MGTOW = “men going their own way”

Wibbs · 30-08-2020 12:43pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I have read online that dating apps are a farce anyway. Seemingly only 10% of males using them are being selected.

I am not sure if it was a real survey/experiment that was carried out, but I have read on several different forums about the marketing company that set up a fake " Chad " profile on a well known dating app. A picture of a model and the opening lines included having a criminal record and included disparaging sexist remarks etc. Seemingly the profile was inundated with pm's, phone numbers and requests for a hook up.

Oh sure and I'd not be surprised at all. I mean look at the various crims and murderers, even serial killers that get sack loads of letters from women. Back to the "I can tame him with my love" thing maybe?

That said make up a fake profile of some young blonde dollybird with impressively pneumatic boobage and say she's open to dating men of all ages from 20 to 60 and she's gonna be inundated as well, so...

It;s hardly a shock to find that the good looking of both genders get more attention than the plain. The difference and advantage that men have is that unlike women they can "earn" more attraction points, both literally and figuratively. Sure, even plain enough women can get lots of online attention, but ask any woman plain or not getting that attention and it's not the attention they want. They don't have it easy either.

CageWager · 30-08-2020 12:44pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Not all women, but yeah remarkably common to see alright. Less in play when younger but by 30 it changes up a gear. I've long considered it to be a domestication process of sorts and I would reckon it's something built into our species going way back and actually what made modern humans different to previous ones, but that's a subject for another day.

Find a guy that's "fixable", domesticatable for the want of a better word and mould him into suburban husband and father material. As I noted with some tongue in cheek action in another thread on here ages ago: Now the wild oats were sown, the draw to the burbs hit like salmon mindlessly rushing upstream to the rivulet of their birth and they were looking for the domesticated kind of cereal. A man of a type that would pass muster among her peers, who would look fine in FaceBook photos of their all pine and promise scandi kitchen on tick, but would slowly go out of focus over time, to be replaced in the foreground by pics of her kids.

I have seen that play out so many times. The courtship can be rushed if it's in the thirties, quite often the woman will pull some crazy moments to see if A) he can take it and will chase her to make sure he's doing things right. Then it's mortgages and brunch after wandering around aimlessly in Ikea being asked for a foregone opinion on light fixtures that if you gave your actual opinion would result in the silent treatment. I've noted the men are generally content enough with this arrangement, with the usual occasional bitching about The Missus and all that, but it has no weight behind it. They're quite terrified of being left(well if you look at cultures where divorce is more common and easy it's overwhelmingly the woman who asks for them). The women (and a couple have been mates of mine) are happy enough with the domesticity and kids, but the Dear Husband is usually in the background. The fun seems to be in the taming maybe?

I dunno, but not for me. Maybe, actually no maybe about it, when I was in my 20's I'd have probably locked into the above situation easily enough. Well I couldn't get arrested in my 20's, or completely missed hints, so would have likely considered myself "so lucky" or some nonsense, but my 30's were very different on that score and I had both relationships; bad and good, and fun; bad and good.

Being 100% honest here? Caveat: the chances are very high I was selecting for a particular personality type so this is no way a reflection on the general experience. But yeah being honest after a while I found "proper" longer term relationships quite hard work. In the sense of being always on. There was always something that needed doing, or fixing. Not relaxing at all. I have found *generalisation alert again* women never bloody relax for very long and don't like men on idle time about the place. EG if you've been working like a galley slave for weeks or whatever and you get the "oh you look tired and worn out of late you should relax at the weekend" I could nearly guarantee that will last about maybe a few hours of you doing nothing of a Saturday before something will need your attention.

Then if you have kids... Kids naturally need a lot of your attention and there's always something going on, both good and bad, thankfully mostly good it seems, but you're generally always on the clock as it were.

TL;DR? After my years of generally putting it about and relationships of different sorts I increasingly found myself not being too pushed TBH. Friends with benefits and other mates in general is a lot easier of a life, at least for me anyway.

Id agree with all of this, especially the idea that quite a few married men become plough horses who blend into the background when the kids come along.

I’m always amazed at how some of my married friends take to the role of “henpecked husband” without any resistance on their part. Maybe I’m missing the gene for putting up with other peoples notions.

Having said all that, I have a great time with women and I don’t subscribe to the MGTOW philosophy at all - IMO men just need to set their own standards and not be bullied into living a life that they don’t want. Of course when you fully commit to being your own man you run straight into the usual feminist shaming tactics but I usually take that as a sign that I’m on the right track in life

Wibbs · 30-08-2020 12:51pm

CageWager wrote: »

I’m always amazed at how some of my married friends take to the role of “henpecked husband” without any resistance on their part.

Because it's comfortable for them after a while. It becomes their life. The relationship starts out like they usually do all love and cuddles and shagging and when that shifts into the next gear then many if not most guys both expect the henpecking or are already too comfortable to risk calling them on it. Or the guy is a an actual lazy uncommunicative eejit.

Having said all that, I have a great time with women and I don’t subscribe to the MGTOW philosophy at all - IMO men just need to set their own standards and not be bullied into living a life that they don’t want. Of course when you fully commit to being your own man you run straight into the usual feminist shaming tactics but I usually take that as a sign that I’m on the right track in life

+1000 and the joke is when you think like that then you get more attention and less grief with it. I have long been convinced that when women become bored of their partners it's for good reason, they became boring. Mostly out of settling for "the quiet life". Going back to the taming bit: If you're never fully "tame" as a man, the interest is kept up. Or at least that's what I've noticed down the years in a few couples.

take everything · 30-08-2020 12:57pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Not all women, but yeah remarkably common to see alright. Less in play when younger but by 30 it changes up a gear. I've long considered it to be a domestication process of sorts and I would reckon it's something built into our species going way back and actually what made modern humans different to previous ones, but that's a subject for another day.

Find a guy that's "fixable", domesticatable for the want of a better word and mould him into suburban husband and father material. As I noted with some tongue in cheek action in another thread on here ages ago: Now the wild oats were sown, the draw to the burbs hit like salmon mindlessly rushing upstream to the rivulet of their birth and they were looking for the domesticated kind of cereal. A man of a type that would pass muster among her peers, who would look fine in FaceBook photos of their all pine and promise scandi kitchen on tick, but would slowly go out of focus over time, to be replaced in the foreground by pics of her kids.

I have seen that play out so many times. The courtship can be rushed if it's in the thirties, quite often the woman will pull some crazy moments to see if A) he can take it and will chase her to make sure he's doing things right. Then it's mortgages and brunch after wandering around aimlessly in Ikea being asked for a foregone opinion on light fixtures that if you gave your actual opinion would result in the silent treatment. I've noted the men are generally content enough with this arrangement, with the usual occasional bitching about The Missus and all that, but it has no weight behind it. They're quite terrified of being left(well if you look at cultures where divorce is more common and easy it's overwhelmingly the woman who asks for them). The women (and a couple have been mates of mine) are happy enough with the domesticity and kids, but the Dear Husband is usually in the background. The fun seems to be in the taming maybe?

I dunno, but not for me. Maybe, actually no maybe about it, when I was in my 20's I'd have probably locked into the above situation easily enough. Well I couldn't get arrested in my 20's, or completely missed hints, so would have likely considered myself "so lucky" or some nonsense, but my 30's were very different on that score and I had both relationships; bad and good, and fun; bad and good.

Being 100% honest here? Caveat: the chances are very high I was selecting for a particular personality type so this is no way a reflection on the general experience. But yeah being honest after a while I found "proper" longer term relationships quite hard work. In the sense of being always on. There was always something that needed doing, or fixing. Not relaxing at all. I have found *generalisation alert again* women never bloody relax for very long and don't like men on idle time about the place. EG if you've been working like a galley slave for weeks or whatever and you get the "oh you look tired and worn out of late you should relax at the weekend" I could nearly guarantee that will last about maybe a few hours of you doing nothing of a Saturday before something will need your attention.

Then if you have kids... Kids naturally need a lot of your attention and there's always something going on, both good and bad, thankfully mostly good it seems, but you're generally always on the clock as it were.

TL;DR? After my years of generally putting it about and relationships of different sorts I increasingly found myself not being too pushed TBH. Friends with benefits and other mates in general is a lot easier of a life, at least for me anyway.

Wibbs typically incisive and brutal in his analysis.

That domestication theory is hilarious (and not untrue).

And yet the Disneyfied part of me is (faintly) yelling say it ain't so.

Tinytemper · 30-08-2020 1:07pm

It can't be just me who finds the men who usually subscribe to the ideas behind the incel, mgtow or whatever groups, to be really sad individuals who are seeking for reasons to explain their lack of success with women. They usually resort to blaming women themselves. I think that's easier to stand behind than having to admit that they just aren't that attractive as a partner. Not looks wise but in many aspects of their life. Bitterness is not an attractive trait.

Mister Vain · 30-08-2020 1:20pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I was that soldier that's for sure. My options in my 30's were significantly higher than in my 20's. Hell in my 40's that was still true. I did find the less I gave a damn, the more options I appeared to have. That said I was never backward in coming forward socially in general and would talk to the wall. If I were introverted, or bad with social cues then that would be a very different setup indeed. Introverted men are pretty screwed unless they do get actually lucky with a woman who is willing to push their buttons. And they exist, but in my experience they're rarer, as the dating and mating culture still puts the "chasing" on the man and the ability to read hints when they come up. I suppose it makes sense as a man with those skills is going to be an easier person to deal with and likely more successful in life. Maybe less so now as STEM and nerdy guys in general can be extremely successful in their careers.

I stopped giving a damn in my 30's which certainly helped in many ways, but it did nothing to increase my dating options. I would have been more introverted in my 20's but there was just so many more single and crazy women back then. Some of them were extremely forward too so me being bad with social cues wasn't as much of an issue.

Now it just seems that everyone in my age group is already taken. For example, the work nights out would have been a great opportunity back in the day, but now, much less so. Nightclubs are out of the question too. Although there is more things to do now outside of the pub/club scene than there was 10 or 15 years ago.

Wibbs · 30-08-2020 1:21pm

Tinytemper wrote: »

It can't be just me who finds the men who usually subscribe to the ideas behind the incel, mgtow or whatever groups, to be really sad individuals who are seeking for reasons to explain their lack of success with women. They usually resort to blaming women themselves. I think that's easier to stand behind than having to admit that they just aren't that attractive as a partner. Not looks wise but in many aspects of their life. Bitterness is not an attractive trait.

There seems to be a difference between the incels and the MGTOW in the sense that the latter are more likely to have been men who have had relationships that went sour rather than never getting a sniff at all. The MGTOW crowd seem to be an older demographic too. Though to be fair my exposure to either is mercifully low so could be all wrong there. Both can be bitter alright, but from different angles. A divorce or breakup of a long termer can make people bitter handily enough. Men and women both, though I've generally found women are far better at resetting the mechanism after something like that. I have had the post relationship WTF and disillusionment thing myself. I don't think it made me bitter at the time, though it made me far more wary and reticent to get into anything like that again. I still went out with women, some for quite a time too, but kept my guard up.

Actually what did make me WTF and yes a little more cynical was that being more guarded got me more attention and fewer outbursts of hassle. That said maybe I had been too open before and the reset back to more balanced was required. So there's that aspect too. I was never one of those treat em mean, keep em keen prick though. Or certainly never aimed to be.

Richard Hillman · 30-08-2020 2:44pm

There is your incel that doesn't have a chance, never had a chance, Hates women, most likely has mental health issues. Pretty much hates everything.

Then there is generally 2 types of MGTOW.

You have the MGTOW that are bitter and yurn to be able to attract women but would get a satisfaction from turning women down as a form of payback.

Then you have men that would just say OK, I'm not going to play the game, so I'll be fully content doing something else. May or may not be open to opportunities if they fell onto your lap but she'd have to practically spray paint it on a wall to convince you to move away from your direction.

8kczg9v0swrydm · 30-08-2020 4:07pm

Although I would not sympathise with MGTOW views, I can completely understand them. I can especially see why many men are shunning marriage.

I think few may admit this, but (I dare say) most men find female promiscuity repulsive. At the bottom of their psychies, men do not want to marry women who had many sexual partners. Sure, they might have a fling with them, but rarely proper commitment.

Since our culture is so heavily sexualised, men find that a lot of the women they meet have 'been around the block'. The more squeamish men might despair of finding true love and building a lasting relationship and dive headlong into work and hobbies. Unless they have certain predispositions, this will be an unnatural life and will therefore, more than likely, not bring them happiness. (This is one of my biggest gripes with MGTOW).

Many of the men who stay on in the dating game will not commit to marriage, hence our plummeting marriage rates. Meanwhile, women find themselves used and discarded, often not realising why. It is also worth mentioning that promiscuity among both sexes impairs the ability to bond properly with one person.

As a side note, I think that the solution to this madness is to once more embrace traditional views on sexuality (as appropriate only within the context of marriage). For men disillusioned with women, I would advise them to seek out a partner from the traditionally-minded communities, where promiscuity is still a no-no.

ancapailldorcha · 30-08-2020 4:12pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I was that soldier that's for sure. My options in my 30's were significantly higher than in my 20's. Hell in my 40's that was still true. I did find the less I gave a damn, the more options I appeared to have. That said I was never backward in coming forward socially in general and would talk to the wall. If I were introverted, or bad with social cues then that would be a very different setup indeed. Introverted men are pretty screwed unless they do get actually lucky with a woman who is willing to push their buttons. And they exist, but in my experience they're rarer, as the dating and mating culture still puts the "chasing" on the man and the ability to read hints when they come up. I suppose it makes sense as a man with those skills is going to be an easier person to deal with and likely more successful in life. Maybe less so now as STEM and nerdy guys in general can be extremely successful in their careers.

Unfortunately, I think I have to agree. I'd definitely be a bit of an introvert who likes to just relax with a book, film or strategy game none of which are conducive to attracting a partner. Still though, I think I'd rather do things I enjoy than just jump through hoops to attract someone.

Church on Tuesday · 30-08-2020 5:07pm

Tinytemper wrote: »

It can't be just me who finds the men who usually subscribe to the ideas behind the incel, mgtow or whatever groups, to be really sad individuals who are seeking for reasons to explain their lack of success with women. They usually resort to blaming women themselves. I think that's easier to stand behind than having to admit that they just aren't that attractive as a partner. Not looks wise but in many aspects of their life. Bitterness is not an attractive trait.

This. Looks are only a small part of it. If you're going around like a moody bollix and have a chip on your shoulder with destructive habits, you may as well start planning the log cabin now my friend.

The problem nearly always lies with these men rather than the women they are trying to pursue. That may seem harsh but it's just the simple reality. Another thing these men seem to not understand is that, in life, very few people will actually be attracted to you on the whole. In other words, surface attraction is fine, but to meet someone you really click with and your outlooks on life more or less match? that's as rare as hens teeth, when it happens it's great, probably the best most fulfilling experience in the world; but it's something that seldom happens.

The most important thing to do is focus on yourself and live your life, If your self esteem and self worth revolves around likes (or rather lack of) on Tinder and you measure yourself by that false metric, then you're ****ed. I have always found the more you move forward in life, the more good things and opportunities fall onto your lap.

Sn@kebite · 30-08-2020 8:12pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

The most important thing to do is focus on yourself and live your life, If your self esteem and self worth revolves around likes (or rather lack of) on Tinder and you measure yourself by that false metric, then you're ****ed. I have always found the more you move forward in life, the more good things and opportunities fall onto your lap.

This is similar to these middle-class feminist types. Hiding in sociology degree programmes and getting likes on instagram feeds and sucking up to only the uni (TCD-esque) types is a large part of their life. A lot of mgtow seem like a male version of this. It's everyone else's fault. They have their legitimate points as do a lot of feminists but a lot of it just isn't activism it's more inferiority. A type of self-pity and a deeply embedded negativity which leads to conspiracy theory attitudes.

Church on Tuesday · 30-08-2020 8:28pm

Sn@kebite wrote: »

This is similar to these middle-class feminist types. Hiding in sociology degree programmes and getting likes on instagram feeds and sucking up to only the uni (TCD-esque) types is a large part of their life. A lot of mgtow seem like a male version of this. It's everyone else's fault. They have their legitimate points as do a lot of feminists but a lot of it just isn't activism it's more inferiority. A type of self-pity and a deeply embedded negativity which leads to conspiracy theory attitudes.

Pretty much. It boils down to a certain lack of self improvement or the want to self improve. If you were to make even small improvements to your life you would be amazed at how better physically you feel and how your mental outlook on things improve.

You can't just sit on your arse and feel sorry for yourself, well you can, and I've been there trust me but you won't have much of a life and you will miss out. Rather than being bitter about negative past life experiences, it is always better to learn from them and frankly it makes you a better man for it.

Wibbs · 30-08-2020 8:41pm

Sn@kebite wrote: »

This is similar to these middle-class feminist types. Hiding in sociology degree programmes and getting likes on instagram feeds and sucking up to only the uni (TCD-esque) types is a large part of their life. A lot of mgtow seem like a male version of this. It's everyone else's fault. They have their legitimate points as do a lot of feminists but a lot of it just isn't activism it's more inferiority. A type of self-pity and a deeply embedded negativity which leads to conspiracy theory attitudes.

Yup, both cheeks of the same smelly gender politic arse. Feminism: Women are always agentless victims and it's always the fault of men/patriarchy. MGTOW/Incel: Men are always agentless victims and it's always the fault of women/matriarchy. Both have their silly jargon too. The only difference is the whinging feminist types get significantly more airtime and leeway.

One thing(though this is a while back so maybe it's changed.. Is it even a thing now?) about the PUA lot that I noticed stood out as different was that they actually took responsibility. :eek: Sure they couched it in moronic Yank sales pitches and endless jargon and some nasty misogyny as a cherry on top, but they were quite clear that the reason the guy wasn't getting laid/a girlfriend was down to him. He needed to improve, he needed to be the better catch, He needed to go to the gym, He needed to get a better haircut, clothes etc and actually ask women out(with a 19.99 vid and e book and "system"...). If it hadn't been mired in a kilometre deep level of bullsh1te it had a few points buried under the crap. Personal responsibility being the biggest. Not a popular angle these days with so many and so many movements and politics and philosophies.

john123470 · 30-08-2020 9:51pm

Originally Posted by Tinytemper

"It can't be just me who finds the men who usually subscribe to the ideas behind the incel, mgtow or whatever groups, to be really sad individuals who are seeking for reasons to explain their lack of success with women. They usually resort to blaming women themselves. I think that's easier to stand behind than having to admit that they just aren't that attractive as a partner. Not looks wise but in many aspects of their life. Bitterness is not an attractive trait."

^^ can all MGTOW's be written off as "sad individuals" .. ?
What makes one "attractive to a partner" ? - Johnny Depp looks, money, a sense of humour ? MGOTW members are allowed to possess these traits

The above post seems to imply that "success" with women will invariably end with marriage and kids - otherwise one becomes a bitter old man who will sign up to the likes of MGTOW groups and "blame" women for their lot

I have read thru the MGOTW site .. find it irreverent, amusing.
They don't advocate for a celibate life - sex is there to be enjoyed. The underpinning philosophy seems to suggest that the great pussy hunt that ends (usually) with wife and sprogs is not all its cracked up to be.

I see nothing wrong with that view. Oddly enough, it is usually women who dismiss it as pitiful

Sn@kebite · 30-08-2020 10:00pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Yup, both cheeks of the same smelly gender politic arse. Feminism: Women are always agentless victims and it's always the fault of men/patriarchy. MGTOW/Incel: Men are always agentless victims and it's always the fault of women/matriarchy. Both have their silly jargon too. The only difference is the whinging feminist types get significantly more airtime and leeway.

I suppose this is the guilt ridden 'woke' culture a previously oppressed group must be endlessly pandered to as a type of reparation. And white middle-class women love it. (Why wouldn't they?)

The issue is they are not just given air time they focus obsessively on the West and ignore systemic oppression of women around the world and are utterly unchallenged. This is more where MRAs come in as possibly a primary movement where I see MGTOW as a sort of offshot. The fact that there are more and more advantages and help for you if you are female and the hypocrisy of MRAs just cannot be compared with feminism which is a more unabashed fine art.

The idea of governments pandering to the "gender pay gap" and men in engineering schools fall over themselves trying to get more women into the approximately 80% male-dominated physics/eng/compsci yet these middle-class white women sit in mental health sciences of 96% female-dominated and are uncontested in their hypocrisy as male tailored services just aren't there due to a female lens default. If MRAs talk about this within seconds feminists derail to hold the female dominated areas in place (health science, biological sciences, arts, humanities, social sciences [you see it's almost everything?) and not an eye-lid batted and women in these fields don;t show any concern at the imbalance. They act as if women are subjugated even though they dominate social narratives via soc-sci channels run by themselves and white females disallow men's groups forming on campuses while telling us all universities are run by men for men. It's a joke tbh. It's got to the stage governments are trying to get more men into teaching to create role models for boys.

This is where I think MRAs point out this hypocritical, self-serving feminist sh1te point directly at feminists as the problem whereas in contrast, MGTOW just blame all women in general and treat it as women are just not worth the hassle. But I think feminists =/= women at all although all women do benefit from a lot of this BS so MGTOW possibly are noticing that.

Errashareesh · 02-09-2020 3:40pm

Sn@kebite wrote: »

This is similar to these middle-class feminist types. Hiding in sociology degree programmes and getting likes on instagram feeds and sucking up to only the uni (TCD-esque) types is a large part of their life. A lot of mgtow seem like a male version of this. It's everyone else's fault. They have their legitimate points as do a lot of feminists but a lot of it just isn't activism it's more inferiority. A type of self-pity and a deeply embedded negativity which leads to conspiracy theory attitudes.

I saw a comment on YouTube from someone about the drudgery of the working day for a middle-aged working-class man (it was actually a clip of the dad in The Wonder Years

) and the commenter said "And we don't even have the luxury now of a woman to come home to, because women only go for the top 20 per cent of men."

Yes, that's right. 80 per cent of men are single.

Whereas the reality is that most people are in a relationship. For some men, there is no interest in them from women. And this sucks - don't get me wrong. I don't wish that on anyone. But instead of facing up to this (which isn't easy I know) they decide it's women who are the problem. Women are nasty, selfish, vain, gold digging, vapid bitches. Of course some are, but in the context I'm talking about it's women full stop, no matter who they are. It's easier to think this. It's also a sign of only being attracted to those bitchy types. Not a reasonable position no matter what.

Can't stand today's feminism either (I'm a white middleclass woman but more influenced by the likes of Gloria Steinem than the current crop. Old skool feminists are also being condemned by younger, woke feminists now due to the transgender debates).

02-09-2020 4:12pm

You're not reading posts by 60-year-old married men. The people posting that sort of stuff are more likely to be younger and the numbers are skewed pretty heavily. 80% is actually fairly accurate around the age of 25-30, an age where people could be comparing their progress in life to their parents. I know mine had children and a house by then. Not really saying I agree with the sentiment but you have to be aware of how this stuff breaks down before you dismiss it.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp4hf/cp4hf/ms/

Figure 1.2 Click the buttons.

"By age 33 women were more likely to be married than single, while for men this happened at age 35."

Wibbs · 02-09-2020 4:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp4hf/cp4hf/ms/

Figure 1.2 Click the buttons.

"By age 33 women were more likely to be married than single, while for men this happened at age 35."

Eh... Who were the 33 year old women all married to then, other women, themselves? Nope, they were married to men. Likely those 35 year old men as men and women tend to pair up where the guy is a few years older.

The plain fact is most people end up in a relationship of a long term nature, bad, good or indifferent.* Most have a kid or more.

Now for those men who've never had a relationship by say 30 this is a problem and a hard enough nut to crack. Sad to say, but honestly it's down to the guy. Now often it's most certainly not his fault. I mean if he's by nature extremely reserved and introverted then that's a major hurdle to jump and a major disadvantage unless he gets lucky(and many do). If he's fallen out of the ugly tree and hit all the branches going down then that's not a positive, though of the guys I know who've had the most action only one is actually handsome. One guy I know who has never been without female company since his teens and his wife is obviously younger and better looking always struggled with his weight and very average in looks and wouldn't be a great raconteur by any means. How does he do it? He never stopped trying and often failing and lord he had some I can't watch car crash type public examples of being blown out of it. But he kept putting the effort in. It's how he operates in life. Try, fail, move on, try again. If in the morning his wife left him, if he was still single in six months I'd be shocked. And he's in his mid fifties.

*it has been my experience that the latter is most in play.

IAMAMORON · 02-09-2020 5:59pm

It also needs to be said that mgtows are foregoing that most pleasureable pursuit of the unrequited.... the chase.

Call me old fashioned but i do like life better when the seeds of love are potentially on the horizon. I am putting my hands up here, I am a hopeless romantic. I need to be crushing on someone, it gives me soul and fills me with aspiration. I am a midnight hour junckie, full confession.

Ubbquittious · 02-09-2020 6:23pm

For every lad who is into this MGTOW carry on there is some woman sitting at home under a duvet with a bottle of wine, a jar of nutella and netflix on. Do those have an organised movement yet? Most of them are also on tinder but couldn't be bothered with anyone

This is a big thing in South Korea anyway https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/til-death-do-i-stay-single-south-koreas-nomarriage-women

Modern life must be to blame for some part of it. You can sit at home soaking up an endless amount of (pixel-based) entertainment and food and drink without rising out of one's seat and soon you'll be able to do it all on your universal basic income. No need to bother with having a partner, sure after the honey moon period finishes you'd be only having rows anyway.

If all the modern conveniences disappeared in the morning the women with the netflix and nutella would all be crying out for a fat fella with a big beard who used to play computer games all day to help bring in the turf and slaughter the pigs.

Sunny Disposition · 02-09-2020 6:34pm

Get the impression that things looked very bleak for young fellas a few years ago, but the balance is shifting, am noticing a bit of push back against the more ludicrous elements of feminism recently.
It won’t be picked up by the likes of the Irish Times for a long time yet, but it’s becoming ‘a thing’ on social media.

ancapailldorcha · 02-09-2020 7:16pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Now for those men who've never had a relationship by say 30 this is a problem and a hard enough nut to crack. Sad to say, but honestly it's down to the guy. Now often it's most certainly not his fault. I mean if he's by nature extremely reserved and introverted then that's a major hurdle to jump and a major disadvantage unless he gets lucky(and many do). If he's fallen out of the ugly tree and hit all the branches going down then that's not a positive, though of the guys I know who've had the most action only one is actually handsome. One guy I know who has never been without female company since his teens and his wife is obviously younger and better looking always struggled with his weight and very average in looks and wouldn't be a great raconteur by any means. How does he do it? He never stopped trying and often failing and lord he had some I can't watch car crash type public examples of being blown out of it. But he kept putting the effort in. It's how he operates in life. Try, fail, move on, try again. If in the morning his wife left him, if he was still single in six months I'd be shocked. And he's in his mid fifties.

Well, I have my health I suppose.

Ubbquittious wrote: »

For every lad who is into this MGTOW carry on there is some woman sitting at home under a duvet with a bottle of wine, a jar of nutella and netflix on. Do those have an organised movement yet? Most of them are also on tinder but couldn't be bothered with anyone

This is a big thing in South Korea anyway https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/til-death-do-i-stay-single-south-koreas-nomarriage-women

Modern life must be to blame for some part of it. You can sit at home soaking up an endless amount of (pixel-based) entertainment and food and drink without rising out of one's seat and soon you'll be able to do it all on your universal basic income. No need to bother with having a partner, sure after the honey moon period finishes you'd be only having rows anyway.

If all the modern conveniences disappeared in the morning the women with the netflix and nutella would all be crying out for a fat fella with a big beard who used to play computer games all day to help bring in the turf and slaughter the pigs.

I don't think it's that aspect of modern life.

To address your link, from what I know a lot of Asian countries are quite patriarchal so if feminism is making grounds there then this is a logical corollary.

Back to modern life, I think it's become quite a bit more difficult for people to go down the route that their parents did, setting aside whether or not they want to. Anyone who wants any sort of a career is strongly incentivised to move to a big city. More tenants means rents skyrocket and there's only political will to maintain the status quo, not fix it. My Father worked while my Mum maintained the farm, shopped, cleaned and took care of us. Here in London, I'd need a partner just so we could split the rent on a single bedroom flat. Of course we could move out of the city and commute but then there's the obscene commuting costs and time wasted to boot.

Not to say that it's impossible. If the government tripled the price of Coca-Cola tomorrow, people would still buy it, just in smaller amounts. Couples are still buying houses and starting families. I think for a lot of people, if they don't think they'll ever get on the property ladder, they adopt a stronger mindset of living in the moment and so spend on experiences like travelling. I don't drink, don't drive, own a phone, rarely go out (Introvert life, joy) and pay less than a score a month for said phone and if I ever buy here it'll be down to my folks giving me a dig out, not my savings.

I'll stick to my map-staring simulator even though modern conveniences are pretty much here to stay. I managed to impress someone at work by knowing where Brunei is so I have that.

H3llR4iser · 02-09-2020 7:46pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

For every lad who is into this MGTOW carry on there is some woman sitting at home under a duvet with a bottle of wine, a jar of nutella and netflix on. Do those have an organised movement yet? Most of them are also on tinder but couldn't be bothered with anyone.

There are, lots of them as a matter of fact - but guess what? It is an universally accepted fact, by mainstream media, that their plight be the fault of men.

Woman can't find a guy? It's because there aren't any "real men" left. She has one or multiple off-putting characteristics that objectively restrict her pool? It's the fault of men for basically not lowering their standards and accept her as she is.

Heck, even the "beauty standards" imposed by fashion and the "lifestyle magazines" culture, mostly imposed by women on women for women, it's normally blamed on men, regardless of the fact that most dudes would quite frankly fcuk a hole in the wall if someone painted a pair of tiddies near it.

I get all of the criticism of the various "men's movements" - be it MGTOW, MRA and even "incel", a lot of it is just self pitying; Yet in an environment where each and every single issue affecting women is openly, publicly and incessantly blamed on men, is it really that surprising that some criticism starts flying the other way? As long as we have the single woman = men's fault and single man = his own fault attitude, all of this is going basically nowhere.

ancapailldorcha · 02-09-2020 7:49pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

There are, lots of them as a matter of fact - but guess what? It is an universally accepted fact, by mainstream media, that their plight be the fault of men.

Woman can't find a guy? It's because there aren't any "real men" left. She has one or multiple off-putting characteristics that objectively restrict her pool? It's the fault of men for basically not lowering their standards and accept her as she is.

Heck, even the "beauty standards" imposed by fashion and the "lifestyle magazines" culture, mostly imposed by women on women for women, it's normally blamed on men, regardless of the fact that most dudes would quite frankly fcuk a hole in the wall is someone painted a pair of tiddies near it.

I get all of the criticism of the various "men's movements" - be it MGTOW, MRA and even "incel", a lot of it is just self pitying; Yet in an environment where each and every single issue affecting women is openly, publicly and incessantly blamed on men, is it really that surprising that some criticism starts flying the other way? As long as we have the single woman = men's fault and single man = his own fault attitude, all of this is going basically nowhere.

And not once will you ever hear an appraisal of what she brings to the table. Only her criteria.

milehip · 02-09-2020 7:55pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Get the impression that things looked very bleak for young fellas a few years ago, but the balance is shifting, am noticing a bit of push back against the more ludicrous elements of feminism recently.
It won’t be picked up by the likes of the Irish Times for a long time yet, but it’s becoming ‘a thing’ on social media.

Any particular example(s) of this push back you'd care to illustrate?

02-09-2020 8:00pm

Into my 30s now and still no interest from women. Will be changing career now and once I'm settled in that and still single I'll be moving to a couple of acres with a shed to dick about with woodwork and cars and bikes. Might as well get some benefit from being on my own. :pac:
Women aren't interested, never have been so yeah, that means I hate them. :pac:

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-09-2020 10:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is. It seems no matter what men do, it's open to ridicule, especially by women like Laura Bates who write books titled Men Who Hate Women. She wrote the article linked above.

Nice guys are mocked.

Nice guys aren’t mocked. “Nice” guys are. There’s a difference. The “nice” guy is a guy who thinks that being (their idea) of nice entitles them to a relationship or sex with whoever they are aiming that “niceness” at. Most women have experienced this guy at some point in their lives. These guys are in reality not very nice at all and that reveals itself sooner or later.

Whereas a sound guy who is just sound will not be mocked. Because they are not expecting anything simply for being a decent human being.

02-09-2020 10:56pm

Ah the old "expectations" thing. I don't **** anyone over, treat people well, am well-read and have various interests. How dare I "expect" that any woman in Ireland might possibly consider giving me the time of day?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-09-2020 11:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah the old "expectations" thing. I don't **** anyone over, treat people well, am well-read and have various interests. How dare I "expect" that any woman in Ireland might possibly consider giving me the time of day?

Did you miss the part where I said your average, genuinely nice guy doesn’t have those expectations? It’s weird that my post prompted your post. If you are just a sound guy, why would you even think I was talking about you?

There is a particular strain of “nice” guy - that’s who gets mocked. In reality they turn out to be quite sullen and bitter (and it’s thankfully pretty obvious, pretty quickly) because the nice thing didn’t work. Thankfully they are not that commonplace.

02-09-2020 11:06pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Did you miss the part where I said your average, genuinely nice guy doesn’t have those expectations? It’s weird that my post prompted your post. If you are just a sound guy, why would you even think I was talking about you?

There is a particular strain of “nice” guy - that’s who gets mocked. In reality they turn out to be quite sullen and bitter (and it’s thankfully pretty obvious, pretty quickly) because the nice thing didn’t work. Thankfully they are not that commonplace.

Because I'm one of the losers who can't get a woman despite the fact that I would consider myself a decent person. If I say I'm nice then does that not get put in inverted commas?

Mongfinder General · 02-09-2020 11:07pm

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Men-Strike-Boycotting-Marriage-Fatherhood/dp/1594037620

Men on strike was a book written a few years ago. It basically sets out the reasons why men aren't arsed about getting married nowadays. There's too much to lose. They don't gain anything by getting married. So why do it?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-09-2020 11:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Because I'm one of the losers who can't get a woman despite the fact that I would consider myself a decent person. If I say I'm nice then does that not get put in inverted commas?

Do you act sullen and bitter when rejected? If not, then you are not who I’m talking about.

02-09-2020 11:12pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Do you act sullen and bitter when rejected? If not, then you are not who I’m talking about.

No I immediately strut into town with Walking on Sunshine blaring from a car following me at walking pace like any normal person would.

02-09-2020 11:18pm

It's like there are three types of nice guys. The arseholes who think their being nice entitles them to women and they're bitter, the lads in middle who are just nice and lack any sort of "game" and can't see a woman being interested, and the nice guys who do. The ones in the middle end up friendzoning themselves but don't expect that the woman should like them romantically just because they get on well.

Just my opinion.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-09-2020 11:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

No I immediately strut into town with Walking on Sunshine blaring from a car following me at walking pace like any normal person would.

Okay then, maybe you are who I’m talking about after all. You seem determined to steer yourself into that category for some reason.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's like there are three types of nice guys. The arseholes who think their being nice entitles them to women and they're bitter, the lads in middle who are just nice and lack any sort of "game" and can't see a woman being interested, and the nice guys who do. The ones in the middle end up friendzoning themselves but don't expect that the woman should like them romantically just because they get on well.

Just my opinion.

And of course the first category aren’t actually nice at all.

02-09-2020 11:28pm

I've been told I'm in the category. Generally I find stating facts that are not flattering to women gets one called names quite quickly.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 02-09-2020 11:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been told I'm in the category. Generally I find stating facts that are not flattering to women gets one called names quite quickly.

How do you mean? This is me being genuinely curious now, not confrontational!

02-09-2020 11:35pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

How do you mean? This is me being genuinely curious now, not confrontational!

For example if I say "Women are just as shallow as men" that's an instant "Uh-oh, loser"/"You hate women".

In the spirit of not being confrontational the rush to label and for want of a better term, "blame" guys for having any slightly undesirable ideas helps push them toward the reddit/4chan losers. Women who have negative experiences with guys are told it's not their fault and guys are assholes. Guys who make any complaint about women (regardless of experience) are told they're wrong, get over themselves, why do you think you're "entitled" to anything anyway? Etc.

Sn@kebite · 03-09-2020 12:01am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And not once will you ever hear an appraisal of what she brings to the table. Only her criteria.

It seems a general unspoken consensus that just be being female (especially if she's white, middle-class and a feminist) is an absolute treasure chest in itself that a man is a lucky fcker for her to condescend to settling for him (as I'm sure you were alluding to).

It seem a general embedded view of underneath everything women are good (sugar, spice and all things nice) while men underneath everything are bad. This is how feminism ironically set it's foundations especially academically that men bring a damage and destruction to the world and women bring a healing and nurturing virtue to the world. It's patriarchy (goldie-locks and the three bears/little red riding hood) and benevolent sexism but it's upheld by women and male feminist types (Obama/Biden and that idiot Jackson Katz).

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-09-2020 12:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

For example if I say "Women are just as shallow as men" that's an instant "Uh-oh, loser"/"You hate women".

Okay, we are talking about different things then. By “nice” guys, I’m talking men for whom the nice facade quickly falls away when a women rejects them along the lines of “Well, you weren’t such hot shit anyway”.

Nobody is entitled to sex or a date. And I say that as somebody who if I were a single woman tomorrow, I’d likely never date again because life circumstances have placed me firmly at the bottom of the dating barrel. It wouldn’t be remotely fair but it would be my reality.

03-09-2020 12:14am

Followed. This should be fun to read tomorrow.

Keep it up folks.

worded · 03-09-2020 12:16am

Two jokes if I may, offend some people

1 ===

Son says ... dad in some countries you don’t know who your wife is until you get married

Father replies ... it’s like that everywhere son

2 ===

Father says to son

Today is a very special day, you will always cherish and cherish this day

Sons says .... but dad, I’m not getting married until tomorrow

Father says ... I know

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-09-2020 12:17am

Deleted User wrote: »

Followed. This should be fun to read tomorrow.

Keep it up folks.

I’m pretty much done. I’m already regretting interjecting in the first place.

Errashareesh · 03-09-2020 7:36am

Sn@kebite wrote: »

It seems a general unspoken consensus that just be being female (especially if she's white, middle-class and a feminist) is an absolute treasure chest in itself that a man is a lucky fcker for her to condescend to settling for him (as I'm sure you were alluding to).

It seem a general embedded view of underneath everything women are good (sugar, spice and all things nice) while men underneath everything are bad. This is how feminism ironically set it's foundations especially academically that men bring a damage and destruction to the world and women bring a healing and nurturing virtue to the world. It's patriarchy (goldie-locks and the three bears/little red riding hood) and benevolent sexism but it's upheld by women and male feminist types (Obama/Biden and that idiot Jackson Katz).

Crikey I don't think most people think that! I know there is some degree of it but a general unspoken consensus? And that a man is a lucky ****er for her to condescend to settling for him? Yaysus!

And also, in the cases of that happening, I think how much men propagate it should be taken into consideration too. I mean, in a thread about a scummy couple who attacked a man in Australia, if you saw the amount of "She's hot though".

ancapailldorcha · 03-09-2020 8:31am

Sn@kebite wrote: »

It seems a general unspoken consensus that just be being female (especially if she's white, middle-class and a feminist) is an absolute treasure chest in itself that a man is a lucky fcker for her to condescend to settling for him (as I'm sure you were alluding to).

It seem a general embedded view of underneath everything women are good (sugar, spice and all things nice) while men underneath everything are bad. This is how feminism ironically set it's foundations especially academically that men bring a damage and destruction to the world and women bring a healing and nurturing virtue to the world. It's patriarchy (goldie-locks and the three bears/little red riding hood) and benevolent sexism but it's upheld by women and male feminist types (Obama/Biden and that idiot Jackson Katz).

I wasn't alluding to anything at all, at least not intentionally.

Years of being on dating sites and seeing profiles with either no effort or a lit of criteria that must be met it a man expects any sort of response have just made me a bit cynical. Anyone can have whatever criteria they want but they've only themselves to blame if they rigidly enforce said criteria.

There seems to be less of an appetite for compromise (if that's the correct term) amongst women compared to men. Just my experience of course.

BrianD3 · 03-09-2020 8:50am

Nice guys? Some may be assholes in disguise, many are just fairly timid guys lacking in confidence. Insults directed at these guys by women include
-he's gay
-he's a fanny
-he's harmless

As for the assholes in disguise, I read a study once (can't remember where) that found that women overestimate their abilities to read people. They think that they have a talent in this area which could explain why Psychology degrees are female dominated.

When you combine this with the "almighty vagina" mentality, problems arise. The man who is nice to a woman is a creep because he just wants to ride her - just like every other man. When a man says he's a MGTOW - well he's just a liar as he wants to ride her too. Alternatively, he's just rationalising his inability to get a woman. But wait, what if he's genuine? Oh no - my vagina isn't as almighty as I thought it was!

Wibbs · 03-09-2020 9:35am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Well, I have my health I suppose.

And youth too. If that mate of mine I mentioned could get a date and likely something more if he was single and in his 50's why couldn't you?

H3llR4iser wrote: »

There are, lots of them as a matter of fact - but guess what? It is an universally accepted fact, by mainstream media, that their plight be the fault of men.

Woman can't find a guy? It's because there aren't any "real men" left. She has one or multiple off-putting characteristics that objectively restrict her pool? It's the fault of men for basically not lowering their standards and accept her as she is.

There's a few angles to this stuff. Almost all of it coming from American culture(both dating and the wider culture) that yet again we've hoovered up wholesale and applied it to here. Though the very nature of online dating, again an American thing in origin, tends to drive things the same way. Add in the same American daft "feminism" which has both women and men confused with mixed signals and here we are. For the craic I looked up "real man meme" and here's an example of the confusion I'm talking about.

Note the hastag empoweringwomennow. Yet the "real man" in that scenario is leading her, essentially treating her old style and she wants that. God forbid she'd think of organising things herself. "I got this" also almost certainly means he's paying for whatever "it" is. There's a quite large subsection of modern "feminists" that want to be treated like old fashioned pre feminist women(minus the more prickly requirements and consequences) and that's confusing to both men and women. Though again this is much more an American cultural thing imported to here. American culture has few social safety nets so a man's ability to provide and flash the cash is much more in play, because an unexpected pregnancy, or even an expected one with a guy who can't could easily enough lead to food stamps and what few social supports there are.

The same anti marriage stuff is also American in origin. Well for good reasons over there as men are much more likely to lose financially, socially and emotionally, never mind access to their kids post US divorce and in over 70% of cases it's women who call for divorce. If I were an American man with his sh1t together and much to lose, I'd be very wary of marriage over there. Even so most US marriages don't end in divorce.

Wibbs · 03-09-2020 9:48am

Again the plain fact is most men and women end up with someone. Those that stay single for life are very much a minority. If you find yourself in that minority and want to not be in it then it's in your hands to make changes.

Now it's going to be hard if you're an extreme introvert, because that's about the biggest negative in trying to rustle up a date and relationship. Much more so if you're a bloke as you're expected to do the approaching, at least the overt sort. Therapy might help? And I personally would rarely recommend that, tends to lead to neurotic navel gazing in my experience, but might be a good option here. Become a joiner not an observer. The more people you meet the more chances and options you have.

Also, know your options. There are indeed "leagues" and soft around the middle 5'5 Paddy in cubicle 4 won't have the same options as 6'4 Jim Manjaw head of accounts. And where do you lie in the league tables? Well if you'd had relationships and flings over the years then the most objectively attractive woman in that line up is your "league". If you've never had even a fling then who knows.

Don't think of failure or rejection as an end, think of it as a part of the learning process to success. Fcukups often teach us more about ourselves than lucky successes.

FintanMcluskey · 03-09-2020 9:53am

Wibbs wrote: »

Even so most US marriages don't end in divorce.

Are you sure about that? I thought it was 50% of marriages in the last 10 years fail in the US?

MGTOW = “men going their own way”

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