the semantics of the British Isles

Quantum Erasure

Saw this mentioned on BBC News yesterday,

Earliest art in the British Isles discovered on Jersey
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-53835146

Fragments of stone engraved with abstract designs are the earliest known art in the British Isles, researchers say.

They were made by hunter-gatherers who lived between 23,000 and 14,000 years ago on what is now Jersey.

the thing is, according to my understanding, the Channel Islands aren't part of 'The British Isles' (unlike Ireland), and at the time Jersey wasn't an island anyway, it was still part of France...




that's leaving aside the whole issue of the 'art' that was supposedly found, these are no cave paintings, or anything like it...




Some possible interpretations of engravings on one of the plaquettes

Ten of Swords

14,000 years ago there was no Britain, France or national boundaries as we understand them today. The news article is simply using the currently accepted naming convention for the discovery location, what's the issue?

Agricola

Meanwhile on boards.co.uk.................

"Brexitman6473: Why do they call it the Irish sea? I mean we wuz the sea going, naval powerhouse, we went over to Air-Uh and gave them civilisation, the language, now look at em! Surely it shoulda been called the English Sea or Her Majesty's Waterway or summink??"

Quantum Erasure

Ten of Swords wrote: »

14,000 years ago there was no Britain, France or national boundaries as we understand them today. The news article is simply using the currently accepted naming convention for the discovery location, what's the issue?

British Isles is a geographical term, it encompasses Great Britain, Ireland, and their associated minor islands.
Jersey, Gurnsey, etc. would be geographically French, or European islands, not associated with this archipelago..

fixXxer

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

British Isles is a geographical term, it encompasses Great Britain, Ireland, and their associated minor islands.
Jersey, Gurnsey, etc. would be geographically French, or European islands, not associated with this archipelago..

It's a political term not geographical and we really should be moving past it. It belongs in the past.

whisky_galore

Who ****in cares?

fixXxer

whisky_galore wrote: »

Who ****in cares?

West Brits who wish we were still part of the empire and patriots who want us to move forward from under the colonial shadow.

IAMAMORON

Very Newtownbarry if you ask me.

It's called "Môr Iwerddon" in Welsh.

People need to get out more.

There were 6 Celtic nations, Ireland, Scotland, Wales , Brittanny (as in west France), the Isle of man and Cornwall. Get over yourselves. ( ewch drosoch eich hunain in Welsh ).

whisky_galore

fixXxer wrote: »

West Brits who wish we were still part of the empire and patriots who want us to move forward from under the colonial shadow.

Try not to get an ulcer over it, you'll live longer.

Feisar

Great Britain - Political Term

British Isles - Geographical Term

M.T. Cranium

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

fixXxer

whisky_galore wrote: »

Try not to get an ulcer over it, you'll live longer.

Keep commenting about things you don't care about

Oglaigh84

fixXxer wrote: »

It's a political term not geographical and we really should be moving past it.

No its not and yes, you should move past it / get over it.
no points for guessing what political party you vote for anyway

IAMAMORON

The languages of Great Britain and Ireland.

Auregnais, Cornish, English, French, Guernésiais, Irish, Jèrriais, Manx, Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Sercquiais, Shelta, Ulster-Scots, Welsh

Don't lose your fillings eating too many toffees over those.

AMKC

It's supposed to be a lovely island to visit. The parents were there some years back and really liked it.

fixXxer

Oglaigh84 wrote: »

No its not and yes, you should move past it / get over it.
no points for guessing what political party you vote for anyway

You can guess if you want, I don't see how it's relevant though?

Anything to contribute to the discussion besides strawman arguments?

partyguinness

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

You don't have to call it either.

What is wrong with "Ireland and Britain" or even "Ireland or Britain" if you are looking for a collective when discussing the weather.

partyguinness

I am really struglging to see the point of this thread save that the OP is trolling via the Trojan Horse.

whisky_galore

fixXxer wrote: »

Keep commenting about things you don't care about

Yep we should care what we call a bunch of islands more than a global pandemic, right?

fixXxer

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

I would say that a name that is inclusive off all parts rather than something that gives the Brits hegemony over us all.

Wiki mentions the ancient Greeks used to call this region the Pretanic Isles. It has a nice ring to it and appeals to the place name hipster in us all.

fixXxer

whisky_galore wrote: »

Yep we should care what we call a bunch of islands more than a global pandemic, right?

It's is possible, even advisable, to care about more than one thing at once. To varying degrees even.

CrankyHaus

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

The Islands of Great Britain and Ireland.
But if it's too much of a mouthful just say "British Isles" or "These Islands", or even "Western European Archipelago" if you want to bamboozle people.

BonsaiKitten

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

Britain and Ireland is probably best though I suppose you're leaving some islands out then.

Haven't the Irish Government officially disavowed the term British Isles? I remember reading about it a while back. It definitely has political undertones whether intentional or not.

Zaph

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

I've never heard of any alternative geographical name, it's simple the British Isles, in the same way that Iberia or Scandinavia are geographical names for groups of countries. I'm sure if you looked into the etymology of those names there's probably something in them that some of the residents could take historical offence to, but obviously the history of Ireland and Britain is a bit more complicated. That said, all it is is naming a group of islands after its largest island, which just happens to be Britain. I don't think it's anything to lose any sleep over.

partyguinness

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Britain and Ireland is probably best though I suppose you're leaving some islands out then.

Haven't the Irish Government officially disavowed the term British Isles? I remember reading about it a while back. It definitely has political undertones whether intentional or not.

Yes and the UK Gov official policy is not to use the term. It has no legal basis or recognition whatsoever.

Only a few hardcore loonies on Wikipedia insist on using as a wind up.

Ten of Swords

So, semantics aside, what do you think of the plaquette? Nice discovery

partyguinness

Zaph wrote: »

I've never heard of any alternative geographical name, it's simple the British Isles, in the same way that Iberia or Scandinavia are geographical names for groups of countries. I'm sure if you looked into the etymology of those names there's probably something in them that some of the residents could take historical offence to, but obviously the history of Ireland and Britain is a bit more complicated. That said, all it is is naming a group of islands after its largest island, which just happens to be Britain. I don't think it's anything to lose any sleep over.

You have it one. Do you think there would be any problem with 'Spanish Peninsula or 'Swedish Scandinavia'?

Personally I take exception to anyone refering to my country being part of the "Britsh Isles". I do not use the term and I do not recognise it.

Mad_maxx

fixXxer wrote: »

It's a political term not geographical and we really should be moving past it. It belongs in the past.

It's not a political term

riffmongous

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what is an acceptable term for British Isles in Irish terms? I often want to refer to weather patterns that affect the region that in my mind is "the British Isles" but I don't use the term as I think many Boards readers would find it objectionable. But I would like to use any acceptable alternative. Irish Isles sounds one step removed from an Australian beer commercial.

Just Britain and Ireland, if you talk about a forecast for Ireland you don't say Irish Isles, it's just assumed that the islands are included

fixXxer

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's not a political term

It's a term that started when Ireland was invaded and taken over by the British, of course it's a political term.

Pkiernan

A lot of Irish secretly love the term, and wish they could be back fully under Westminster rule!

stinkbomb

We're already past it. Neither the British or Irish governments used the contested term "British Isles" and newer textbooks don't use it either.
Western European Isles, Britain and Ireland, Ireland and the United Kingdom, Islands of the North Atlantic....all used. British Isles is not recognised by the state of Ireland and DFA etc are not to use it.

stinkbomb

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's not a political term

It is. Obviously! And has been for a long time. De Valera corrected a British politician nearly a century ago...

Zaph

partyguinness wrote: »

You have it one. Do you think there would be any problem with 'Spanish Peninsula or 'Swedish Scandinavia'?

Personally I take exception to anyone refering to my country being part of the "Britsh Isles". I do not use the term and I do not recognise it.

And that's entirely your right to do so. Personally I don't use it myself because I don't find I ever have any need to refer to the entire geographical area, rather than me taking exception to it, but equally I don't get annoyed by it either. There are far more important things to be worried about imo.

Feisar

Pkiernan wrote: »

A lot of Irish secretly love the term, and wish they could be back fully under Westminster rule!

I love it because it winds up armchair Republicans!

partyguinness

Feisar wrote: »

I love it because it winds up armchair Republicans!

As we live in a republic and adhere to constitutional republican norms then we are all republicans.

Feisar

partyguinness wrote: »

As we live in a republic and adhere to constitutional republican norms then we are all republicans.

Correct and right however that's not the sort I meant.

partyguinness

Feisar wrote: »

Correct and right however that's not the sort I meant.

So defining the state and objecting to the use of the term "British Isles" makes one a rabid Wolf Tone singing Republican? That's a bit of leap. Armchair republicans are not the only people that might get irriated by the use of the phrase.

Anyway, I thought we had taken back the use of the term republican and it is not a dirty word.

Patriotism and nationalism (in the mild sense) does not equate to some Wolf Tone singing armchair Republican of the sort you have in mind.

Feisar

partyguinness wrote: »

So defining the state and objecting to the use of the term "British Isles" makes one a rabid Wolf Tone singing Republican? That's a bit of leap. Armchair republicans are not the only people that might get irriated by the use of the phrase.

Anyway, I thought we had taken back the use of the term republican and it is not a dirty word.

Patriotism and nationalism (in the mild sense) does not equate to some Wolf Tone singing armchair Republican of the sort you have in mind.

I'd say myself and yerself would be similar enough. Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of patriotism and nationalism, although the still seem to be dirty words in the Irish context. Denying The Holocaust is a no no however mention the genocide in this country and it's roll eyes time.
I suppose personally I see it as geographical and find it petty to take issue with the term British because of links to Great Britain a political entity.

fixXxer

Feisar wrote: »

I'd say myself and yerself would be similar enough. Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of patriotism and nationalism, although the still seem to be dirty words in the Irish context. Denying The Holocaust is a no no however mention the genocide in this country and it's roll eyes time.
I suppose personally I see it as geographical and find it petty to take issue with the term British because of links to Great Britain a political entity.

How is it petty to object to ones national identity being erased for the sake of using an out of date phrase. Its at best intellectually lazy and at worst looking back with nostalgia at colonialism.

IAMAMORON

fixXxer wrote: »

How is it petty to object to ones national identity being erased for the sake of using an out of date phrase. Its at best intellectually lazy and at worst looking back with nostalgia at colonialism.

I would not be too smug about colonialism. We are only one ambitious megalomaniac away from being taken over again.

What will the the oil conglomerates call the oil fields when they start drilling ?

British Isle Oil or Celtic Oil ? ( consult your marketing and PR teams for reference please, see you at the retreat on the Antilles in November , best, I)

The Tetrarch

Great Britain would suffice.

Thelonious Monk

Who cares? In fact I like how British Isles annoys morons here in Ireland, so long may it be called that. If it's anti Brit childish nonsense you want, go to reddit Ireland, that's all they do there.

WesternZulu

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Who cares? In fact I like how British Isles annoys morons here in Ireland, so long may it be called that. If it's anti Brit childish nonsense you want, go to reddit Ireland, that's all they do there.

You seem to care quite a bit?

quickbeam

fixXxer wrote: »

It's a political term not geographical and we really should be moving past it. It belongs in the past.

If it were a political term then it really would be a disgrace to use it to include Ireland.

But the fact is that it isn't. It's geographical.

No more than talking about "North America", or "the Americas" is a subjucation of the countries that are not the United States of America over there.

"Britain" is a political term. "British Isles" is a geographical term. Just because they sound similar doesn't mean that they are the same.

Your Face

The Atlantic Archipelago does sound more fun though.

ancapailldorcha

I'm reading a book by Diarmaid McCullough and he seems to prefer the term "Atlantic Isles".

I've always said British Isles myself and never thought of it as being political.

whisky_galore

It's funny how "the Brits" live rent free in some lads' heads. Pathetic.

WesternZulu

quickbeam wrote: »

If it were a political term then it really would be a disgrace to use it to include Ireland.

But the fact is that it isn't. It's geographical.

No more than talking about "North America", or "the Americas" is a subjucation of the countries that are not the United States of America over there.

"Britain" is a political term. "British Isles" is a geographical term. Just because they sound similar doesn't mean that they are the same.

It absolutely is a political term and I don't think you have to be a raving republican to think that! It was first coined by John Dee in the 16th century to lay claim to Ireland. The same man also coined the term British Empire.

I feel British Isles only adds to unnecessary confusion on whether Ireland is part of the UK or not. In any case when both the Irish and British governments don't use the term you can more or less say it should be redundant.

quickbeam

WesternZulu wrote: »

It absolutely is a political term and I don't think you have to be a raving republican to think that! It was first coined by John Dee in the 16th century to lay claim to Ireland. The same man also coined the term British Empire.

Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia says it was the Greeks. Anything since evolved from that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles#Etymology

WesternZulu

quickbeam wrote: »

Do you have a source for that? Wikipedia says it was the Greeks. Anything since evolved from that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles#Etymology

It's in the very same Wikipedia page as the first English language usage of the term.