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Post primary return to schools roadmap

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    #932
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Yes they can. Almost 10.9% of students failed OL Maths last year. That's pretty run of the mill for OL Maths. They're not just going to pass everyone this year. The repercussions are very real for the student that fails maths, but it happens every year.

    Why would management raise eyebrows at giving lower than 30%. If you have a student that is not able to get 30% then they don't deserve 30%. If they got higher than deserved that's grade inflation.

    If every school in the country did that and didn't fail anyone in Maths then there will have to be downgrades. Same for every other subject.

    Absolutely, I failed a student in maths.i hadn't a piece of paper over two years that indicated they might even pass on their best day. I would have been lying had I said otherwise and it would be a disservice to the kids I know killed themselves to get their 45 or 52%


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    #933
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Fails in the system though usually come from someone making a hames of it, or cracking under pressure, or being ill or whatever. Very very rarely from failing all year and doing the test anyway. It can happen but I've never seen it bar once. That's why fails will be underrepresented and should be allowed to be underrepresented. You can't calculate someone will crack.

    A student ignoring advice to drop to ordinary level could result in a fail if they insisted on being graded at higher level


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    #934
    emilymemily
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭emilymemily


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Absolutely, I failed a student in maths.i hadn't a piece of paper over two years that indicated they might even pass on their best day. I would have been lying had I said otherwise and it would be a disservice to the kids I know killed themselves to get their 45 or 52%

    It's just unfair that had the students known not doing their work in school, not handing up their homework and not studying for tests was going to mean they fail their leaving cert, they might have tried a bit harder during the school term. Obviously not your fault but hard luck on the students all the same.
    That said, they had the option to sit exams so why have teachers give them grades for work they know they didn't complete?

    I genuinely think that some kids just don't care, they don't care about school, the leaving cert, none of it and then teachers get the blame for their bad results.


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    #935
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Fails in the system though usually come from someone making a hames of it, or cracking under pressure, or being ill or whatever. Very very rarely from failing all year and doing the test anyway. It can happen but I've never seen it bar once. That's why fails will be underrepresented and should be allowed to be underrepresented. You can't calculate someone will crack.

    Students fail every year because they are deluded and think they will pass the HL paper when they are not able for it. I have had fails in my subject and I have pleaded with these students to take the OL paper. I have been as blunt as I can, I have spoken to their parents.... they still insist on taking the HL paper and then come out with H8. And it is of zero surprise to me.

    Students also fail for much the same reasons above, but they are OL ability and as there are points for H7, they think that it's easy to get 30% at HL so they decide to take the HL paper, and are under the impression that somehow the SEC won't fail them because it will look bad, and then they fail.


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    #936
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    emilymemily wrote: »
    It's just unfair that had the students known not doing their work in school, not handing up their homework and not studying for tests was going to mean they fail their leaving cert, they might have tried a bit harder during the school term. Obviously not your fault but hard luck on the students all the same.

    Why is it hard luck on the student?Why is it unfair? If they didn't do any work for two years, why would failing a subject come as a surprise?:confused::confused::confused:


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    #937
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    So if they don't use their original algorithm to adjust... What are they going to use?comparison to the jc results? I just can't see them doing anything else other than school profiling which is what the blatantly admitted to earlier on. Is gender still on the cards?

    Probably a bit of everything. Taking the maths stats as an example, let's say for arguments sake that only 1% of students were given a fail grade by teachers in comparison with the typical 11% that failed last year. The most obvious thing would then be to drop all the students that have been awarded 40% by teachers and see what percentage are now on a fail.

    I would imagine that there are a fair cohort of students on a 40/41 in OL subjects, particularly maths, given by teachers who refused to fail a student and decided they would let the DES do the job instead.

    If that doesn't bring enough students down, then you move down the ones on 42, 43 etc, until you get to ~10% failure rate. My gut feeling is that you probably wouldn't need to go as far as 43, that there will probably be a glut of grades on the 40/41 mark - and the same on 30/31 in HL subjects.

    Once you have your regular failure rate (and all the other grades have been shifted to match the typical curve) for the subject. Then you can start the profiling aspect of it and see how it matches up for schools and/or gender, JC results.


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    #938
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Why is it hard luck on the student?Why is it unfair? If they didn't do any work for two years, why would failing a subject come as a surprise?:confused::confused::confused:

    In my experience plenty of these students don't fail and they don't expect to fail because they will do enough in the last couple of months. It's a high number of students who fall into this category in some schools. More than the number who are deluded as to their chances of passing ime. So I can understand this point of view. But I also agree that there's not really anything that could have been done to address this, as the teacher could not be expected to pass someone who showed little to no evidence of ability or learning.


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    #939
    emilymemily
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭emilymemily


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Why is it hard luck on the student?Why is it unfair? If they didn't do any work for two years, why would failing a subject come as a surprise?:confused::confused::confused:

    I agree with you but ive been surprised by how well a student can do on their exams despite not working in school for two years. Also, if theyd known they were going to be graded through continuous assessment they may have tried.
    The current school system isn't set up to allow for continuous assessment so for that reason, it is unfair.
    For example, lots of students who drop out of secondary school and attend Youthreach, where students are graded on continuous assessment, they tend to do quite well.


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    #940
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Probably a bit of everything. Taking the maths stats as an example, let's say for arguments sake that only 1% of students were given a fail grade by teachers in comparison with the typical 11% that failed last year. The most obvious thing would then be to drop all the students that have been awarded 40% by teachers and see what percentage are now on a fail.

    I would imagine that there are a fair cohort of students on a 40/41 in OL subjects, particularly maths, given by teachers who refused to fail a student and decided they would let the DES do the job instead.

    If that doesn't bring enough students down, then you move down the ones on 42, 43 etc, until you get to ~10% failure rate. My gut feeling is that you probably wouldn't need to go as far as 43, that there will probably be a glut of grades on the 40/41 mark - and the same on 30/31 in HL subjects.

    Once you have your regular failure rate (and all the other grades have been shifted to match the typical curve) for the subject. Then you can start the profiling aspect of it and see how it matches up for schools and/or gender, JC results.

    Yeah can understand that, but does anything so arbitrary stand up to an appeal? None of it makes sense to be fair. Oh DES, you so funny you. I really think that students union calling for predicted grades needs to be tackled on their role in this, and follow the money to see who was advising them in being manipulated to whip up a frenzy.


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    #941
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Yeah can understand that, but does anything so arbitrary stand up to an appeal? None of it makes sense to be fair. Oh DES, you so funny you. I really think that students union calling for predicted grades needs to be tackled on their role in this, and follow the money to see who was advising them in being manipulated to whip up a frenzy.

    Well I don’t think so. If the lowest 10% would have under normal circumstances then the lowest 10a% of students ranked by their teachers are most likely to be that cohort. The major problem lies with students that a teacher genuinely believed would have passed and given a mark in the low 40s being in the cohort with students who never had a hope of passing being in the same bunch. That’s where school profiling should point out some anomalies.

    That one is probably far harder to call than the H1s. Even in a school of 60 LCs where say 20 do HL, 5 do FL and the remaining 35 do OL maths in keeping with the stats for maths there’s 3 potentially on a fail. If everyone was passed by the teachers there when there are fails there every year something will have to change.


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    #942
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    So when is everyone back? And is the building ready?

    We’re Monday. First group in within tutor groups on Monday for meeting. Building is currently nowhere near ready but there is a lot being done


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    #943
    Rosita
    Registered Users Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭Rosita


    emilymemily wrote: »

    It's just unfair that had the students known not doing their work in school, not handing up their homework and not studying for tests was going to mean they fail their leaving cert, they might have tried a bit harder during the school term.

    It's not unfair. Teachers are always joining the dots for students between consistent effort and positive outcomes. It's not like we're withholding this information and students are ambushed by it later. It's a teacher mantra to the point of cliché.


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    #944
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Yeah can understand that, but does anything so arbitrary stand up to an appeal? None of it makes sense to be fair. Oh DES, you so funny you. I really think that students union calling for predicted grades needs to be tackled on their role in this, and follow the money to see who was advising them in being manipulated to whip up a frenzy.

    I agree on the students union but the DES and the government advisors etc have a lot to answer for when they cancelled the LC on the back of this campaign.


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    #945
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    So when is everyone back? And is the building ready?

    We’re Monday. First group in within tutor groups on Monday for meeting. Building is currently nowhere near ready but there is a lot being done

    We haven’t been provided with a timetable yet. We don’t know if any PPE has arrived for us. Our school is a building site at the moment so some rooms and entrances are now out of bounds. Our principal has signed up the school for some RTÉ programme on the reopening of schools during the pandemic.


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    #946
    Alex86Eire
    Registered Users Posts: 330 ✭✭Alex86Eire


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    So when is everyone back? And is the building ready?

    We’re Monday. First group in within tutor groups on Monday for meeting. Building is currently nowhere near ready but there is a lot being done

    We're back on Thursday for staff meetings. First groups are in on Friday for induction. The building seems to be fairly ready - deep clean done, screens up, hall turned into classrooms, signs and hand sanitisers in place.


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    #947
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,819 ✭✭✭amacca


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    We haven’t been provided with a timetable yet. We don’t know if any PPE has arrived for us. Our school is a building site at the moment so some rooms and entrances are now out of bounds. Our principal has signed up the school for some RTÉ programme on the reopening of schools during the pandemic.

    How do you feel about that out of curiosity.

    If it was me I'd be like FFS its not as if school doesnt have enough to do without the extra of guiding the national TV stations people around the school etc.


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    #948
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    amacca wrote: »
    How do you feel about that out of curiosity.

    If it was me I'd be like FFS its not as if school doesnt have enough to do without the extra of guiding the national TV stations people around the school etc.

    Yes that’s exactly how I feel.


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    #949
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭Icsics


    I think that Principal in Carlow might regret inviting in RTE to film her assembly, 150 in the hall for prayers!


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    #950
    emilymemily
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭emilymemily


    Rosita wrote: »
    It's not unfair. Teachers are always joining the dots for students between consistent effort and positive outcomes. It's not like we're withholding this information and students are ambushed by it later. It's a teacher mantra to the point of cliché.

    Im not blaming teachers..


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    #951
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    Icsics wrote: »
    I think that Principal in Carlow might regret inviting in RTE to film her assembly, 150 in the hall for prayers!

    Close to 180 when you include staff and meitheal students. For 2 hours. Think of the anger over 81 in a hotel in Clifden, yet 180 in a room seems to be fine. We are taking an almighty chance and nonsense like that from Leos in Carlow really doesn't help


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    #952
    F5500
    Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭F5500


    We're back tomorrow, Wednesday. Students not back until Monday so at least we've a few days to suss out the changes.

    Hard to envisage what's facing us, but it'll be a year like no other.


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    #953
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Icsics wrote: »
    I think that Principal in Carlow might regret inviting in RTE to film her assembly, 150 in the hall for prayers!

    When did that happen?


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    #954
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    When did that happen?

    This morning.


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    #955
    Random sample
    Registered Users Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Random sample


    Back Thursday. Kids a yeargroup at a time after that.

    If we can get through the staff meetings it will be fine. The negativity would suck the life out of you. We are where we are and will have to trust management to make the best decisions for us, so help us god.

    No assemblies in our school this year at least .


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    #956
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    The desperation for positive PR from some principals is nauseating.


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    #957
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The desperation for positive self PR from some principals is nauseating.

    FYP.


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    #958
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    FYP.

    The managerial body for the school have been tweeting their praise for the organisation of the event etc. I really don’t see what everyone else is worried about. Can do attitude goes a long way; even as far as stopping a virus. We all need to follow this lead...


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    #959
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    scrubs33 wrote: »
    The managerial body for the school have been tweeting their praise for the organisation of the event etc. I really don’t see what everyone else is worried about. Can do attitude goes a long way; even as far as stopping a virus. We all need to follow this lead...

    Well they're hardly going to say their own work is a shitshow are they?

    We've been discussing here for weeks how kids are going to fit into classrooms safely, what precautions have been put in place etc, public gatherings are essentially a no-no at the moment, but they can have a gathering of 150+ people?

    How do they go about justifying that when we've been told not to have all staff together in the one place for staff meetings?

    It's not about a can do attitude, there are guidelines there and they are being followed or they're not.


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    #960
    lulublue22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭lulublue22


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Well they're hardly going to say their own work is a shitshow are they?

    We've been discussing here for weeks how kids are going to fit into classrooms safely, what precautions have been put in place etc, public gatherings are essentially a no-no at the moment, but they can have a gathering of 150+ people?

    How do they go about justifying that when we've been told not to have all staff together in the one place for staff meetings?

    It's not about a can do attitude, there are guidelines there and they are being followed or they're not.

    What I think is very interesting is that the principal is adamant that the assembly was in compliance with the guidelines citing using the hall for 3 classes and that the dep issued a very wishy washy statement re SD and possibility of assemblies on line. Wonder will it gain traction over the next few days.


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    #961
    doc_17
    Registered Users Posts: 6,876 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The desperation for positive PR from some principals is nauseating.

    This by 100.

    Think of the pressure that must have been brought to bear on the staff. We aren’t open for students until Monday and the place is still mad.

    In other news, looks like all staff meetings will have to be virtual from Thursday if there are more than 6.....


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