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the semantics of the British Isles

2

Comments

  • #32
    stinkbomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭stinkbomb


    We're already past it. Neither the British or Irish governments used the contested term "British Isles" and newer textbooks don't use it either.
    Western European Isles, Britain and Ireland, Ireland and the United Kingdom, Islands of the North Atlantic....all used. British Isles is not recognised by the state of Ireland and DFA etc are not to use it.


  • #33
    stinkbomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭stinkbomb


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    It's not a political term

    It is. Obviously! And has been for a long time. De Valera corrected a British politician nearly a century ago...


  • #34
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,396 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    partyguinness wrote: »
    You have it one. Do you think there would be any problem with 'Spanish Peninsula or 'Swedish Scandinavia'?

    Personally I take exception to anyone refering to my country being part of the "Britsh Isles". I do not use the term and I do not recognise it.

    And that's entirely your right to do so. Personally I don't use it myself because I don't find I ever have any need to refer to the entire geographical area, rather than me taking exception to it, but equally I don't get annoyed by it either. There are far more important things to be worried about imo.


  • #35
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    A lot of Irish secretly love the term, and wish they could be back fully under Westminster rule!

    I love it because it winds up armchair Republicans!

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #36
    partyguinness
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,202 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Feisar wrote: »
    I love it because it winds up armchair Republicans!


    As we live in a republic and adhere to constitutional republican norms then we are all republicans.


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  • #37
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭Feisar


    partyguinness wrote: »
    As we live in a republic and adhere to constitutional republican norms then we are all republicans.

    Correct and right however that's not the sort I meant.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #38
    partyguinness
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,202 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Feisar wrote: »
    Correct and right however that's not the sort I meant.


    So defining the state and objecting to the use of the term "British Isles" makes one a rabid Wolf Tone singing Republican? That's a bit of leap. Armchair republicans are not the only people that might get irriated by the use of the phrase.

    Anyway, I thought we had taken back the use of the term republican and it is not a dirty word.

    Patriotism and nationalism (in the mild sense) does not equate to some Wolf Tone singing armchair Republican of the sort you have in mind.


  • #39
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭Feisar


    partyguinness wrote: »
    So defining the state and objecting to the use of the term "British Isles" makes one a rabid Wolf Tone singing Republican? That's a bit of leap. Armchair republicans are not the only people that might get irriated by the use of the phrase.

    Anyway, I thought we had taken back the use of the term republican and it is not a dirty word.

    Patriotism and nationalism (in the mild sense) does not equate to some Wolf Tone singing armchair Republican of the sort you have in mind.

    I'd say myself and yerself would be similar enough. Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of patriotism and nationalism, although the still seem to be dirty words in the Irish context. Denying The Holocaust is a no no however mention the genocide in this country and it's roll eyes time.
    I suppose personally I see it as geographical and find it petty to take issue with the term British because of links to Great Britain a political entity.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #40
    fixXxer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,453 ✭✭✭fixXxer


    Feisar wrote: »
    I'd say myself and yerself would be similar enough. Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of patriotism and nationalism, although the still seem to be dirty words in the Irish context. Denying The Holocaust is a no no however mention the genocide in this country and it's roll eyes time.
    I suppose personally I see it as geographical and find it petty to take issue with the term British because of links to Great Britain a political entity.

    How is it petty to object to ones national identity being erased for the sake of using an out of date phrase. Its at best intellectually lazy and at worst looking back with nostalgia at colonialism.


  • #41
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    fixXxer wrote: »
    How is it petty to object to ones national identity being erased for the sake of using an out of date phrase. Its at best intellectually lazy and at worst looking back with nostalgia at colonialism.

    I would not be too smug about colonialism. We are only one ambitious megalomaniac away from being taken over again.

    What will the the oil conglomerates call the oil fields when they start drilling ?

    British Isle Oil or Celtic Oil ? ( consult your marketing and PR teams for reference please, see you at the retreat on the Antilles in November , best, I)


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  • #42
    The Tetrarch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    Great Britain would suffice.


  • #43
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,645 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Who cares? In fact I like how British Isles annoys morons here in Ireland, so long may it be called that. If it's anti Brit childish nonsense you want, go to reddit Ireland, that's all they do there.


  • #44
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Who cares? In fact I like how British Isles annoys morons here in Ireland, so long may it be called that. If it's anti Brit childish nonsense you want, go to reddit Ireland, that's all they do there.

    You seem to care quite a bit?


  • #45
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    fixXxer wrote: »
    It's a political term not geographical and we really should be moving past it. It belongs in the past.

    If it were a political term then it really would be a disgrace to use it to include Ireland.

    But the fact is that it isn't. It's geographical.

    No more than talking about "North America", or "the Americas" is a subjucation of the countries that are not the United States of America over there.

    "Britain" is a political term. "British Isles" is a geographical term. Just because they sound similar doesn't mean that they are the same.


  • #46
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    The Atlantic Archipelago does sound more fun though.


  • #47
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,909 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'm reading a book by Diarmaid McCullough and he seems to prefer the term "Atlantic Isles".

    I've always said British Isles myself and never thought of it as being political.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #48
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,124 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    It's funny how "the Brits" live rent free in some lads' heads. Pathetic.


  • #49
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    quickbeam wrote: »
    If it were a political term then it really would be a disgrace to use it to include Ireland.

    But the fact is that it isn't. It's geographical.

    No more than talking about "North America", or "the Americas" is a subjucation of the countries that are not the United States of America over there.

    "Britain" is a political term. "British Isles" is a geographical term. Just because they sound similar doesn't mean that they are the same.

    It absolutely is a political term and I don't think you have to be a raving republican to think that! It was first coined by John Dee in the 16th century to lay claim to Ireland. The same man also coined the term British Empire.

    I feel British Isles only adds to unnecessary confusion on whether Ireland is part of the UK or not. In any case when both the Irish and British governments don't use the term you can more or less say it should be redundant.


  • #50
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    It absolutely is a political term and I don't think you have to be a raving republican to think that! It was first coined by John Dee in the 16th century to lay claim to Ireland. The same man also coined the term British Empire.

    Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia says it was the Greeks. Anything since evolved from that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles#Etymology


  • #51
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    quickbeam wrote: »
    Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia says it was the Greeks. Anything since evolved from that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles#Etymology

    It's in the very same Wikipedia page as the first English language usage of the term.


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  • #52
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    It's in the very same Wikipedia page.

    ... mentioned after the Greeks though?


  • #53
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    quickbeam wrote: »
    ... mentioned after the Greeks though?

    He used the phrase for the first time in the English language.

    I'm always curious why people who reference the Greeks as being the first to name these isles as it being some sort of validation that the name should stay. Why should this be the case?

    The British used to call part of the North Sea the German Sea but changed its terminology after one of the World Wars. Names change all the time. Why should the British Isles stick just because of the Greeks when one component of these islands clearly wants nothing to do with the term?


  • #54
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,387 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    It absolutely is a political term and I don't think you have to be a raving republican to think that! It was first coined by John Dee in the 16th century to lay claim to Ireland. The same man also coined the term British Empire.

    I feel British Isles only adds to unnecessary confusion on whether Ireland is part of the UK or not. In any case when both the Irish and British governments don't use the term you can more or less say it should be redundant.

    This is typical of the definitions given in about a dozen dictionaries.

    PLURAL NOUN
    a group of islands in W Europe, consisting of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Orkney, Shetland, the Channel Islands belonging to Great Britain, and the islands adjacent to these.

    In the same way that the Irish Sea is usually defined as:

    An arm of the northern Atlantic Ocean between Ireland and Great Britain.

    No need to call anyone a West Brit if they use the geographical term British Isles as a shorthand.


  • #55
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    He used the phrase for the first time in the English language.

    I'm always curious why people who reference the Greeks as being the first to name these isles as it being some sort of validation that the name should stay. Why should this be the case?

    The British used to call part of the North Sea the German Sea but changed its terminology after one of the World Wars. Names change all the time. Why should the British Isles stick just because of the Greeks when one component of these islands clearly wants nothing to do with the term?

    I didn't say that. I never said it should stay because the Greeks named them.

    You said it was John Dee that named them, I said it was the Greeks.

    I never mentioned anything along the lines of: Because the Greeks named them they should stay the same name forever.

    The name *could* be changed. I just don't see a need for it.


  • #56
    WesternZulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭WesternZulu


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    This is typical of the definitions given in about a dozen dictionaries.

    PLURAL NOUN
    a group of islands in W Europe, consisting of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Orkney, Shetland, the Channel Islands belonging to Great Britain, and the islands adjacent to these.

    In the same way that the Irish Sea is usually defined as:

    An arm of the northern Atlantic Ocean between Ireland and Great Britain.

    No need to call anyone a West Brit if they use the geographical term British Isles as a shorthand.

    Why not use Ireland and Britain for shorthand, it's only one word and two letters longer and would cover nearly all situations where the term is used?
    quickbeam wrote: »
    The name *could* be changed. I just don't see a need for it.

    When one of the two governments on these islands doesn't recognise the term I'd reckon it's a good enough reason to change it.


  • #57
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,387 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    WesternZulu wrote: »
    Why not use Ireland and Britain for shorthand, it's only one word and two letters longer and would cover nearly all situations where the term is used?

    You can do that, but don't censor me from saying British Isles. Some people refuse to let the words Northern Ireland cross their lips. Which is fine, as long as they don't call other people Free Staters.


  • #58
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 34,182 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You can do that, but don't censor me from saying British Isles. Some people refuse to let the words Northern Ireland cross their lips. Which is fine, as long as they don't call other people Free Staters.

    Censored..... Your not being censored. There's no law and you aren't being banned . Enough of the faux outrage


  • #59
    Jasper Colossal Restaurant
    Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭ Jasper Colossal Restaurant


    I'll stick with the good ole reliable 'Britain and Ireland'.


  • #60
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭Feisar


    fixXxer wrote: »
    How is it petty to object to ones national identity being erased for the sake of using an out of date phrase. Its at best intellectually lazy and at worst looking back with nostalgia at colonialism.

    I don’t see it like that.

    However our crowd didn’t take the soup. I still have an O’ to my name. I don’t have to try so hard. Ireland is in the British Isles the same way Norway is in Europe.

    First they came for the socialists...



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  • #61
    rapul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭rapul


    **** the monarch and this British Isles ****e, Ireland is Ireland


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