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Covid 19 Part XXI-27,908 in ROI (1,777 deaths) 6,647 in NI (559 deaths)(22/08)Read OP

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    From today’s Irish Times (in my opinion worth the 50 cents a day subscription).

    Chaotic Coalition undermining public confidence
    Stephen Collins
    The ham-fisted way the Government went about devising the new set of Covid-19 restrictions does not say much for the cohesion of the Coalition; far more ominously, the infighting at Cabinet has raised serious doubts about its ability to guide the country through the pandemic.
    After what, by all accounts, was a shambolic Cabinet meeting on Tuesday, Fine Gael Ministers claimed Taoiseach Micheál Martin and Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly had not engaged in prior consultation, while the Fianna Fáil side accused Leo Varadkar of acting as if he was still Taoiseach.
    Unless the three party leaders quickly get a grip and start communicating with each other in a more structured fashion in advance of future Government meetings, they will make more mistakes and undermine public confidence in their capacity to tackle the crisis.
    Things started to go wrong last Monday night when Ministers were informed that a full Cabinet meeting would take place the following day to consider new recommendations from the National Public Health Emergency Team. Fine Gael Ministers were surprised that a meeting of the Covid-19 Cabinet sub-committee was not summoned first to thrash out a clear response to the team.
    The result was that an intense debate erupted at Cabinet with Varadkar in particular expressing anger at the way the issue was being dealt with. It appears that disagreement did not just break down on party lines, with some Fianna Fáil and Green Party Ministers also objecting to the initial plan put forward by Donnelly. The frayed tempers led to a substantial amount of chopping and changing which in turn resulted in a number of contradictory new restrictions being included in the plan announced by the Taoiseach after the meeting.
    Inconsistencies
    For instance, outdoor sporting events will have to be held behind closed doors but cinemas can operate with social distancing; people are being discouraged from using public transport while children will be encouraged to avail of school buses; only six people from three households can meet in a private home but larger groups can eat out in restaurants.
    While some inconsistencies were probably inevitable, the number of them threatens to bring the entire plan into disrepute. The angry response of the GAA was just one indication that the social cohesion which has been so important in dealing with the pandemic is beginning to fray.
    The lesson for the Government is that potential problems and inconsistencies need to be ironed out in advance of Cabinet meetings. The entire system of Government advisers and Cabinet sub-committees is designed to ensure that disagreements are dealt with before they get to Cabinet so that they do not generate serious political instability.
    Sources in all three Government parties say that to date no sense of esprit de corps has developed between Ministers of different parties or their advisers. One reason for this is the social distancing restrictions imposed by the pandemic itself. Much Dáil business has been taking place in the Convention Centre, and Ministers and their officials no longer occupy offices along the ministerial corridor linking the Department of the Taoiseach and Leinster House. “Having adjacent offices enabled people from different Coalition parties to get to know each other and to discuss issues in an informal way. That is no longer the case,” remarked one adviser.
    Leinster House
    That raises the question of why Dáil business has been moved from Leinster House to the soulless Convention Centre. If politicians are expecting teachers and students to go back to school at the end of this month, why can’t they lead by example and find a way of operating in Leinster House while observing social distancing.Anybody who has visited the Dáil knows that for most the time the chamber is inhabited by just a handful of TDs while the rest go about their business in their offices. Dáil votes do pose a problem of social distancing but surely it would not be impossible to devise a system whereby TDs could vote from their offices or come into the chamber in a staggered arrangement.
    The shortcomings in the response of the political system to Covid-19 are an illustration of the fact that there is no perfect answer to dilemmas posed by the pandemic. On the one hand there is the imperative to do everything possible to protect life but, on the other, there is the necessity of avoiding complete economic collapse that would in the long run cost even more lives than Covid-19.
    This is why politicians cannot countenance a return to a full lockdown, even if such a course of action is recommended by the public health emergency team. The scale of the economic hit inflicted by the virus has been cushioned to date by a range of Government support schemes but mass unemployment and widespread hardship will be hard to avoid.
    If another lockdown is out of the question, combating the virus will require a unified response from Irish society. That is why the Coalition needs to get its act together from now on and come up with crisp, clear and coherent advice to get us through the tough times ahead.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,031 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    khalessi wrote: »
    I dont think the mods could cope with a Boards Political party

    Yes . Better sign off before we get into trouble for all this politicking, even if it's slightly Covid related ;)
    Goodnight .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    khalessi wrote: »
    Was it not a family returning from a ski trip in Feb?

    One is a fairly round number and what airline might they have flown with via which airport?

    So many questions and so little answers....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    International travel was absolutely the means by which infected people brought the virus to different countries. I am not denying that.

    How it got to Italy and spread so quickly there is an interesting question. Some consider that it relates to illegal Chinese workers in the textile sweat shops in Tuscany and Northern Italy. And indeed the theory is that many of these workers arrived by boat into Genoa.

    That's pure whataboutery and not related to your statement that
    "it's not travel related"
    It kinda is. Lets keep importing it and keep locking down. Great strategy.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    From today’s Irish Times (in my opinion worth the 50 cents a day subscription).

    Chaotic Coalition undermining public confidence
    Stephen Collins
    The ham-fisted way the Government went about devising the new set of Covid-19 restrictions does not say much for the cohesion of the Coalition; far more ominously, the infighting at Cabinet has raised serious doubts about its ability to guide the country through the pandemic.
    After what, by all accounts, was a shambolic Cabinet meeting on Tuesday, Fine Gael Ministers claimed Taoiseach Micheál Martin and Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly had not engaged in prior consultation, while the Fianna Fáil side accused Leo Varadkar of acting as if he was still Taoiseach.
    Unless the three party leaders quickly get a grip and start communicating with each other in a more structured fashion in advance of future Government meetings, they will make more mistakes and undermine public confidence in their capacity to tackle the crisis.
    Things started to go wrong last Monday night when Ministers were informed that a full Cabinet meeting would take place the following day to consider new recommendations from the National Public Health Emergency Team. Fine Gael Ministers were surprised that a meeting of the Covid-19 Cabinet sub-committee was not summoned first to thrash out a clear response to the team.
    The result was that an intense debate erupted at Cabinet with Varadkar in particular expressing anger at the way the issue was being dealt with. It appears that disagreement did not just break down on party lines, with some Fianna Fáil and Green Party Ministers also objecting to the initial plan put forward by Donnelly. The frayed tempers led to a substantial amount of chopping and changing which in turn resulted in a number of contradictory new restrictions being included in the plan announced by the Taoiseach after the meeting.
    Inconsistencies
    For instance, outdoor sporting events will have to be held behind closed doors but cinemas can operate with social distancing; people are being discouraged from using public transport while children will be encouraged to avail of school buses; only six people from three households can meet in a private home but larger groups can eat out in restaurants.
    While some inconsistencies were probably inevitable, the number of them threatens to bring the entire plan into disrepute. The angry response of the GAA was just one indication that the social cohesion which has been so important in dealing with the pandemic is beginning to fray.
    The lesson for the Government is that potential problems and inconsistencies need to be ironed out in advance of Cabinet meetings. The entire system of Government advisers and Cabinet sub-committees is designed to ensure that disagreements are dealt with before they get to Cabinet so that they do not generate serious political instability.
    Sources in all three Government parties say that to date no sense of esprit de corps has developed between Ministers of different parties or their advisers. One reason for this is the social distancing restrictions imposed by the pandemic itself. Much Dáil business has been taking place in the Convention Centre, and Ministers and their officials no longer occupy offices along the ministerial corridor linking the Department of the Taoiseach and Leinster House. “Having adjacent offices enabled people from different Coalition parties to get to know each other and to discuss issues in an informal way. That is no longer the case,” remarked one adviser.
    Leinster House
    That raises the question of why Dáil business has been moved from Leinster House to the soulless Convention Centre. If politicians are expecting teachers and students to go back to school at the end of this month, why can’t they lead by example and find a way of operating in Leinster House while observing social distancing.Anybody who has visited the Dáil knows that for most the time the chamber is inhabited by just a handful of TDs while the rest go about their business in their offices. Dáil votes do pose a problem of social distancing but surely it would not be impossible to devise a system whereby TDs could vote from their offices or come into the chamber in a staggered arrangement.
    The shortcomings in the response of the political system to Covid-19 are an illustration of the fact that there is no perfect answer to dilemmas posed by the pandemic. On the one hand there is the imperative to do everything possible to protect life but, on the other, there is the necessity of avoiding complete economic collapse that would in the long run cost even more lives than Covid-19.
    This is why politicians cannot countenance a return to a full lockdown, even if such a course of action is recommended by the public health emergency team. The scale of the economic hit inflicted by the virus has been cushioned to date by a range of Government support schemes but mass unemployment and widespread hardship will be hard to avoid.
    If another lockdown is out of the question, combating the virus will require a unified response from Irish society. That is why the Coalition needs to get its act together from now on and come up with crisp, clear and coherent advice to get us through the tough times ahead.
    Shot most decidedly fired there. Brilliantly written.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,654 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    khalessi wrote: »
    I reckon my brother and his wife had it in December but they were never diagnosed

    half the country had it in December / January (or so they say)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭GooglePlus


    half the country had it in December / January (or so they say)

    Well the way the numbers are across Europe now compared to hospital admissions/deaths, who's to say it wasn't about then?

    Wasn't there a French doctor who tested blood samples taken in December and one tested positive for Covid? Or has that been debunked, it's hard to keep up at times.

    Edit: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/french-hospital-discovers-it-had-case-of-coronavirus-in-december-1.4245275

    Our testing capacity seems to be picking up this virus in the early days now, so we're seeing what we didn't before. Asymptomatic transmission seems to be a lot higher than we thought.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,294 ✭✭✭Deusexmachina


    s1ippy wrote: »
    Shot most decidedly fired there. Brilliantly written.

    At last, some coherent commentary.

    Simple steps required from Government:

    1. Decide on the overall goal - we can’t irradiate Covid 19 - what are we trying to achieve.
    2. Set targets and stick to them.
    3. Clearly set out guidelines by sector - travel, business, agriculture, entertainment, retail, arts, education etc.
    4. Develop a consistent communication strategy with emphasis on instilling confidence, positivity and authority. Stop the ‘deeply concerning’ ‘deeply worrying’ talk. That’s not leadership, that’s fear mongering.
    5. Stop the blame game. It’s deeply divisive and doesn’t help anyone. if someone makes mistakes, stop pretending to be horrified. It’s childish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭Ll31


    I dont see how Dara Calleary can survive this. It's just too much of an insult to the people who've missed seeing family members, funerals, postponed their own important family events that a minister who approves restrictions for the citizens of this country one day, decides the next day that those restrictions dont apply to him.

    And hes gone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭plodder


    Calleary has resigned apparently (just announced on RTE radio). What other TDs and senators were at the event? I couldn't believe it when I read it was an Oireachtas society that organised it. It's hard to comprehend the stupidity behind this.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭Ll31


    At last, some coherent commentary.

    Simple steps required from Government:

    1. Decide on the overall goal - we can’t irradiate Covid 19 - what are we trying to achieve.
    2. Set targets and stick to them.
    3. Clearly set out guidelines by sector - travel, business, agriculture, entertainment, retail, arts, education etc.
    4. Develop a consistent communication strategy with emphasis on instilling confidence, positivity and authority. Stop the ‘deeply concerning’ ‘deeply worrying’ talk. That’s not leadership, that’s fear mongering.
    5. Stop the blame game. It’s deeply divisive and doesn’t help anyone. if someone makes mistakes, stop pretending to be horrified. It’s childish.

    Agree with a lot of above. My fear would be that sectoral plans dont actually exist to any reasonable level... looking at example of education for example...

    Think there needs to be some acceptance r acknowledgement re moving towards living with as opposed to eradication which seems impossible at least in advance of vaccine


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭lee_baby_simms


    Ll31 wrote: »
    And hes gone.

    Well, he had a good run.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Tbh I’m impressed that he did. It was epically stupid but it wouldn’t be the first time someone brazened it out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭What Username Guidelines




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,129 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Need to really clear up the rules now (3 days later) about this hotel. If Berlin were breaking the rules then surely this hotel was too.

    Can people have weddings of 300 people if theyre in 6 partitioned off rooms.

    Can a gym class have more in the class if it's partioned off. Crazy to think a sports hall and a space the size of a living room are allowed 6 only.

    Hopefully the government clarify if the hotel was in the right or wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,063 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    1. Decide on the overall goal - we can’t irradiate Covid 19 - what are we trying to achieve. 2. Set targets and stick to them. 3. Clearly set out guidelines by sector - travel, business, agriculture, entertainment, retail, arts, education etc. 4. Develop a consistent communication strategy with emphasis on instilling confidence, positivity and authority. Stop the ‘deeply concerning’ ‘deeply worrying’ talk. That’s not leadership, that’s fear mongering. 5. Stop the blame game. It’s deeply divisive and doesn’t help anyone. if someone makes mistakes, stop pretending to be horrified. It’s childish.


    What happens if things change unexpectedly in regards the virus, if we have a rigid plan, would it be flexible enough to withstand sudden needed change?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭plodder


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    Need to really clear up the rules now (3 days later) about this hotel. If Berlin were breaking the rules then surely this hotel was too.

    Can people have weddings of 300 people if theyre in 6 partitioned off rooms.

    Can a gym class have more in the class if it's partioned off. Crazy to think a sports hall and a space the size of a living room are allowed 6 only.

    Hopefully the government clarify if the hotel was in the right or wrong.
    More detail in the IT. It seems they thought a partition across the room was enough to satisfy the rules (which was pulled back for the speeches). Ten people at tables, all from different households presumably. Lots of shaking of hands and no social distancing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,450 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 456 ✭✭Jackman25


    A person staying at the hotel with his family told the Irish Times he saw no evidence of social distancing when he witnessed the attendees arriving.

    “No masks. No distancing,” said the the witness who asked that his name not be used.

    He said he had to push his kids through two Oireachtas members whom he recognised to try to get to the lift.

    “My 11 year old who is Covid anxious was hugely upset. The hotel has been brilliant all week on all Covid aspects. This was a really strange event with all that in mind.

    “At the reception people were being introduced to each other and shaking hands. No distancing and no masks. We were flabbergasted.”

    https://twitter.com/ConorGallaghe_r/status/1296582419441745920?s=19

    I wonder where that poor child is picking up the Covid anxiety


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,450 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭mollser


    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/21/coronavirus-nsw-hotspots-list-regional-sydney-covid-19-outbreak-locations

    Just look at the detail they give in Australia - this is where we need to be going to get on top of this.

    Also - the UK seem to be doing ok now - the fear doesn't seem to exist over there like it does here, they are definitely getting on with things and despite some spikes, they're going ok - is that right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,450 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    mollser wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/21/coronavirus-nsw-hotspots-list-regional-sydney-covid-19-outbreak-locations

    Just look at the detail they give in Australia - this is where we need to be going to get on top of this.

    Also - the UK seem to be doing ok now - the fear doesn't seem to exist over there like it does here, they are definitely getting on with things and despite some spikes, they're going ok - is that right?

    Extremely detailed. Would be helpful alright.

    I know at the press conferences before journalists asked for more local details and it was said that wouldn't be given to protect paitent identity


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    mollser wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/21/coronavirus-nsw-hotspots-list-regional-sydney-covid-19-outbreak-locations

    Just look at the detail they give in Australia - this is where we need to be going to get on top of this.

    Also - the UK seem to be doing ok now - the fear doesn't seem to exist over there like it does here, they are definitely getting on with things and despite some spikes, they're going ok - is that right?

    They are at about 20 cases per 100,000 and we are currently at 25 cases. They do seem to be a bit more calm about the whole thing now and less reactive compared to us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Non solum non ambulabit


    Jackman25 wrote: »
    I wonder where that poor child is picking up the Covid anxiety

    When I heard that my heart sank. Children should not be anxious over this disease. As parents we really need to shield them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,063 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    When I heard that my heart sank. Children should not be anxious over this disease. As parents we really need to shield them.


    Tis fairly impossible though, when you see many people wearing face protection, and you shield them from the public, questions will be asked, resulting in anxiety


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭stargazer 68


    When I heard that my heart sank. Children should not be anxious over this disease. As parents we really need to shield them.

    Problem is children these days don't seem to be shielded from anything. They hear far too much IMO.

    When I was a kid my parents would never discuss their finances, someone else marriage, problems etc in front of us. That all seems to be out the window now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,814 ✭✭✭plodder


    Extremely detailed. Would be helpful alright.

    I know at the press conferences before journalists asked for more local details and it was said that wouldn't be given to protect paitent identity
    We publish statistics down to Electoral Division level but they are totals so easy(er) to keep anonymous. I could understand why they are reluctant to publish daily updates at that level. But, they should be providing much more detail about the settings where infections are occurring. Not least because other people in addition to NPHET would be able to suggest possible mitigations. So, rather than banning all sports spectators, if we knew that groups traveling to and from games was a problem then you could have made a special case for parents traveling with their own children. I'd bet they never even considered that case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭jammiedodgers


    Ah lads, remember when the only uproar was Leo was having a couple of socially distanced cans in a park shirtless?

    Good times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,886 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    plodder wrote: »
    Calleary has resigned apparently (just announced on RTE radio). What other TDs and senators were at the event?

    Noel Grealish the only other sitting TD AFAIK. And who cares about him I suppose


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭Rx713B


    What yiz reckon numbers wise for this evening


This discussion has been closed.
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