Is it just me or have SF vanished?

RandomViewer · 17-08-2020 05:36PM

Honestly think you'd be safer walking up the Shankill road draped in a Tricolour than walking around Blanchardstown with twenty Euro in you pocket ,but hey FG Don't want to hinder free enterprise in the sink estates, Hit someone on the head and run away you are a thug. Hit someone on the head and take their money you are an entrepreneur ,

Edgware · 17-08-2020 06:19PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is the metric?
How do you assess the effectiveness of an opposition?

Considering the chaotic start to the new arrangements I think they have done their job of calling attention to what the government are doing.

According to Fionnan Sheahan The Green Minister did not want to address the issue of the Fáilte chief holidaying in Italy until pressure was brought to bear. That is the 'opposition doing their job' inmo.

https://twitter.com/fionnansheahan/status/1294704776882651138

When you have to rely on Fionnan Sheahan you have lost the argument

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 06:32PM

Edgware wrote: »

When you have to rely on Fionnan Sheahan you have lost the argument

Why is that? He certainly isn't 'Shinner'. And I am not 'relying' on him, SF certainly did call for the Failte chief to step down before she said anything.

blanch152 · 17-08-2020 07:06PM

Truthvader wrote: »

Do we have to play the "which IRA was it" game?

A person who would murder or maim other people at random in pursuit of any perceived injustice or entitlement is sub human in my view regardless of what group they claim to belong to or when they did it.

As to the difference between the dissidents and anyone else; I see none, bar one group having got what they wanted and/or deciding to settle after a 30 year sick criminal campaign (which they still glorify and celebrate) while the other groups are continuing to murder and maim people because they have not got what they wanted.

When they did it does matter. A prehistoric caveman killing for food is far different to an IRA terrorist blowing up children for some cause, and the cultural context is far different.

The society of the early twentieth century was far different to the society of the late twentieth century. A tribal war or rebellion was one thing before the Nazis showed us the depths to which humanity could sink. By the 1970s there was no excuse for the type of thing that the IRA indulged in, killing for brutality and effect.

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 07:11PM

blanch152 wrote: »

When they did it does matter. A prehistoric caveman killing for food is far different to an IRA terrorist blowing up children for some cause, and the cultural context is far different.

The society of the early twentieth century was far different to the society of the late twentieth century. A tribal war or rebellion was one thing before the Nazis showed us the depths to which humanity could sink. By the 1970s there was no excuse for the type of thing that the IRA indulged in, killing for brutality and effect.

The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing. It didn't take them to show us how low humanity could sink. Indeed we had a taste of it ourselves long before the Nazis appeared.

Hamsterchops · 17-08-2020 08:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing. It didn't take them to show us how low humanity could sink. Indeed we had a taste of it ourselves long before the Nazis appeared.

God almighty, have you lost the plot completely?

Talk about quote of the century ...

"The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing"

Honestly Francie, think before you post!

Does the murder of Six Million Jews come to mind? We all fought against the Nazis either physically or metaphorically...apart from the IRA that is.

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 08:47PM

Hamsterchops wrote: »

God almighty, have you lost the plot completely?

Talk about quote of the century ...

"The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing"

Honestly Francie, think before you post!

Does the murder of Six Million Jews come to mind? We all caught against the Nazis either physically or metaphocally...apart from the IRA that is.

Quantity is the tipping point for you?

What does it matter? Colonial powers had been indiscriminately wiping out 100's of thousands before them using the same methods.

We had discovered the depths 'humanity could sink' to long before the Nazis.

17-08-2020 08:48PM

Hamsterchops wrote: »

God almighty, have you lost the plot completely?

Talk about quote of the century ...

"The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing"

Honestly Francie, think before you post!

Does the murder of Six Million Jews come to mind? We all fought against the Nazis either physically or metaphorically...apart from the IRA that is.

Hardly any different that holocost by hunger here,the brits carried out

How many died in the british engineered bengali famines?

Hamsterchops · 17-08-2020 09:02PM

So you guys are equating the Nazis with the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans? Honestly?

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 09:06PM

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So you guys are equating the Nazis with the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans? Honestly?

By methods, yes. All those mentioned showed depravity in human terms in spades. And at various times their suprematist and oppressive agendas matched one another.
That the Nazis were more successful numerically is immaterial to the point...'the depths that humans can sink to'.

17-08-2020 09:09PM

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So you guys are equating the Nazis with the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans? Honestly?

Did the nazis create genocide here??,sure they only used the brits tactics....they invented concentration camps in the boer war era

Truthvader · 17-08-2020 09:30PM

blanch152 wrote: »

When they did it does matter. A prehistoric caveman killing for food is far different to an IRA terrorist blowing up children for some cause, and the cultural context is far different.

The society of the early twentieth century was far different to the society of the late twentieth century. A tribal war or rebellion was one thing before the Nazis showed us the depths to which humanity could sink. By the 1970s there was no excuse for the type of thing that the IRA indulged in, killing for brutality and effect.

Random murder and savagery is and was never OK

joeguevara · 17-08-2020 10:23PM

Firstly the British committed terrible atrocities to Irish people and is disrespectful to our dead to ignore that. But the IRA never said that the reason for their armed conflict was the famine. To compare the British to the Nazis in a SF thread is bizarre. Even more bizarre is to bring in Bengali famine or other colonial atrocities. The IRA started their modern armed conflict because of occupation and the discrimination and treatment of Catholics by the organs of state. To bring in the famine or Nazis is a straw man argument as by that thinking, even if there was a complete withdrawal in the 60s, the IRA or any other splinter group would still have wanted retribution for 800 years. But why stop there,would they have done the same to Scandinavia for the vikings actions.

On the other side, just because irish people were not locked up in concentration camps and gassed doesn’t mean there wasn’t a systemic genocide through mandated actions.

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 10:35PM

joeguevara wrote: »

Firstly the British committed terrible atrocities to Irish people and is disrespectful to our dead to ignore that. But the IRA never said that the reason for their armed conflict was the famine. To compare the British to the Nazis in a SF thread is bizarre. Even more bizarre is to bring in Bengali famine or other colonial atrocities. The IRA started their modern armed conflict because of occupation and the discrimination and treatment of Catholics by the organs of state. To bring in the famine or Nazis is a straw man argument as by that thinking, even if there was a complete withdrawal in the 60s, the IRA or any other splinter group would still have wanted retribution for 800 years. But why stop there,would they have done the same to Scandinavia for the vikings actions.

On the other side, just because irish people were not locked up in concentration camps and gassed doesn’t mean there wasn’t a systemic genocide through mandated actions.

Comparing methods of oppression and dehumanisation is relevant.

SafeSurfer · 17-08-2020 10:40PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did the nazis create genocide here??,sure they only used the brits tactics....they invented concentration camps in the boer war era

Concentration camps were invented by a Kerry man.

joeguevara · 17-08-2020 10:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Comparing methods of oppression and dehumanisation is relevant.

It is important but irrelevant in a thread about Sinn Fein if they say that the IRA are non existent. As the actions discussed are not happening now, of course should be recognised and form part of societal transformation, how does it help? If the purpose of the good Friday agreement is the ballot box towards reunification, what benefit is it comparing the Brits to Nazis. If that is really true, why be in stormont with them. Why engage in political discussions with them. It honestly looks like people are saying that the old way is better.

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 11:04PM

joeguevara wrote: »

It is important but irrelevant in a thread about Sinn Fein if they say that the IRA are non existent. As the actions discussed are not happening now, of course should be recognised and form part of societal transformation, how does it help? If the purpose of the good Friday agreement is the ballot box towards reunification, what benefit is it comparing the Brits to Nazis. If that is really true, why be in stormont with them. Why engage in political discussions with them. It honestly looks like people are saying that the old way is better.

Maybe take that up with the poster who stated that it was the Nazi's that 'showed us the depths to which humanity could sink'.
The world was shown long before that how low humanity could sink...simple fact.

blackwhite · 17-08-2020 11:06PM

SF’s group (which Mick Wallace and Clare Daly are part of also) refusing to endorse an EU Parliament cross-party declaration to call for free and fair elections in Belarus).

I guess we can add Lukashenko to the list of dictators that SF appear to be fans of.

https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1295408747582566402?s=21

joeguevara · 17-08-2020 11:14PM

What I’m trying to say (probably badly) is SF supporters can’t have it both ways. They were the political wing of a paramilitary organisation. As a political party, although the IRA actions can be vilified in plenty instances, the GFA drew a line under the past. But on the other hand, reprehensible actions by the British should not be forgotten and perpetrators brought to justice, it can’t be a stick to beat them with. For every person who raises the famine, someone else can say enniskillen. Who wins then? Hopefully that makes sense.

Just to be clear, the famine was one of the worst genocides in human history and has had a deep effect on the Irish people. I’ve read articles that genetic studies have shown that has caused a disposition in our dna for poor mental health, higher obesity and heart disease and maternal starvation. Fcucking crazy,

joeguevara · 17-08-2020 11:19PM

blackwhite wrote: »

SF’s group (which Mick Wallace and Clare Daly are part of also) refusing to endorse an EU Parliament cross-party declaration to call for free and fair elections in Belarus).

I guess we can add Lukashenko to the list of dictators that SF appear to be fans of.

https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/1295408747582566402?s=21

Before jumping to any conclusion based on a tweet, it is always better to see the reasons why anyone is not in support. Not doing A does not mean that they support B. Usually in cases like this it is because the original vote did not go far enough.

17-08-2020 11:20PM

joeguevara wrote: »

What I’m trying to say (probably badly) is SF supporters can’t have it both ways. They were the political wing of a paramilitary organisation. As a political party, although the IRA actions can be vilified in plenty instances, the GFA drew a line under the past. But on the other hand, reprehensible actions by the British should not be forgotten and perpetrators brought to justice, it can’t be a stick to beat them with. For every person who raises the famine, someone else can say enniskillen. Who wins then? Hopefully that makes sense.

Just to be clear, the famine was one of the worst genocides in human history and has had a deep effect on the Irish people. I’ve read articles that genetic studies have shown that has caused a disposition in our dna for poor mental health, higher obesity and heart disease and maternal starvation. Fcucking crazy,

The brits are literally last week,been found to coverup a unit of the SAS killing all males,they encounter, of military age in afganistan,

They are never going to change,

joeguevara · 17-08-2020 11:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The brits are literally last week,been found to coverup a unit of the SAS killing all males,they encounter, of military age in afganistan,

They have zero to offer the world,never have and never will.....we need to get a utd ireland and sever ties with these people

I think someone recently described the GFA a flowchart with the ultimate goal to achieve reunification. It was an excellent description. But to achieve that there must be negotiation politically with Westminster. To achieve that it is not helpful to describe them as Nazis etc. I take your point about Afghanistan cover up (I know nothing about it but taking it as fact) but that’s not our problem. As long as it hasn’t happened here since the GFA, it’s not our issue. They could equally bring up historical IRA actions and then what.

Having studied human rights it is painful to say what I said above but pragmatically, if a United ireland is the goal, sometimes painful actions are required.

If we go down the route of exposing disgusting actions by the British, then just wait for people to vote for an exit. Doing both doesn’t work. In my opinion of course.

FrancieBrady · 17-08-2020 11:38PM

joeguevara wrote: »

What I’m trying to say (probably badly) is SF supporters can’t have it both ways. They were the political wing of a paramilitary organisation. As a political party, although the IRA actions can be vilified in plenty instances, the GFA drew a line under the past. But on the other hand, reprehensible actions by the British should not be forgotten and perpetrators brought to justice, it can’t be a stick to beat them with. For every person who raises the famine, someone else can say enniskillen. Who wins then? Hopefully that makes sense.

Just to be clear, the famine was one of the worst genocides in human history and has had a deep effect on the Irish people. I’ve read articles that genetic studies have shown that has caused a disposition in our dna for poor mental health, higher obesity and heart disease and maternal starvation. Fcucking crazy,

I wasn't actually drawing parellels, I was pointing out that the 'depths to which humanity could sink' were shown long before the Nazis sank to their depth.

Basically what we need to do is NOT create the circumstances where humans will sink to those depths because there they will go regardless if it is the 1840's, the 1940's or 2040's.

The 'circumstances' for the conflict/war here were created.

joeguevara · 17-08-2020 11:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I wasn't actually drawing parellels, I was pointing out that the 'depths to which humanity could sink' were shown long before the Nazis sank to their depth.

Basically what we need to do is NOT create the circumstances where humans will sink to those depths because there they will go regardless if it is the 1840's, the 1940's or 2040's.

The 'circumstances' for the conflict/war here were created.

I actually only read the posts and took no notice of who wrote them. I actually think parallels were drawn rather than saying the Brits were Nazis. I mean that the famine was a genocide killing millions of Irish perpetrated systematically by the British. Same as the genocide committed by the Germans in WW II.

Is it not more likely that if we raise hatred based on historical actions the circumstances for divisions will lead to conflict where they can happen again. Transitional justice is based on remembering the past but drawing a line to move forward. Rwanda is a great example of this.

It is also the responsibility of people not to keep using the troubles against SF. I was thinking that if people really believe that SF and the IRA are the same and the fact that they are the biggest party here based on the last election and the second biggest party in the North, that means there is a public mandate for the IRA. That is concerning.

blackwhite · 17-08-2020 11:57PM

joeguevara wrote: »

Before jumping to any conclusion based on a tweet, it is always better to see the reasons why anyone is not in support. Not doing A does not mean that they support B. Usually in cases like this it is because the original vote did not go far enough.

The statement from all of the parties is there for anyone to read - it’s not just “a tweet”.

The only groups not to support it were the extreme right, and the extreme left.

In the space of a week we’ve SF MEPs refusing to condemn Chinese suppression of democracy in Hong Kong, and suppression of democracy in Belarus.

Both times these were cross-party initiatives within the EU parliament - not solo runs by one or two groupings.

Throw in their support of Maduro and there’s quite the pattern there

FrancieBrady · 18-08-2020 12:00AM

blackwhite wrote: »

The statement from all of the parties is there for anyone to read - it’s not just “a tweet”.

The only groups not to support it were the extreme right, and the extreme left.

In the space of a week we’ve SF MEPs refusing to condemn Chinese suppression of democracy in Hong Kong, and suppression of democracy in Belarus.

Both times these were cross-party initiatives within the EU parliament - not solo runs by one or two groupings.

Throw in their support of Maduro and there’s quite the pattern there

They gave a reason for not supporting the Chinese motion. Look it up...it's probably why they didn't support the Belarus motion, although I cannot confirm that.

joeguevara · 18-08-2020 12:10AM

blackwhite wrote: »

The statement from all of the parties is there for anyone to read - it’s not just “a tweet”.

The only groups not to support it were the extreme right, and the extreme left.

In the space of a week we’ve SF MEPs refusing to condemn Chinese suppression of democracy in Hong Kong, and suppression of democracy in Belarus.

Both times these were cross-party initiatives within the EU parliament - not solo runs by one or two groupings.

Throw in their support of Maduro and there’s quite the pattern there

Is it possible that the resolution up for a vote did not go far enough to effectively implement its goal. Abstention does not equate to disagreement. As an analogy, in our Lisbon referendum, when Ireland voted no, it was not because we were against the end goals, but we needed further protections to protect our constitutional interests. An even more relevant example is the Treaty signed by Collins because it’s ‘freedom to achieve freedom’. Were the anti treaty supporters against 26 counties being free or did they want more.

Now, it may be the reason for the abstention was nefarious but until we see the reasons I’m not going to reach a judgment. I do agree, optically it looks bad. After the Hong Kong vote abstention, there should be a clearer upfront published policy.

joeguevara · 18-08-2020 12:19AM

Also the very core of democracy is that you make your own decision based on your own beliefs. Why have MEPs at all if it’s expected to blanket follow the majority of others. If that is what is expected then it is undemocratic. If you want to disagree with a vote, then it should be based on the reasons. The fact that a blanket tweet lumped the vote of the left and far right together is in of itself disingenuous. Now I’m not saying I know the reasons for the Belarus abstention but I can be certain it wasn’t for the same reasons the far right voted against. The main reason why Brexit is considered a poor outcome is because you have more say and control within the Union. If it is expected to cow tow to what others are doing then what say do MEPs have.

SafeSurfer · 18-08-2020 08:39AM

In fairness to Sinn Fein they did permit a member to speak to Gardaí for a capital murder trial.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/brady-investigator-says-witness-who-was-sf-member-wanted-to-contact-party-first-1.4332502

Poor_old_gill · 18-08-2020 08:41AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/sinn-f%C3%A9in-witness-consulted-party-over-aaron-brady-case-before-speaking-to-garda%C3%AD-1.4332502?mode=amp

Now that Ferris is retired- who from SF will be collecting this garda killer on his release?

Will it be ‘fashion shoes’ cullinane or ‘white heritage’ holohan?

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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