Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123061182#Comment_123061182

He aint doing it for freight, hope he is wise to the Athenry to Galway City double tracking. They might name the train station in Tuam after him if he does.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123061395#Comment_123061395

It would be bonkers to spend 100m+ to re-open Athenry to Tuam to Claremorris for one freight train per day.

Flows of passengers are much more significant.

I'm sure there is plenty of latent demand from people/students/commuters in Athenry and Tuam.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123064625#Comment_123064625

Tell that to Arup and The Government because I'm only referring to what they have been saying for the last number of years.

I'd like nothing more than to see commuters taking some pressure off Galway's terrible congestion but they are saying it will be freight first.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123064777#Comment_123064777

I think the ultimate aim here is passenger services. The 'freight first' angle was a very clever argument put forward by the Greens that:

• allowed the government apply for Tens-T EU funding

• avoids any political discourse, given a certain report suggesting the passenger services would cost 500m and have a CBA of 0.2 (complete nonsense report)

• keeps the project from getting caught up in the planning system for years, by doing it in stages. Foynes works for the freight line were substantially exempt from any planning approvals

The Foynes project is clear proof that these lines can be reinstated at a very reasonable cost. And given the scope of works included in Foynes, there'll be very little left to do to add passenger services. The same will likely apply to Athenry-Claremorris.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123065271#Comment_123065271

That's interesting. If those tactics from the Greens leads to EU funding and avoiding planning hold ups then fair play they deserve credit for that.

Aside from funding the freight aspect may be easier to get going first anyway as I presume it would not need the old stations resurrected. Once the line is open work can continue on the buildings and passenger facilities. Having said that it may be more cost effective to do the whole lot together.

The speed of the Foynes work has been very impressive surely. It shows what can be done.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123065271#Comment_123065271

The works are being paid for by the Irish taxpayer, a small amount may have been received years ago for studies.

It is questionable whether it is being reinstating at "a very reasonable cost" given it will cost over €100m and that is without any loading/unloading facilities.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123067558#Comment_123067558

If you consider a cost per km of €2.5m for Foynes, it's absolutely reasonable by any metric. Yes, there will be additional costs to bring the Foynes line up to full spec for freight (loading/unloading) and passenger (stations etc), but to get the main infrastructure completed for that cost is very encouraging.

By comparison, Metrolink is closer to €500m per km, Navan line estimated at €60m per km, N5 Scramoge Rd at €13m per km, and the M20 estimated at €25m per km.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123069414#Comment_123069414

I wouldn't consider completing a project at a cost of over €100m and being left with something which is not usable for the purpose intended to be reasonable.

Cost per km is a completely irrelevant point of comparison here and gives no indication of value for money. Metrolink obviously has a far higher cost per km but cost is only one side of the equation. If the metric were to compare on the basis of cost per train movement (from one end of the line to the other) per year, Foynes would be laughable v Metrolink, assuming some in service trains actually run on the Foynes line at all (it'll be a few more years anyway before they have freight handling facilities as that will require planning permission).

None of those projects you mentioned relevant here anyway. More relevant would be opportunity cost in terms of investment in the rail network. For example, double tracking between Portarlington and Athlone would likely be similar in terms of cost but have far more benefits in terms of carrying both passengers and freight.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123071083#Comment_123071083

I'll go back to my original point which was simply using Foynes cost/timeline as a proxy for what could be possible on the WRC. I'm not trying to debate the value for money (or not) specifically of Foynes.

Based on the Foynes works:

• I think it extremely unlikely Athenry to Claremorris is going to cost 500m, as has been assumed previously

• and works could be progressed remarkably quickly (by Irish standards)

Do you disagree?

DumbBrunette

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123071131#Comment_123071131

The problem with Athenry to Claremorris that can't be easily compared to the Foynes line, is that there are 4 at-grade crossings of the N17. These may have to be bridged, given the AADT on the N17 is around 10,000 between Tuam and Claremorris. This would massively increase the cost of reopening the line.

Westernview

€100m for a piece of regional rail infrastructure at today's prices is excellent value. It would already be in place were it not for the recession. An excellent opportunity to begin addressing the West and NWests appalling position at number 218 out of 234 in the index table of EU regions infrastructure.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123071131#Comment_123071131

As I have stated here before, I think the AISRR is a pile of crap so I don't put any stock in the cost estimates (or anything) in it. Foynes will cost at least €152m, reopening Athenry - Claremorris would cost more due to the need for a bridge over the N63 and major LCs (if not bridges) on the N17. To allow for passenger services, costs are likely to be over €200m. That's a lot of money no matter what people here say.

Further WRC reopening will certainly require planning permission so won't progress as quickly as the Foynes line. Foynes hasn't been all that impressive in terms of timeline, they cut every corner from skipping the necessary approval gates to avoiding planning permission and it'll still have take 5+ years to end up with a rail line which can't handle passengers or load/unload freight.

Foynes is an example of how not to handle a project and if anything, will ensure further scrutiny of any proposal for WRC (as will WRC Phase 1 where passenger numbers were well below forecast and they resorted to counting passengers between Galway and Athenry and Ennis and Limerick to make it look better). For the same money as reopening Athenry - Claremorris, much greater benefits can be had by investing in other parts of the network.

Westernview

Someone tell the government we need to cancel infrastructure projects as they cost money. It's just unacceptable.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123074453#Comment_123074453

Childish.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123074382#Comment_123074382

If anything, Foynes is a fantastic example of how to handle a rail project in Ireland.

It's not accurate to say they avoided planning permission, since the vast majority of Foynes works were exempt from planning as Irish Rail are effectively just renovating an existing line. There was some planning nonsense about raising a bridge a few feet, but thankfully that was dealt with swiftly and didn't delay the project. A fantastic example of what can be achieved when the will is there.

And as a direct result of CAC examining the Foynes project, the hurdle for a project to be considered a "major" project was increased from €100m to €200m. Only at the major level do you need to get the higher level of government approvals and extension reports/business cases supporting the project.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123075175#Comment_123075175

The Foynes project may be good from a cost point of view, i.e. relatively quick build and no big cost over-run. But from a benefit proint of view? Having spent tens of millions, where is the freight traffic waiting to use the new line?

We do Cost-Benefit analysis of projects for a reason.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123075175#Comment_123075175

The PSC applies to all projects, not just those over €100m. This is from Public Spending Code A Guide to Evaluating, Planning and Managing Current Expenditure which was issued in 2012;

Cost/Benefit Analysis was required for the Foynes line and should have been sent to DPER for review. The full project was going to exceed €100m so it should have gone for government approval but they avoided this by phasing it which the C&AG did not agree with. When they finally got round to producing a Business Case in Nov 2023 (almost a year after award of the construction contract), total projected capital cost were given around €152m.

Changes to the PSC were effective from March 2023 and we're obviously drafted, reviewed and approved before then. The contract for the Foynes line was awarded in Dec 2022 so it had absolutely no impact on any changes to the PSC. At the time of award, the Foynes line project had been progressing since 2014 (PSC was introduced in 2013 so no ambiguity as to whether it was applicable) in serious non-compliance and the promoters were thinking everything is grand, there is no way it influenced changes to the PSC.

The Foynes line is a seriously non-compliant with requirements for such projects and a negligent dereliction of duty by all involved, it's a complete and utter shìtshow. To say "is a fantastic example of how to handle a rail project" is delusional, the whole thing is borderline criminal. Hopefully the C&AG investigate further when it is finally complete to review the actual final costs, if the asset is actually usable for the purpose intended at that point and what are the prospects for some/any return from the investment made.

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123075913#Comment_123075913

cost benefit analysis wasn't undertaken on the Foynes Line reopening, cost effectiveness analysis was used. This is because the reopening was in response to the EU drive to have Tier 1 ports be connected by rail link.

We possibly could have sought a derogation for not providing the link, but with a Green Minister and the port asking for the link, its not suprising the work went ahead.

The C&AG would need to get into the weeds about spending money to meet EU requirements even when there may not be a positive CBA; that's an uncomfortable space. Plenty of rail schemes like train protection wouldn't have a positive CBA but can be considered a necessity to meet EU requirements. This logic would also apply to climate mitigation/adaption projects which may not have a positive CBA but could be considered necessary.

On WRC, there's a lot of structures to address, and meeting passenger needs in terms of a Service Level for journey times, makes the demands of the upgrade completely different.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123076628#Comment_123076628

Good that someone provided such a document because the C&AG's office didn't get it

There is no way we would be forced to spend €150+ for the sake of ticking a box.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123077748#Comment_123077748

That report is comparing a €10,000million project to a €150million project. All those red boxes are based on the assumption Foynes Rail Project was technically a "major" project over 100m and required the same level of oversight as Metrolink. A "major" project requires a much higher level of government approvals, which is entirely reasonable. That hurdle has now been increased to 200m.

When you consider the Foynes Masterplan and the enormous potential to transform the Shannon Estuary and West Coast into the largest producer of green energy in Europe, are we seriously going to question €100-150m spend to reopen a 40km single alignment disused railway?

https://www.limerick.ie/business/news-events/news/shannon-foynes-ports-record-investment-key-step-transforming-estuary

Bsharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123077748#Comment_123077748

My guess is they did get it but said it was only partially in compliance with PAG.

The government weren't forced, they actively chose to spend the money on it. They had national strategic objectives as well as an EU regulation to pin it on. A green min

I'd have spent the money on other Rail investment given funding is tight and we still haven't got double tracking on critical sections of the network.

The project highlights what's coming our way in terms of rail funding and investment. None of the other line reinstatements, intercity electrification, regional line upgrade projects will justify their costs using CBA under the current project appraisal guidance.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123078380#Comment_123078380

The C&AG report is not a comparison between the projects, they simply assessed both projects within the same report. The comparative value or scale of the projects is irrelevant, both are assessed separately on their own merits. Whether Foynes was a "major" project or not is irrelevant, it was still required to follow the PSC, which it didn't.

It was a major project anyway and should have been treated as such. The C&AG report said "The Foynes project had an initial projected cost of €42m" and "in July 2022 proposed that financial support be
provided for the phase 1 works from the land transport expenditure programme
(Programme B) of Vote 31 Transport". Then "The Department’s observations were based on revised project costs submitted by
Iarnród Éireann in respect of phase 1, which had increased to €104 million following
receipt of tenders (i.e. around 2.5 times the previous estimate). The Department
pointed out that the project had not been subject to any detailed appraisal.". In Dec 2022, the Department had to provide an additional €64m to cover Phase 1, costs increased by a factor of 2.5 in six months before work actually started. Like I said, a shìtshow.

So the project had not been subject to any detailed appraisal which was required regardless of the value but despite their best efforts to keep the project from requiring DPER approval and government sign off by splitting it*, Phase 1 on its own exceeded the threshold for a major project.

* In a real sense, the project doesn't actually have phases. What they called Phase 1 and 2 are both required to achieve what was intended (i.e. an operational rail line) so are a single project and should have been planned and budgeted for as such. Should they find any customers, there will also have to be a Phase 3 to provide loading/unloading facilities at two locations, no doubt at taxpayers expense and expected to be paid just to make the previous €152m investment usable.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123078740#Comment_123078740

The C&AG report is very clear; "As the Department recognised, during the initial planning of the project in 2022, neither
a strategic assessment report nor a preliminary business case had been developed.
This is not compliant with the Public Spending Code requirements for such projects". There is no excusing this.

The requirements of the PSC aren't based exclusively on monetary cost v benefit so investments in the rail network can and will happen but it needs to be assessed (including in terms of environmental responsibilities and public policies) and options considered

The Preliminary Business Case includes the following elements:

 * Confirmation of the strategic relevance of the proposal and detailed specification of the

objective of the proposal

 * Description of the short-list of potential options to deliver objectives set out

 * Detailed demand analysis and description of underlying assumptions

 * Assessment of climate and environmental performance

 * Options appraisal, including:

 * Financial appraisal

 * Economic appraisal

 * Sensitivity analysis

 * Assessment of affordability within existing resources

 * Risk assessment, allowance for optimism bias and full risk management strategy

 * Proposed approach to procurement

 * Proposed approaches to implementation and operation

 * Assessment of delivery risk

 * Plan for monitoring and evaluation including key performance indicators

 * Recommendation for the Approving Authority

Westernview

The sooner the next phase of the WRC is opened the better. Tailbacks into Galway city are still atrocious in the new year and getting worse. The ring road if its ever built will be a failure without extra trains into the city and light rail within the city. So many benefits for the region and towns along the route. Time to implement a proper regional rail network to serve the growing population the next 100 years.

Westernview

A very encouraging piece on the WRC following a visit by a European delegation.

"Rail infrastructure is the backbone of regional development"

https://www.westernpeople.ie/news/european-support-for-western-rail-corridor_arid-49697.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawIu7khleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHbjgx1AivOtZr8KjsC4a_7OumaeDjhaUwd5mfh7MBE7EkBQ1638FJOf-kQ_aem_fV6Q4iTqg5GwdR2Q7ox6qg

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123220043#Comment_123220043

More encouraging news for the broader western corridor. Plans advancing for new stations in Limerick city as well as improvements between Limerick and Galway.

https://clareherald.com/news/transport/works-on-ennis-line-part-of-iarnrod-eireann-plans/

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123223758#Comment_123223758

So 2 new stations in Moyross and Ballysumon. Without a corssing loop at Sixmilebridge, these stations will only make the Limerick-Ennis section even more overcrowded. And adding more stops to Limerick-Galway services will make competition with road-based transport even more of a problem.

I would like to see more about the proposed expansion of freight. If properly thought out, this could be a huge and very welcome devopment.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123224052#Comment_123224052

I accept yout point, but isn't Ballysimon on the line to Dublin?

EVBusFan

A visual aid for the above disscussion from Section 11 - Rail of the LSMATS