provide sustainable commutes to jobs that can support a household, buses are the only answer and could be in place in months. A frequent bus service could be provided tomorrow connecting passengers to trains at Athenry, giving people their desired train link into Galway. Buses could be far more frequent than trains on the single track line to/from Tuam giving a better service.

Ironically, the mindset here is not that different to the famine-era mindset described in the post above; "I'm entitled to a train service paid by the work of others." It has nothing to do with sustainability or community building or anything like that. If sustainability, community improvement, etc. were the goal, bus services would be implemented immediately, even as an interim measure. The railway crew here have no interest in buses though and actively oppose it because the success of such services at little cost would damage the case for spending €70m on rail and then subsidising it every year. We want sustainability but we will wait 10 or 20 years or more to get it.

Nobody is claiming that the greenway will be an economic miracle for Tuam. It can however be delivered relatively quickly for little cost, can improve quality of life for people in the area and yes they do attract people from further afield which benefits the local economy. It would do far more good than waiting for a train that never arrives. Hopefully the report gets published soon so we can see the real cost and impact of a train service, followed quickly by the greenway feasibility so everyone can stop clutching at the straws.

we have no interest in buses because we know they are only being used to try and get out of building rail, and as well as that they are likely only going to add to the traffic issues in galway rather then take away from them.
not to mention that hardly anyone is going to use a bus to connect to a train at athenry, where as they are likely to use a train from tuam which would go directly to galway.
essentially we know what the actual game is here and we aren't falling for it, even if your bus proposal was successful it does not negate rail.

Muckyboots wrote: »

There are few ( other than a few diehard rail fanatics) seriously proposing a rail shuttle service from Tuam to Athenry for the connection issues you've correctly highlighted. Landlord classes should be charged full local authority rates on vacant premises- but that's a completely different issue.

Frequently closed due to flooding.

flooding i believe has always been an issue, it's nothing to do with the process of how CIE rebuilt the line.
they have even raised it in the aim of trying to negate the flooding issues.
nobody to my knowledge in favour of reopening the line to tuam is suggesting an athenry tuam shuttle, quite the opposite, because we know it wouldn't be workable.
it's others claiming for a fact that this is what will be introduced if the line was to be reopened when they have nothing to go on because no service pattern has been released and we don't know if athenry galway redoubling would actually be done perhapse already, by the time the line would reopen.

donvito99 · 04-09-2020 12:38PM

end of the road wrote: »

we have no interest in buses because we know they are only being used to try and get out of building rail, and as well as that they are likely only going to add to the traffic issues in galway rather then take away from them. not to mention that hardly anyone is going to use a bus to connect to a train at athenry, where as they are likely to use a train from tuam which would go directly to galway.

But wait, isn't your case that there is significant demand from Tuam to Athenry? I believe Greaney was always pointing to the school traffic between the two towns. So why wouldn't people avail of a bus?

There's a lot of conclusions being made here on the basis of we know and hardly anyone uses with little actual evidence.

essentially we know what the actual game is here and we aren't falling for it, even if your bus proposal was successful it does not negate rail.

His 'game' seems to be to actually deliver a decent public transport service instead of just talking about a hugely expensive investment which has taken decades to not happen but one which you like to talk about.

Actions speak louder than imaginary railways.

ShaneC1600 · 04-09-2020 12:39PM

Muckyboots wrote: »

Frequently closed due to flooding.

Maybe I'm wrong but the Phase 1 section of the WRC does not flood frequently, twice in 10 years at kiltartan directly related to blocked 3rd party drains is hardly frequent. Ballycar is another issue entirely and that is currently at design stage between multiple agencies to rectify.

ShaneC1600 · 04-09-2020 01:00PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Fair enough. However, I am genuinely curious about what you think Tuam can do to improve itself as a town (based on your earlier post).

Tuam has exceptionally high unoccupied commercial premises in the town, as a start that could be addressed. The town itself is horrendous and looks terrible. Antisocial behaviour is rife, drugs are a problem and underage drinking is very visible. These issues are probably similar to other towns of similar size but this does not take from the fact that Tuam needs to be cleaned up drastically.
Tuam needs a unique selling point, the greenway will not address this, forget about everything else, if the disused railway was not passing through Tuam nobody would want the greenway to go through it, that needs to change. Other places are known for being full of activity or adventure sports, other towns are known for nice quite walks with cafes and super restaurants, others are heritage towns, others are known for street music, others for beautiful walks through the town, others simply for their scenery.
Tuam needs to address this and find its own purpose and not rely on the potential of a greenway because there could be many people disappointed with the result.
Tuam has massive potential no doubt but we need the council rehabilitation plan to be completed and get the people of Tuam to love the town again before we expect people to actually want to come in from any future greenway.

Pete_Cavan · 04-09-2020 01:44PM

end of the road wrote: »

we have no interest in buses because we know they are only being used to try and get out of building rail, and as well as that they are likely only going to add to the traffic issues in galway rather then take away from them.
not to mention that hardly anyone is going to use a bus to connect to a train at athenry, where as they are likely to use a train from tuam which would go directly to galway.
essentially we know what the actual game is here and we aren't falling for it, even if your bus proposal was successful it does not negate rail.

If the Tuam line opened in the morning, trains from Tuam which would not go directly to Galway. There isn't the capacity on the single track, unless you think trains from Tuam should take priority over Dublin - Galway or Galway - Limerick trains. Direct trains from Tuam wont happen until the mainline is double tracked, until then it is a shuttle.

A bus using M17 & M6 from Tuam to Athenry would be fast, some bus priority measures in Athenry town would really help though. It obviously wouldn't add to Galway traffic as it doesn't go near the city, the bus passengers still get into the city on a train.

The refusal to even consider a bus connection to Athenry really exposes the rail campaign, this has nothing to do with sustainable transport, allowing young families with workers commute to jobs that can support a household or any of that. If that were the case, you'd be calling for the fastest implementable service, particularly as bus does not negate rail, as you said yourself. A bus service has nothing to do with getting out of building rail, no building rail is happening with or without the bus service.

intellectual dosser · 04-09-2020 01:48PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the Tuam line opened in the morning, trains from Tuam which would not go directly to Galway. There isn't the capacity on the single track, unless you think trains from Tuam should take priority over Dublin - Galway or Galway - Limerick trains. Direct trains from Tuam wont happen until the mainline is double tracked, until then it is a shuttle.

A bus using M17 & M6 from Tuam to Athenry would be fast, some bus priority measures in Athenry town would really help though. It obviously wouldn't add to Galway traffic as it doesn't go near the city, the bus passengers still get into the city on a train.

The refusal to even consider a bus connection to Athenry really exposes the rail campaign, this has nothing to do with sustainable transport, allowing young families with workers commute to jobs that can support a household or any of that. If that were the case, you'd be calling for the fastest implementable service, particularly as bus does not negate rail, as you said yourself. A bus service has nothing to do with getting out of building rail, no building rail is happening with or without the bus service.

It has been said many times that double tracking Galway to Athenry is necessary with or without WRC Phases 2+.

Like so many posters on this forum you take a railway from Athenry to Tuam/Claremorrie/Colooney in isolation, yet of course you've felt free to make changes in Athenry to accommodate your bus solution...the mind boggles.

Pete_Cavan · 04-09-2020 02:31PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

It has been said many times that double tracking Galway to Athenry is necessary with or without WRC Phases 2+.

Like so many posters on this forum you take a railway from Athenry to Tuam/Claremorrie/Colooney in isolation, yet of course you've felt free to make changes in Athenry to accommodate your bus solution...the mind boggles.

But the claim that people "are likely to use a train from Tuam which would go directly to Galway" is irrelevant until the double tracking is in place. Its putting the cart before the horse. Until then, wouldn't it be good to put in place an easily implementable, low cost service which could allow for more public transport commuting? Or does sustainability, reducing car commuting, etc. not matter at all and the argument here is actually "spend €100m building and subsidising a train service for us because we are worth it"?

Losty Dublin · 04-09-2020 02:35PM

westtip wrote: »

So the line was open in the boom years and there was no market then for passenger services?

It wasn't that long ago when the lines beyond Athlone to Galway and Westport/Ballina were perilously close to Abandonment. Today, all three lines are near capacity, with plans afoot to add freight and passenger capacity in the region. This growth in rail traffic to the region is both substantial and consistent has come in spite of considerable road investment and liberalisation in both road haulage and private bus routes.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Comments