Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:26PM

nannerbenahs wrote: »

And where did you learn that phrase about malicious Russian disinformation?
Do you really think Russia gives a damn about boards.ie
Being an Irishman, albeit living in Spain, I actually do care that our country and culture is being strangled by misinfornation.
Why don´t you mention my point about Dr Benito in Madrid.
He is the kind of guy that people will really listen to, a real doctor with the courage to speak out. My point is that it was pure luck that he got to speak even for a couple of minutes on Spanish national TV ..an accident, and there´s not a chance that RTE or Newstalk would let any expert be heard who was not willing to go along with all the official narrative of lockdowns masks, social distancing etc.
Why is all media working in LOCKSTEP? Answer that!

At least that explains your funky " Spacing ".

I agree with you about an overbearing media but most of what you are saying is completely wrong. If you are in spain, you should have more sense, although I see there are also anti mask fools there too.

MadYaker · 23-08-2020 05:29PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Its not 1% or anywhere near it for under 65's though, in fact for the 1 million kids returning to school this week there is practically no risk for them

Yes, but averaged over an entire population that includes old people and children its around 1%. There is low risk for the kids who don't have underlying conditions, but what about the people those kids live with? The schools have to open somehow but I can't see how it's going to work and I have zero faith in this government to figure it out. NPHET won't tell them what to do there.

Lundstram · 23-08-2020 05:31PM

Very telling that they don't release the age demographics of deaths anymore. You have to actually dig to find it. They've no problem announcing the number of under 45s who've caught the disease, though. Very vocal about that.

Take out Dublin and today's total cases outside the pale come to 22.

Retail sector is slowly dying a death, tourism is non-existent, hospitality industry ruined months ago. At least the government were kind enough to announce grants for some of these industries from tax-payers pockets.

walus · 23-08-2020 05:37PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Schools are necessary for the country to function and for the welfare of children. Pubs as much I love pints, are not. At least not in the short term. It's about balancing necessity against risk.

I'm not sure how you'd go about isolating vulnerable people when it comes down to it. Will people have to submit their medical history to the state and then anyone considered "at risk" will have to restrict their movements, stay at home or face penalties? That sounds like a police state to me. Many people who are over 70 or have underlying conditions are perfectly healthy, live full lives, work full time etc. What about people who have underlying conditions they aren't aware of? I don't personally see that as being more workable than the current approach. No country has even attempted that as far as I can find out. Not to mention the fact that the virus would then freely spread through the rest of the population and as we've seen some healthy people can get sick and die also (1%?) and others have a long lasting illness. I wasn't just old people dying in those tents outside hospitals in Milan unfortunately.

If you think that selective lockdown/isolation is impossible to implement then blanket approach is going to work. Unless we are considering authoritarian states.
Right now it is very difficult to guess what that is that the government are trying to achieve. At the beginning it was dampening the way Covid was to hit hospitals. What is it today?
I would have thought that at this stage there is a very few people out there who think that locking down a country is of any benefit.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:39PM

Lundstram wrote: »

Retail sector is slowly dying a death, tourism is non-existent, hospitality industry ruined months ago. At least the government were kind enough to announce grants for some of these industries from tax-payers pockets.

Do you honestly think reopening will fix that?

Most people will opt out for as long as it takes.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:41PM

walus wrote: »

If you think that selective lockdown/isolation is impossible to implement then blanket approach is going to work. Unless we are considering authoritarian states.
Right now it is very difficult to guess what that is that the government are trying to achieve. At the beginning it was dampening the way Covid was to hit hospitals. What is it today?
I would have thought that at this stage there is a very few people out there who think that locking down a country is of any benefit.

Only answer is a strict, hard lockdown, short duration with a focus on eradication. Do the hard thing and get it done, limit inward travel in a logical way and then live our lives properly.

Not this eternal pissing into the wind.

Lundstram · 23-08-2020 05:42PM

i_surge wrote: »

Do you honestly think reopening will fix that?

Most people will opt out for as long as it takes.

Well, yes. Pub closed means no money, pub open means money. What are you struggling with here?

Have you a link for that bolded part or are you just throwing in random thoughts from your head and stating it like it's a fact?

nannerbenahs · 23-08-2020 05:43PM

Latin America is at a different stage of the curve so cases and new deaths are typically rising , this week by +13% (official), just like us back in April
but this week Europe has also experienced a NEW DEATH REDUCTION RATE of -127%....
So why continue with extreme and destructive lockdowns when we have now effectively reached herd immunity... ?

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:45PM

Lundstram wrote: »

Well, yes. Pub closed means no money, pub open means money. What are you struggling with here?

Have you a link for that bolded part or are you just throwing in random thoughts from your head and stating it like it's a fact?

I don't need links to tell me what to think when I have principles.

What you have said is the purest form of first order flawed thinking.

Here is a link for you

https://fs.blog/2016/04/second-order-thinking/

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:46PM

nannerbenahs wrote: »

Latin America is at a different stage of the curve so cases and new deaths are typically rising , this week by +13% (official), just like us back in April
but this week Europe has also experienced a NEW DEATH REDUCTION RATE of -127%....
So why continue with extreme and destructive lockdowns when we have now effectively reached herd immunity... ?

We haven't reached herd immunity in the slightest.

FintanMcluskey · 23-08-2020 05:46PM

i_surge wrote: »

Only answer is a strict, hard lockdown, short duration with a focus on eradication. Do the hard thing and get it done, limit inward travel in a logical way and then live our lives properly.

Not this eternal pissing into the wind.

I know you think the only links Ireland has with the world is drunks on holiday but I can assure that's not the case.

Irelands GDP is produced almost entirely by FDI companies.

If this never ending lockdown you propose comes to pass I hope they give the educated citizen's a chance to leave Ireland for good before its implemented.

walus · 23-08-2020 05:47PM

i_surge wrote: »

Only answer is a strict, hard lockdown, short duration with a focus on eradication. Do the hard thing and get it done, limit inward travel in a logical way and then live our lives properly.

Not this eternal pissing into the wind.

But can any country really implement and execute on such strategy i.e hard lockdown? I know China did and possibly New Zealand. They still get new cases though. Eradicating the virus is not possible as it is unfeasible to maintain the required conditions long enough.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:49PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I know you think the only links Ireland has with the world is drunks on holiday but I can assure that's not the case.

Irelands GDP is produced almost entirely by FDI companies.

If this never ending lockdown you propose comes to pass I hope they give the educated citizen's a chance to leave Ireland for good before its implemented.

I have never once mentioned a never ending lockdown, that is stupid and I don't want it. I want a strategic one, huge difference.

You are trying to twist reality with your FDI angle, as if no money will ever enter these shores again.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:50PM

walus wrote: »

But can any country really implement and execute on such strategy i.e hard lockdown? I know China did and possibly New Zealand. They still get new cases though. Eradicating the virus is not possible as it is unfeasible to maintain the required conditions long enough.

Is it not a great position of relative strength to be in? Economically and quality of life.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:50PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

I know you think the only links Ireland has with the world is drunks on holiday but I can assure that's not the case.

Irelands GDP is produced almost entirely by FDI companies.

If this never ending lockdown you propose comes to pass I hope they give the educated citizen's a chance to leave Ireland for good before its implemented.

Brazil is the place for you my good man.

_Kaiser_ · 23-08-2020 05:51PM

MadYaker wrote: »

"I read something that lined up my with my personal views and so I believed it without question"

Larger numbers of cases can only lead to larger numbers of deaths, though still small it seems to be around 1% or so. Id be in favour of some measures of control. 1% of Ireland is 45,000 people. Easy to dismiss until it's someone you know getting sick or dying.

Where did I say I believed it without question? I commented that it would appear to be reflective of the current/ongoing situation. Happy for you to prove otherwise.

Maybe if you and others stopped with the hysteria and playing the man rather than the ball, it might be worth having an actual discussion on the point. This isn't twitter.. Take your confrontational "us vs them" stuff there.

What are you so invested in and fearful of that you refuse to accept that the deaths and serious cases in this country are actually very low for a pandemic 6 months later. This despite the country being largely open for the last 2 months now. Are you that swayed by the media coverage that you can't see what's around you?

Zero new deaths today by the way.

FintanMcluskey · 23-08-2020 05:53PM

i_surge wrote: »

Only answer is a strict, hard lockdown, short duration with a focus on eradication. Do the hard thing and get it done, limit inward travel in a logical way and then live our lives properly.

Not this eternal pissing into the wind.

i_surge wrote: »

I have never once mentioned a never ending lockdown, that is stupid and I don't want it. I want a strategic one, huge difference.

You are trying to twist reality with your FDI angle, as if no money will ever enter these shores again.

You want to eradicate Covid in 2 weeks?

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:53PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Where did I say I believed it without question? I commented that it would appear to be reflective of the current/ongoing situation. Happy for you to prove otherwise.

Maybe if you and others stopped with the hysteria and playing the man rather than the ball, it might be worth having an actual discussion on the point. This isn't twitter.. Take your confrontational "us vs them" stuff there.

What are you so invested in and fearful of that you refuse to accept that the deaths and serious cases in this country are actually very low for a pandemic 6 months later. This despite the county being largely open for the last 2 months now. Are you that swayed by the media coverage that you can't see what's around you?

Zero new deaths today by the way.

Hoping to play the ball here. Very open minded to studies on virus weakening. It is a big question, I don't have a clear sense of.

nannerbenahs · 23-08-2020 05:54PM

What are they trying to achieve?
A NEW ABNORMAL.
The filtering of even more wealth from the ordinary people to our overlords, big finance, big global corporations, the ´´have yachts as opposed to the ´´have nots¨.
They need more time to fully crush middle class life, medium and small business. The virus has lost momentum..Not enough people are dying, so they are pushing the propaganda harder and harder to increase fear and uncertainty.
Mask wearing, isolation, lack of social interaction. These are the tools to enforce greater obedience and helplessness.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:54PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

You want to eradicate Covid in 2 weeks?

Probably a bit longer. 2 or 3 incubation periods. 4 to be safe. Depends on the porosity of the lockdown.

If it can't be done right there is no point in trying my approach.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 05:57PM

nannerbenahs wrote: »

What are they trying to achieve?
A NEW ABNORMAL.
The filtering of even more wealth from the ordinary people to our overlords, big finance, big global corporations, the ´´have yachts as opposed to the ´´have nots¨.
They need more time to fully crush middle class life, medium and small business. The virus has lost momentum..Not enough people are dying, so they are pushing the propaganda harder and harder to increase fear and uncertainty.
Mask wearing, isolation, lack of social interaction. These are the tools to enforce greater obedience and helplessness.

You mentioned the media, and these are the typical hysterical talking points of the counter media.

"Overlords"

walus · 23-08-2020 05:58PM

i_surge wrote: »

Is it not a great position of relative strength to be in? Economically and quality of life.

Only when a country can afford it. There is a handful of countries who can. Ireland, sadly, is not one of them.

Penfailed · 23-08-2020 06:00PM

nannerbenahs wrote: »

Droplets are not primary carriers of the virus, but aerosols which cannot be stopped by masks.

Wrong.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 06:03PM

walus wrote: »

Only when a country can afford it. There is a handful of countries who can. Ireland, sadly, is not one of them.

We are a very wealthy country and to be honest we can't afford not to do it.

Otherwise it is a slow painful transition into a depression.

How does anyone honestly think the end game looks like?

walus · 23-08-2020 06:07PM

i_surge wrote: »

We are a very wealthy country and to be honest we can't afford not to do it.

Otherwise it is a slow painful transition into a depression.

How does anyone honestly think the end game looks like?

You are wrong there. Ireland is not a wealthy country that can stop its economy for a quarter or more. On top of that it’s GDP relies on a very few sectors one being tourism which is being hit very hard. What we have seen as financial repercussions applied to citizens after the 2008 recession is nothing in comparison with what’s around the corner now.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 06:09PM

walus wrote: »

You are wrong there. Ireland is not a wealthy country. On top of that it’s GDP relies on a very few sectors one being tourism which is being hit very hard. What we have seen as financial repercussions applied to citizens after the 2008 recession are nothing in comparison with what’s around the corner now.

Relatively, we are a wealthy nation. High standard of living.

All your concerns are economic and you are a turkey voting for christmas.

The longer we piss around "living with" the virus the more we **** the economy. It is a very simple thing.

Nobody has given me a credible way that doesn't just bleed us dry slowly.

walus · 23-08-2020 06:17PM

i_surge wrote: »

Relatively, we are a wealthy nation. High standard of living.

All your concerns are economic and you are a turkey voting for christmas.

The longer we piss around "living with" the virus the more we **** the economy. It is a very simple thing.

Nobody has given me a credible way that doesn't just bleed us dry slowly.

The economy has shrank 8.5% this past few months. How long it will take for it to recover, do you think? The country is borrowing money to cover for this gap in GDP and to stimulate further growth. Wealthy countries do not need to do that. The longer we think that this is a short term problem the worse the economic outcome is going to be.

And no my concerns are not only economic. My parter has just gone through a chemo and radiotherapy shortly before Covid arrived. My concerns are with people whose loved ones have just lost a chance to be diagnosed early and, sadly, some of them will pay with their lives for ultra conservative approach of this government to the pandemic. My concerns are social in broad sense.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 06:18PM

walus wrote: »

The economy has shrank 8.5% this past few months. How long it will take for it to recover, do you think? The country is borrowing money to cover for this gap in GDP and to stimulate further growth. Wealthy countries do not need to do that. The longer we think that this is a short term problem the worse the economic outcome is going to be.

There are only a few countries such as Norway that don't operate a deficit

i_surge · 23-08-2020 06:20PM

walus wrote: »

The economy has shrank 8.5% this past few months. How long it will take for it to recover, do you think? The country is borrowing money to cover for this gap in GDP and to stimulate further growth. Wealthy countries do not need to do that. The longer we think that this is a short term problem the worse the economic outcome is going to be.

But I agree, it is not a short term problem

-8.5% in 0-16 months
- X% in 6-12 months
.....
.....
.....
.....
.....

2 to 5 years more on that timeline.

That is why we need to take hard action and grow a pair.

i_surge · 23-08-2020 06:22PM

walus wrote: »

The economy has shrank 8.5% this past few months. How long it will take for it to recover, do you think? The country is borrowing money to cover for this gap in GDP and to stimulate further growth. Wealthy countries do not need to do that. The longer we think that this is a short term problem the worse the economic outcome is going to be.

And no my concerns are not only economic. My parter has just gone through a chemo and radiotherapy shortly before Covid arrived. My concerns are with people whose loved ones have just lost a chance to be diagnosed early and, sadly, some of them will pay with their lives for ultra conservative approach of this government to this problem. My concerns are social in broad sense.

I agree with you there, cancer screening etc. should be going full tilt, in separate facilities as needed.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - Read OP for Mod Warnings