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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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  • #3302
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Greaney wrote: »
    Great News

    https://www.greenparty.ie/green-party-tds-announce-re-opening-of-limerick-waterford-rail-line/
    Why is it great news? Are you going to be using that line on a regular basis?


  • #3303
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    ezstreet5 wrote: »
    It's likely that the greenway economic benefits are indeed inflated.

    This may be so, however how many times have we had to listen to some folk claiming the railway will bring a jobs bonanza. It won't. Don't get me wrong it would be lovely to have both, greenway and railway but that is not going to happen. The evidence that a long distance greenway passing through a remote village or small community benefits a community is overwhelming. So many small communities have been left on the scrap heap or rural denudation; A train passing through the likes of Kiltimagh, Swinford etc what will that actually do for the local economy? Look at the tiny amounts of people getting on and off those trains stopping in small communities posted above; how do you monetize a few people sitting on a train trundling through East Galway, Mayo and Sligo. You cannot. This whole thing about the greenway is about reinvention of a state asset to create something going on in communities, to give hope to a generation who see things differently. It is not an obsession to stop the railway from happening, we know its not coming back, it is an hope to realise something that may not transform communities but will in some respects reinvent them. That is what is so frustrating about being held up at every twist and turn on this idea.


  • #3304
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    westtip wrote: »
    This may be so, however how many times have we had to listen to some folk claiming the railway will bring a jobs bonanza. It won't. Don't get me wrong it would be lovely to have both, greenway and railway but that is not going to happen. The evidence that a long distance greenway passing through a remote village or small community benefits a community is overwhelming. So many small communities have been left on the scrap heap or rural denudation; A train passing through the likes of Kiltimagh, Swinford etc what will that actually do for the local economy? Look at the tiny amounts of people getting on and off those trains stopping in small communities posted above; how do you monetize a few people sitting on a train trundling through East Galway, Mayo and Sligo. You cannot. This whole thing about the greenway is about reinvention of a state asset to create something going on in communities, to give hope to a generation who see things differently. It is not an obsession to stop the railway from happening, we know its not coming back, it is an hope to realise something that may not transform communities but will in some respects reinvent them. That is what is so frustrating about being held up at every twist and turn on this idea.

    Well said.


  • #3305
    ShaneC1600
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭ShaneC1600


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Overcrowded passenger trains from Claremorris and pilgrimage trains to Knock will need to drop down blackout blinds and speed-up going through certain area's because the scenery isn't up to scratch.

    True enough, should probably get procurement to add the blinds into the next train order for such an event maybe even add a few speed wobbles to throw them off a little!
    But in all honesty what will happen if this wonder of a greenway is competing with the Great Westen Greenway and takes the crowds to Tuam. Surely they should be planning for a 4 or 5 meter wide surface???


  • #3306
    Greaney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Greaney


    serfboard wrote: »
    Why is it great news? Are you going to be using that line on a regular basis?

    It's great news for folk who don't own cars.
    It's great news for traffic congestion in the cities & towns it links
    It's great news for the future of the continuation of the Western Rail Corridor
    It's great news for the disabled & elderly
    It's great news for Students
    It's great news for environmentally conscientious commuters to the city, who could ditch the car.
    westtip wrote: »
    This may be so, however how many times have we had to listen to some folk claiming the railway will bring a jobs bonanza.

    I have not once, come across anyone, pro-rail, on this thread who's said there'll be a jobs bonanza from rail... on the other hand, the Quiet Man Greenway campaign wax lyrical about the jobs and economic lift a greenway will bring :rolleyes:


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  • #3307
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    Greaney wrote: »
    It's great news for folk who don't own cars.
    It's great news for traffic congestion in the cities & towns it links
    It's great news for the future of the continuation of the Western Rail Corridor
    It's great news for the disabled & elderly
    It's great news for Students
    It's great news for environmentally conscientious commuters to the city, who could ditch the car.



    I have not once, come across anyone, pro-rail, on this thread who's said there'll be a jobs bonanza from rail... on the other hand, the Quiet Man Greenway campaign wax lyrical about the jobs and economic lift a greenway will bring :rolleyes:

    The Greenway campaigners even tried to dub the section of the railway between Athenry and Tuam as the “ATM” greenway. I think “IOU” would be more appropriate...


  • #3308
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    OK westtip, I believe your last post represents your own honest opinion, which I respect. But we may need to agree to disagree that "these truths are self-evident." My replies below are not an attempt to disect your own entitled views, but are rather intended to be conversational (since pints remain illegal).
    westtip wrote: »
    This may be so, however how many times have we had to listen to some folk claiming the railway will bring a jobs bonanza. It won't. Don't get me wrong it would be lovely to have both, greenway and railway but that is not going to happen.

    I don't believe either option will reach "bonanza" status. Both sides are likely exaggerating benefits, as evidenced by phantom businesses registering with CRO under variants of "Quiet Man Greenway." I find that odd.
    westtip wrote: »
    The evidence that a long distance greenway passing through a remote village or small community benefits a community is overwhelming.
    I agree that there will be a benefit. I would question whether the magnitude of the benefit "overwhelms." It may be modest or minimal.
    westtip wrote: »
    So many small communities have been left on the scrap heap or rural denudation; A train passing through the likes of Kiltimagh, Swinford etc what will that actually do for the local economy?
    I agree, and would also that denuding included revocation of rail service. Benefits to these communities are tertiary (but not unimportant). Primary benefits would be between the population centres of Sligo and Galway. Secondary benefits would be from commuter towns of Tubbercurry, Claremorris and Tuam. Teritary benefits would be to small intermediate stops.
    westtip wrote: »
    Look at the tiny amounts of people getting on and off those trains stopping in small communities posted above; how do you monetize a few people sitting on a train trundling through East Galway, Mayo and Sligo. You cannot.
    I wouldn't focus on that. It's an ancillary benefit.
    westtip wrote: »
    This whole thing about the greenway is about reinvention of a state asset to create something going on in communities, to give hope to a generation who see things differently. It is not an obsession to stop the railway from happening, we know its not coming back, it is an hope to realise something that may not transform communities but will in some respects reinvent them. That is what is so frustrating about being held up at every twist and turn on this idea.
    This is where I must question the transformative effect of a greenway compared to a railway. And I must question the "Sligo Greenway Feasibility Study," whose benefits are blanketly based on a 2016 "Tulley-Meehan Report," which assumes 40% of the benefits of the Great Western Greenway as espoused in a "2011 Fitzpatrick Associates Report," which in turn are based on a few surveys of greenway patrons. In anther context, this is what you have affectionately described as "a complete fudge." And these facts will be laid bare during the statutory process if a Charlestown-Colooney Greenway can advance to that stage, which is not reached via the current DTTAS grant.


  • #3309
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    River Suir wrote: »
    The Greenway campaigners even tried to dub the section of the railway between Athenry and Tuam as the “ATM” greenway. I think “IOU” would be more appropriate...

    I don't think it was a reference to the economic benefits but more to do with the convenient acronym of Athenry Tuam Milltown, I think the committee of what is now the QMG group decided that the QM association had more marketing appeal.

    Similar to the change of name of the Kiltimagh Group to the East Mayo Group it widens the appeal of the campaign out of just the KM parish.


  • #3310
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    ShaneC1600 wrote: »
    But in all honesty what will happen if this wonder of a greenway is competing with the Great Westen Greenway and takes the crowds to Tuam. Surely they should be planning for a 4 or 5 meter wide surface???

    It won't compete, it will contribute further to the success of the GWG. Long distance cycling holidays are increasing in popularity. Ireland is losing out on this market, a Failte Ireland report into the subject found that people really want long distance traffic free routes.

    The QMG connected to the Dublin -Galway GW and upwards into Mayo with a connector to the Turlough House-Castlebar at Charlestown and Castlebar-Westport GW (now in planning) would bring more cyclists to the GWG, the greenways don't compete with each other, they complement each other.

    https://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIreland/media/WebsiteStructure/Documents/In%20Your%20Sector/Cycling-Marklet-Research-2013.pdf


  • #3311
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/full-steam-ahead-as-enda-kenny-to-present-rte-show-39490207.html

    Somewhat relevant as it could amplify the discussions about the future of old railways.

    Brief: Later this year the former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader will front a television series on RTÉ 1 about old Irish railways from times past. Mr Kenny, a fluent Irish speaker, will present the series in Irish.


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  • #3312
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    intellectual dosser wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/full-steam-ahead-as-enda-kenny-to-present-rte-show-39490207.html

    Somewhat relevant as it could amplify the discussions about the future of old railways.

    Brief: Later this year the former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader will front a television series on RTÉ 1 about old Irish railways from times past. Mr Kenny, a fluent Irish speaker, will present the series in Irish.

    Saw that was coming up. if its on late could be good to help with sleep problems, listening to Enda could mean less prescriptions for sleeping tablets, he has one of those go to sleep voices!


  • #3313
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    intellectual dosser wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/full-steam-ahead-as-enda-kenny-to-present-rte-show-39490207.html

    Somewhat relevant as it could amplify the discussions about the future of old railways.

    Brief: Later this year the former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader will front a television series on RTÉ 1 about old Irish railways from times past. Mr Kenny, a fluent Irish speaker, will present the series in Irish.

    #andacyclist. looking forward to it either way.


  • #3314
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Greaney wrote: »
    It's great news for folk who don't own cars.
    It's great news for traffic congestion in the cities & towns it links
    It's great news for the future of the continuation of the Western Rail Corridor
    It's great news for the disabled & elderly
    It's great news for Students
    It's great news for environmentally conscientious commuters to the city, who could ditch the car.
    So in other words you're not going to be usign the line on a regular basis.

    It's great news that a line that I will not be using is re-opened.

    The WOT argument in a nutshell.


  • #3315
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    I'd say what Enda knows about railways would fit on a very small postage stamp. As for being in Irish - great - will there be subtitles for the majority of the population that won't be able to understand it?

    ****



  • #3316
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,273 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I'd say what Enda knows about railways would fit on a very small postage stamp. As for being in Irish - great - will there be subtitles for the majority of the population that won't be able to understand it?

    Of course there is; they aren't as elitist as the cyclist types :pac:


  • #3317
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Of course there is; they aren't as elitist as the cyclist types :pac:
    The thought of Enda wearing Lycra while presenting the show would be a great turn off, I'm glad he'll stick to talking about railways! :P


  • #3318
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Greaney wrote: »
    Great News

    https://www.greenparty.ie/green-party-tds-announce-re-opening-of-limerick-waterford-rail-line/

    Some other great news from Waterford

    https://twitter.com/SE_Greenway/status/1300838651228815362?s=20

    https://twitter.com/damiengeoghegan/status/1293879744057008129?s=20


  • #3319
    eastwest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Some other great news from Waterford

    https://twitter.com/SE_Greenway/status/1300838651228815362?s=20

    https://twitter.com/damiengeoghegan/status/1293879744057008129?s=20
    Do they not have a 'south-east on track' to delay it for ten years or so?
    Surely some clever councillor could build a nice career on promising a TGV?


  • #3320
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    eastwest wrote: »
    Do they not have a 'south-east on track' to delay it for ten years or so?
    Surely some clever councillor could build a nice career on promising a TGV?

    That sounds like a good idea. Will leave a voice message.


  • #3321
    ShaneC1600
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭ShaneC1600


    eastwest wrote: »
    Do they not have a 'south-east on track' to delay it for ten years or so?
    Surely some clever councillor could build a nice career on promising a TGV?

    Maybe they just had a better greenway campaign?


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  • #3322
    eastwest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    ShaneC1600 wrote: »
    Maybe they just had a better greenway campaign?

    They had an excellent greenaway campaign, but weren't up against the kind of entrenched nonsense that has blocked the western rail trail.
    Trains up the hill to knock airport, anyone?


  • #3323
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    eastwest wrote: »
    They had an excellent greenaway campaign, but weren't up against the kind of entrenched nonsense that has blocked the western rail trail.
    Trains up the hill to knock airport, anyone?

    I would be really interested to hear what you mean by “entrenched nonsense”? Also what do you mean by Knock Airport? I am sure I read somewhere that you were saying the railway supporters only wanted the original alignment only?


  • #3324
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,273 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    ShaneC1600 wrote: »
    Maybe they just had a better greenway campaign?

    Given the choice of a Suirside greenway (The Tourist Bucks) or a Swinfordside greenway (The Hardy Bucks), it's hard to think which one would succeed.


  • #3325
    ShaneC1600
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭ShaneC1600


    eastwest wrote: »
    They had an excellent greenaway campaign, but weren't up against the kind of entrenched nonsense that has blocked the western rail trail.
    Trains up the hill to knock airport, anyone?

    "Entrenched nonsense" proposing reinstating a former railway along an existing railway route? In fairness the more entrenched camp must be the greenway one where they could have identified other routes if the idea was as beneficial as they claim.


  • #3326
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    ShaneC1600 wrote: »
    "Entrenched nonsense" proposing reinstating a former railway along an existing railway route? In fairness the more entrenched camp must be the greenway one where they could have identified other routes if the idea was as beneficial as they claim.

    Why would the QMG campaign feel the need to identify alternative routes? They have clearly identified the best and most feasible route possible. This is about to be proved in writing to Galway CC shortly. Galway CC can then decide whether to pursue it or not. Looking at the voting record there to date- they probaly will. It's clearly the diminishing railway campaign that has failed in convining Irish Rail & DTT that the bendy alignment to Claremorris is desirable, despite multiple reports and studies over the decades and that was long before the more locally, and now nationally, supported proposal of a greenway was even put on the table.


  • #3327
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Why would the QMG campaign feel the need to identify alternative routes? They have clearly identified the best and most feasible route possible. This is about to be proved in writing to Galway CC shortly. Galway CC can then decide whether to pursue it or not. Looking at the voting record there to date- they probaly will. It's clearly the diminishing railway campaign that has failed in convining Irish Rail & DTT that the bendy alignment to Claremorris is desirable, despite multiple reports and studies over the decades and that was long before the more locally, and now nationally, supported proposal of a greenway was even put on the table.

    There’s a bendy alignment to Claremorris from Athenry?


  • #3328
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    River Suir wrote: »
    There’s a bendy alignment to Claremorris from Athenry?

    Life isn't lived on a map.


  • #3329
    ShaneC1600
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭ShaneC1600


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Why would the QMG campaign feel the need to identify alternative routes? They have clearly identified the best and most feasible route possible. This is about to be proved in writing to Galway CC shortly. Galway CC can then decide whether to pursue it or not. Looking at the voting record there to date- they probaly will. It's clearly the diminishing railway campaign that has failed in convining Irish Rail & DTT that the bendy alignment to Claremorris is desirable, despite multiple reports and studies over the decades and that was long before the more locally, and now nationally, supported proposal of a greenway was even put on the table.

    They have identified nothing and no thought or purpose has gone into identifying reasons to have a greenway go through the towns and villages that the actual railway passes through. They have clearly not identified any reason other than there is a disused railway there, that in itself is not a reason to build a greenway.


  • #3330
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    ShaneC1600 wrote: »
    They have identified nothing and no thought or purpose has gone into identifying reasons to have a greenway go through the towns and villages that the actual railway passes through. They have clearly not identified any reason other than there is a disused railway there, that in itself is not a reason to build a greenway.

    It's the same reason that the Great Western, Waterford and Old Rail Trail greenways were proposed and completed with great success and yes,
    the presence of a disused railway is a good enough reason to consider it for other uses


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  • #3331
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    It's the same reason that the Great Western, Waterford and Old Rail Trail greenways were proposed and completed with great success and yes,
    the presence of a disused railway is a good enough reason to consider it for other uses

    ...if there isn't already an active campaign to have it reinstated as a railway....


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