MGTOW = “men going their own way”

IAMAMORON

worded wrote: »

Put Nail varnish on one hand and when it dries put that hand in the freezer for one or two mins. Feels and looks like someone else’s hand then

If you are used to Alaskan hand jobs actioned with a blind fold.

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

Times change. I know a variety of guys in IT who would traditionally have been called absolute geeks, and yet, they're all in relatively stable relationships with quite good looking women. Being a nerd or geek is attractive to some women. The internet changed a lot of the way that some women perceive men, especially those women who want a guy who is unlikely to cheat on her. Besides which, these guys also tend to get paid well, and be employable throughout their lives.

I'm not writing off a whole sector, Im sure Im talking about a minority, it would depend on they would answer a survey about how happy they are with their social lives and do they view the dating/relationship scene as largely a good one or am overly frustrating one.

worded

silverharp wrote: »

Men have 4 general ways to be attractive to women , appearance, confidence, wealth and status and except at the extreme end there isnt one of those factors a man cant improve. If an 18 year old guy thinks mgtow is for him, im just going to suggest he is a lazy entitled bastad. A bit of red pilling is useful to understand he equation of life but it should be a motivation to help stack the deck in your particular favor not to give up

Two examples of wealth - see attached.

BrianD3

Discussion on MGTOW often seems to revolve around women and (avoiding) marriage, women are only interested in you as a sperm and money donor etc. My take on MGTOW is that there is much more to it than that. As I said in an earlier post, it has common ground with the FIRE movement. Also involves resilience and independence and not being a good little worker drone whose efforts benefit other people.

I'm in my 40s and it is finally dawning on me that most of my friendships have been transactional/situational, that I cannot rely on other people to give a crap about me or on "friends" to make any effort to keep friendships alive.

As an aside, my mother has dementia and I am her sole carer - even though the dementia is not too bad yet, the few remaining "friends" that she had have disappeared, this isn't a coincidence. The so called health service is also completely useless, no home help to assist me/my mother. Also, not even one f*cking physiotherapy session to help her rehab after she fell a few months ago. Again, you can't rely on anyone.

I've also been shafted in the workplace by people who claimed to be mates beforehand - and even now, post shafting, are still using the phrase "as a friend...". :rolleyes:

I think the red pill idea of "frame" when dealing with women is also applicable to other areas of a man's life.

Save your money, lift weights, don't take any sh*t, don't rely on the state, treat everybody you meet with suspicion unless they prove otherwise. And even then, realise that any relationship that you form with anyone is probably going to be transactional unless you are very fortunate.

IAMAMORON

@BrianD3 , I understand the frustration, but part of MGTOW is finding a suitable vacuum to insulate yourself from mental torture. Yes, it is frustrating when you realise that you were just an element of a shallow friends mental design, but you cannot get bitter at this realisation.

The world is full of solid, decent people. This is the truth. Stop wasting your time wallowing in self pity, you seem smart, pick your pain up and own it. Once you have done this categorise in the " shít I am not doing again and have no more time for going forward " section of your priorities. Only do and share stuff, things and your life with people who are worth it. They are everywhere. Do not wallow in bitterness, it will not help.

tylercheribini

There are journalists linking MGTOW with Trump and white supremacy, never witnessed it meself, what I take from it is lads just not arsed getting married, which I felt like anyway before I even knew what MGTOW was.

john123470

BrianD3 wrote: »

Save your money, lift weights, don't take any sh*t, don't rely on the state, treat everybody you meet with suspicion unless they prove otherwise. And even then, realise that any relationship that you form with anyone is probably going to be transactional unless you are very fortunate.

Exactly this ^^. Pity its not on the curriculum in schools.

And its not 'bitterness' as someone described the above. It seems to be a practical common sense take on how he sees things. He's not threatening anyone. Hes trying to deal with his reality

Good luck with your mother. Kudos for taking care of her

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

Save your money, lift weights, don't take any sh*t, don't rely on the state, treat everybody you meet with suspicion unless they prove otherwise. And even then, realise that any relationship that you form with anyone is probably going to be transactional unless you are very fortunate.

All relationships are transactional to one extent or another. There's always a give and take involved. Sometimes the exchange is obvious, and others less so.

I think it's just easier to see it this way because we're single in our 40s. I find people in loving relationships trick themselves into believing that there's nothing being transacted, but the truth is that trust is being exchanged, along with security or any number of other reasons to stay together.

Still, none of that is a negative. If anything, recognising the transactional aspect of relationships is a positive because you can judge what's needed to create or maintain the relationship.

tylercheribini wrote: »

There are journalists linking MGTOW with Trump and white supremacy, never witnessed it meself, what I take from it is lads just not arsed getting married, which I felt like anyway before I even knew what MGTOW was.

As with any large movement, it attracts all sorts. Journalists want to find the sticky dramatic angles to report on. There's nothing interesting about a group of guys supporting each other... but linking them to extreme woman haters? That's going to sell well.

I know a variety of people who describe themselves as part of MTGOW. Most are normal guys who have decided to simplify their lives, but reducing the impact that women can influence... There's no hatred, anger, or bitterness. Whereas I am a moderator on a number of male support groups, and you'll often see such bitterness/hate, and yet, these guys wouldn't ever consider themselves as MTGOW.

It's like feminists. Some are complete nutters, many as ignorant asshats, some pursue agendas of their own, and many others have very pure/positive intentions... MTGOW is similar. People and journalists (especially Americans) feel the need to simplify everything, removing the shades of complexity... trying to find the drama.

iptba

I think a lot of men can get frustrated by the rules of the transaction: they can feel they are sticking to their side of the bargain but still aren’t benefiting e.g. with sex. So it’s different to many simpler transactions.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

I think a lot of men can get frustrated by the rules of the transaction: they can feel they are sticking to their side of the bargain but still aren’t benefiting e.g. with sex. So it’s different to many simpler transactions.

I think the problem is the pedestal that many boys/men put women on. They consider the woman to have greater value than they would place on themselves, not that they ever consider their own value, but place an inordinate amount of importance on the women in their sight. It could be sex, beauty, a meeting of minds, whatever, but even as a gender, women tend to placed on a special kind of pedestal, with high expectations included, but fail to meet those expectations.... because they're still human and flawed.

The rules are what you make of them. It's really that simple. However, many guys will accept perceived common rules coming from society, as if they need to follow them religiously... In most areas of society where men are involved, they negotiate, argue, push for their own needs to be covered. It's one of the main drivers behind male success vs female success in society/work. Men, typically, pursue their professional aims with greater determination, making up the rules that suit them best.

However, when it comes to women, they no longer do that. Instead, they accept the boundaries that women set, and then get frustrated when women move those boundaries or simply pick someone else. If you're honest with yourself, virtually all of your successful relationships happened because you didn't accept her frame about the relationship, instead, you put your own rules/objectives into play.

This is not about being a bastard, or an evil prick. It's about being a man. Which is why we see so many attacks on being a man by feminists, because men won't accept the BS rules that they put into play. Whereas, a needy guy will. Thus passing all power/influence over to the female gender. So... be a man. Take control over your life. Don't get bitter because in all likelihood, the mistakes happened because you stopped guiding the relationship... you allowed the woman to take control somewhere along the way. And once that happens, she will, invariably lose respect for you, and try to find someone else who will challenge her.

CageWager

iptba wrote: »

I think a lot of men can get frustrated by the rules of the transaction: they can feel they are sticking to their side of the bargain but still aren’t benefiting e.g. with sex. So it’s different to many simpler transactions.

This is very true.

If a women wants to withhold sex after a certain length of time in a relationship it is deemed perfectly ok - in fact a husband would be demonised for seeking sex from her or someone else, i.e not just accepting her diktat (pun intended)

On the flip side - if I get into a relationship with a women and one of the main attractions from her POV is my above average income and resulting lifestyle, I can't turn around after 10 years and say "hey babe, I just don't feel like earning $250k per year any more so I am going to unilaterally quit my job, sell the house, give all my money to charity, and take a part time job in the local spar.

I'd image the man withholding money would get a very different reaction to the women withholding sex. With her its "her body, her choice". With him its "you earn it, I am entitled to it in perpetuity".

Another delightful double standard that gets absolutely no media coverage.

IAMAMORON

iptba wrote: »

I think a lot of men can get frustrated by the rules of the transaction: they can feel they are sticking to their side of the bargain but still aren’t benefiting e.g. with sex. So it’s different to many simpler transactions.

I know plenty of married men who shrug their shoulders at this. Some of them have had flings and almost all of them have engaged a sex worker. I say almost all because I cannot be sure in 2 cases and I would not like to insinuate.

But by the by, any men I know who are living in a sexless marriage are actively seeking nookie elsewhere. I don't blame them either.

In saying all that, I also know of two married women who not only turned off the matrimonial taps, but also played the field elsewhere. That also happens.

Which leads inevitably to the divorce argument and its' inequalities. As I said most men that I am friendly with have engaged a sex worker and lived with the guilt as opposed to the detriment of splitting their family and exposing them to heartache. I would imagine there are a few wives out there that might be shrugging their shoulders ( albeit disconcertingly) at this fact also.

iptba

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I know plenty of married men who shrug their shoulders at this. Some of them have had flings and almost all of them have engaged a sex worker. I say almost all because I cannot be sure in 2 cases and I would not like to insinuate.

But by the by, any men I know who are living in a sexless marriage are actively seeking nookie elsewhere. I don't blame them either.

In saying all that, I also know of two married women who not only turned off the matrimonial taps, but also played the field elsewhere. That also happens.

Which leads inevitably to the divorce argument and its' inequalities. As I said most men that I am friendly with have engaged a sex worker and lived with the guilt as opposed to the detriment of splitting their family and exposing them to heartache. I would imagine there are a few wives out there that might be shrugging their shoulders ( albeit disconcertingly) at this fact also.

It is now against the law to use a sex worker in Ireland (though not to provide the service) meaning it’s a bigger gamble than in the past to use one

IAMAMORON

iptba wrote: »

It is now against the law to use a sex worker in Ireland (though not to provide the service) meaning it’s a bigger gamble than in the past to use one

You are spot on and I understand and respect the nature of your response.

CageWager

iptba wrote: »

It is now against the law to use a sex worker in Ireland (though not to provide the service) meaning it’s a bigger gamble than in the past to use one

That's why god invented golf trips to Portugal and Spain, right?

Idbatterim

I find lots of this interestimg. But at the end of the day, isnt it all human.nature? Is it mens fault we are attracted to usually younger, good looking females?

So can you really blame them being attracted to status, hierarchy etc? I mean we are only highly evolved animals at the end of the day...

Women can have sex on tap. Men would love that. Many men can get it with women, even when they are poor. Lots of men dont struggle with attracting women. I get its a bit of a lottery, your looks, personalify etc... some are just luckier than others. But I found in my younger days, mid thirties now. The average lads did bloody well , if they had the confidence to approach...

Was on few tinder dates over last few months, the women said, what they wouldnt give to be approached in a bar these days!

Mongfinder General

I think that any man who finds himself in a loveless, sexless marriage has to be smart and try to get along with his wife. In effect, play the long game. If a man slings his hook, storms out and finds an abode elsewhere, he will get slaughtered in the family law court. He will be on the hook for tens of thousands Euro.

This is easier said than done. It involves an extreme level of persistence and patience. You will need to be mentally and physically strong. You have to be able to take the **** you hate for a prolonged period of time and pretty much agree to your wife controlling your life, relationship and family home. You will need to watch every penny and try to get as much money offside as possible without it showing up in a bank account. And without your wife noticing. It can be done. You'll then need to choose a time that facilitates an exit that benefits you (hopefully when kids have grown up). When you do decide to do this, the reaction of your wife can range from total shock to incandescent rage.

Chances are, she'll be extremely resentful to begin with. Bitterness will grow when the cost hits home - no help with tv and broadband bills, car insurance, car payments, electricity, gas, health insurance, home or life insurance etc. None of this is your concern unless a judge says so. Plus all the chores and work you do in helping maintain the family home now falls on her.

Be strategic. Action can be the enemy of thought. Do not rush things. That's what probably got you into the mess in the first place.

iptba

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I think that any man who finds himself in a loveless, sexless marriage has to be smart and try to get along with his wife. In effect, play the long game. If a man slings his hook, storms out and finds an abode elsewhere, he will get slaughtered in the family law court. He will be on the hook for tens of thousands Euro.

This is easier said than done. It involves an extreme level of persistence and patience. You will need to be mentally and physically strong. You have to be able to take the **** you hate for a prolonged period of time and pretty much agree to your wife controlling your life, relationship and family home. You will need to watch every penny and try to get as much money offside as possible without it showing up in a bank account. And without your wife noticing. It can be done. You'll then need to choose a time that facilitates an exit that benefits you (hopefully when kids have grown up). When you do decide to do this, the reaction of your wife can range from total shock to incandescent rage.

Chances are, she'll be extremely resentful to begin with. Bitterness will grow when the cost hits home - no help with tv and broadband bills, car insurance, car payments, electricity, gas, health insurance, home or life insurance etc. None of this is your concern unless a judge says so. Plus all the chores and work you do in helping maintain the family home now falls on her.

Be strategic. Action can be the enemy of thought. Do not rush things. That's what probably got you into the mess in the first place.

Interesting. Though there is a reasonable chance she might push for a divorce before that.

Sleepy

I think it's pretty standard advice for any man facing a divorce to take out a loan to upgrade the car, make regular cash withdrawals to be "frittered away in the pub/bookies" and generally use any means at their disposal to limit what the court sees as your "disposable" income in order to minimise the financial impact of a divorce. The sad reality for many is no matter what they do, they simply can't afford to leave a marriage: one decent income can be stretched to support a household, it can't cover two. And in most households where there's only one income, or only one substantial income, it's the man who'll be earning it. I'm fortunate in that we have a happy marriage but I'm under no illusions that were things to go wrong, I'd be destitute.

IAMAMORON

In fairness to all concerned, marriage is a life long contract. Everyone heading in there need to check themselves before entering. The fact remains that the law remains on the side of the family, rightly so.

Any man getting married needs to be aware of the contract and if he is planning on children he is looking at at least a 20-25 year sentence. The law may appear unfair, but no man can crib once he has taken the vows.

I am not picking sides here either, but men need to know the consequences of marriage.

It is a leap of faith and it is the responsibility of both partners to enable a successful marriage, this may not work, but men need to make firm decisions before they go there.

IAMAMORON

IAMAMORON wrote: »

In fairness to all concerned, marriage is a life long contract.

Unless you're female. The law is definitely still skewed to protect women coming out of marriage, to provide for them, and the custody of children from that marriage.

The simple truth is that marriage is a major risk, with serious downsides for males. You might, as a male, believe yourself willing to go the full mile, but there's plenty of examples that your woman won't feel the same way... ultimately, with you paying through the nose for it.

The fact remains that the law remains on the side of the family, rightly so.

Except, the family places the mother/wife at the center of the family, which is why most cases favor women far more than men. There's an important distinction there. Saying that it's family orientated ignores the very real favoritism that exists.

Any man getting married needs to be aware of the contract and if he is planning on children he is looking at at least a 20-25 year sentence. The law may appear unfair, but no man can crib once he has taken the vows.

I am not picking sides here either, but men need to know the consequences of marriage.

It is a leap of faith and it is the responsibility of both partners to enable a successful marriage, this may not work, but men need to make firm decisions before they go there.

It's not just marriage. Men need to be away of social contracts. Living together for a number of years (cohabitation) can place you in similar constraints, and again, with the courts favoring women's needs/claims over that of men.

I'm a hopeless romantic, and I believe in marriage as an institution, but I won't ever get married under the current setup. It's not that there's no benefit for men... it's that there is so little impartial justice. Just as I'd be very careful of cohabitation or any 'serious'/long-term relationships.

All men should be speaking to a solicitor to be sure of what they're getting themselves into, and how to protect themselves... because left simply to the courts/law, you'll be screwed.

Mongfinder General

iptba wrote: »

Interesting. Though there is a reasonable chance she might push for a divorce before that.

True but then it's her who wants to end the marriage and not you. You will need to play the poor mouth. You have no money and nowhere to go.

Mongfinder General

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unless you're female. The law is definitely still skewed to protect women coming out of marriage, to provide for them, and the custody of children from that marriage.

The simple truth is that marriage is a major risk, with serious downsides for males. You might, as a male, believe yourself willing to go the full mile, but there's plenty of examples that your woman won't feel the same way... ultimately, with you paying through the nose for it.



Except, the family places the mother/wife at the center of the family, which is why most cases favor women far more than men. There's an important distinction there. Saying that it's family orientated ignores the very real favoritism that exists.



It's not just marriage. Men need to be away of social contracts. Living together for a number of years (cohabitation) can place you in similar constraints, and again, with the courts favoring women's needs/claims over that of men.

I'm a hopeless romantic, and I believe in marriage as an institution, but I won't ever get married under the current setup. It's not that there's no benefit for men... it's that there is so little impartial justice. Just as I'd be very careful of cohabitation or any 'serious'/long-term relationships.

All men should be speaking to a solicitor to be sure of what they're getting themselves into, and how to protect themselves... because left simply to the courts/law, you'll be screwed.

Interested in your thoughts on this. You've written that "It's not that there's no benefit for men". What benefits do you see?

iptba

Mongfinder General wrote: »

True but then it's her who wants to end the marriage and not you. You will need to play the poor mouth. You have no money and nowhere to go.

Not sure it matters much in terms of maintenance, child support, etc.?

Mongfinder General

iptba wrote: »

Not sure it matters much in terms of maintenance, child support, etc.?

If the husband plays the wounded victim it may help his case. The shock of his wife telling him that he is no longer wanted can have a negative impact on his mental health. Stress, anxiety etc should be assessed by a medical professional. Attending counselling should be next step. All of this buys the husband time to think and document. Depending on the employer it may be worth going out on stress related sick leave with a Doctor's note. The husband could cover this by taking regular annual leave. If a three day working week could be facilitated for a temporary period, this will help lower the husbands liability to a means test. If this coincides with a date in the family law court, all the better.

How much this matters is in the gift of the judge on the day. If you go in there swinging with a barrister in tow you will get slaughtered. That shows you have means. You need to able to manipulate the circumstances to your advantage while at a minimum trying to ensure your kids are not put at a disadvantage. Tricky.

Mongfinder General

Mongfinder General wrote: »

Interested in your thoughts on this. You've written that "It's not that there's no benefit for men". What benefits do you see?

Protection? The same benefits in marriage that are available for women should also be available for men. Benefits = equality. It's a shame to think that way, since it should be an obvious part of marriage, but in this age we live in, actual equality without imposed emotional constructs (in opposition to what feminists actually wanted, but never fought against, except when it didn't suit them)...

Marriage is still a contract between two consenting parties. If it was managed as a business contract, devoid of emotional entanglements, then we'd be seeing more equality being applied, and less focus on the need to protect women. Which is why we see so much movement to enforce the need for men to provide for women even after the marriage is ended... in spite of the fact that women can work, and earn the same as men.. (in cases, where a man is raising a child without the mother being present, there's little pressure on the mother to provide financial supports) Ultimately the reason that many women don't work during and after a marriage comes down to choice, not due to women being unable to make comparable incomes.

I'd like to see actual equality being brought into play. That would be a benefit of marriage. The assurance that your case for divorce because your wife cheated on you, had an abortion without your consent, got pregnant without your consent, etc would be judged not based on your gender, but the details of the case... because the simple fact is that divorce, and family settlements still favor women far more than they do men.

Wibbs

Mongfinder General wrote: »

If the husband plays the wounded victim it may help his case. The shock of his wife telling him that he is no longer wanted can have a negative impact on his mental health.

Interestingly US studies show that after divorce men's suicide rate goes three times higher than background, women's stays the same or lessens. Now that's the US where men are screwed in divorce and social safety nets are minimal to nonexistent, but I'd not be too shocked to see some sort of rise along those lines in this culture. Which also goes to show which sex is more mentally and emotionally hit by divorce and which has the better societal and social support in the aftermath. Well since in the majority of cases it's the woman that calls for divorce I suppose they've long checked out of the relationship and have come to terms with it, never mind in the case of kids being involved keep them and the living space. Plus the perceptions are different in each case. Woman leaves the marriage, generally it's seen as neutral or even a positive, man leaves the marriage it's much more seen as him abandoning his family.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

I think it's pretty standard advice for any man facing a divorce to take out a loan to upgrade the car, make regular cash withdrawals to be "frittered away in the pub/bookies" and generally use any means at their disposal to limit what the court sees as your "disposable" income in order to minimise the financial impact of a divorce. The sad reality for many is no matter what they do, they simply can't afford to leave a marriage: one decent income can be stretched to support a household, it can't cover two. And in most households where there's only one income, or only one substantial income, it's the man who'll be earning it. I'm fortunate in that we have a happy marriage but I'm under no illusions that were things to go wrong, I'd be destitute.

Women are encouraged to keep money for themselves in case they need to start again. Men are being selfish if they do the same.

Wibbs wrote: »

Interestingly US studies show that after divorce men's suicide rate goes three times higher than background, women's stays the same or lessens. Now that's the US where men are screwed in divorce and social safety nets are minimal to nonexistent, but I'd not be too shocked to see some sort of rise along those lines in this culture. Which also goes to show which sex is more mentally and emotionally hit by divorce and which has the better societal and social support in the aftermath. Well since in the majority of cases it's the woman that calls for divorce I suppose they've long checked out of the relationship and have come to terms with it, never mind in the case of kids being involved keep them and the living space. Plus the perceptions are different in each case. Woman leaves the marriage, generally it's seen as neutral or even a positive, man leaves the marriage it's much more seen as him abandoning his family.

Yup. It's one of those memes that exists even though the opposite is true. Women get over and move on from stuff way quicker than guys do. They can handle being alone better (because they usually have the opposite option easily available if they want it).
Even just in a non-romantic case recently for me, a bill was in my name (still is) and I had to get on to 2 (former?) friends to be reimbursed. Both had deleted my bank details because they wanted to "move on". I still have phone numbers and bank details of people dead years because I've never felt the need to bother deleting them from a dropdown menu that I barely notice it in. But they are ready to "draw a line" and move on asap.
The other thing I think both you and I have covered at length on this site, how often do women have another guy lined up before ending a relationship? Men do it and it's basically considered cheating. A woman does it, she has everything lined up to flip the switch one day and move on.

iptba

Wibbs wrote: »

Interestingly US studies show that after divorce men's suicide rate goes three times higher than background, women's stays the same or lessens. Now that's the US where men are screwed in divorce and social safety nets are minimal to nonexistent, but I'd not be too shocked to see some sort of rise along those lines in this culture. Which also goes to show which sex is more mentally and emotionally hit by divorce and which has the better societal and social support in the aftermath. Well since in the majority of cases it's the woman that calls for divorce I suppose they've long checked out of the relationship and have come to terms with it, never mind in the case of kids being involved keep them and the living space. Plus the perceptions are different in each case. Woman leaves the marriage, generally it's seen as neutral or even a positive, man leaves the marriage it's much more seen as him abandoning his family.

From a blog on some UK statistics. It would cover various relationships, not just divorces:

Conclusions:

- Non-resident (payee) parents registered with the CMS* in Great Britain are far more likely to die than people of the same sex and age range in the general population, even taking account of the fact that non-resident parents are almost all men who have a substantially higher death rate than women anyway.

- From the most recent (2020) FOI, paying parents (~95% fathers) are about 72% more likely to die than randomly selected men of the same age in the general population.

- From the most recent (2020) FOI, paying parents (~95% fathers) are about 142% more likely to die than receiving parents (95% mothers).

- Based on the CMS* data the number of excess deaths in Great Britain of non-resident parents (95% fathers), i.e., in excess of expectation based on the general population of men of the same age, has been estimated to be 2,400.

http://empathygap.uk/?p=3468
*Child Maintenance Service

The blogger speculates that a lot of these deaths could be suicides.

completedit

When love turned out to not be the romantic thing I was led to believe that was pretty much me done. I love getting to know girls; especially hot ones but come on, it just will end in tears so what's the point. Can't be bothered to pump and dump either. I wasn't set up for relationships ; the fact they eventually turn into an administrative arrangement just scares me. Just out of a year relationship and 31 now so can't see myself in another relationship. I only will go for a very certain type of girl with good looks and a good personality. If one comes around it would be great but won't be forcing it. I'm probably noticeably good looking on my day but am 5'8'' and introverted and my job sucks. My problem isn't with women, it's more relationships. We expect too much and eventually they become standard. What goes up must come down and nothing beats the initial stages when you hit your groove with someone you find hot. Sadly, there's only one way after that. I think the most successful relationships probably contain realists.