Is it just me or have SF vanished?

joeguevara wrote: »

Firstly the British committed terrible atrocities to Irish people and is disrespectful to our dead to ignore that. But the IRA never said that the reason for their armed conflict was the famine. To compare the British to the Nazis in a SF thread is bizarre. Even more bizarre is to bring in Bengali famine or other colonial atrocities. The IRA started their modern armed conflict because of occupation and the discrimination and treatment of Catholics by the organs of state. To bring in the famine or Nazis is a straw man argument as by that thinking, even if there was a complete withdrawal in the 60s, the IRA or any other splinter group would still have wanted retribution for 800 years. But why stop there,would they have done the same to Scandinavia for the vikings actions.

On the other side, just because irish people were not locked up in concentration camps and gassed doesn’t mean there wasn’t a systemic genocide through mandated actions.

Comparing methods of oppression and dehumanisation is relevant.

Firstly the British committed terrible atrocities to Irish people and is disrespectful to our dead to ignore that. But the IRA never said that the reason for their armed conflict was the famine. To compare the British to the Nazis in a SF thread is bizarre. Even more bizarre is to bring in Bengali famine or other colonial atrocities. The IRA started their modern armed conflict because of occupation and the discrimination and treatment of Catholics by the organs of state. To bring in the famine or Nazis is a straw man argument as by that thinking, even if there was a complete withdrawal in the 60s, the IRA or any other splinter group would still have wanted retribution for 800 years. But why stop there,would they have done the same to Scandinavia for the vikings actions.

On the other side, just because irish people were not locked up in concentration camps and gassed doesn’t mean there wasn’t a systemic genocide through mandated actions.

Truthvader

blanch152 wrote: »

When they did it does matter. A prehistoric caveman killing for food is far different to an IRA terrorist blowing up children for some cause, and the cultural context is far different.

The society of the early twentieth century was far different to the society of the late twentieth century. A tribal war or rebellion was one thing before the Nazis showed us the depths to which humanity could sink. By the 1970s there was no excuse for the type of thing that the IRA indulged in, killing for brutality and effect.

Random murder and savagery is and was never OK

[Deleted User]

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So you guys are equating the Nazis with the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans? Honestly?

Did the nazis create genocide here??,sure they only used the brits tactics....they invented concentration camps in the boer war era

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So you guys are equating the Nazis with the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans? Honestly?

By methods, yes. All those mentioned showed depravity in human terms in spades. And at various times their suprematist and oppressive agendas matched one another.
That the Nazis were more successful numerically is immaterial to the point...'the depths that humans can sink to'.

Hamsterchops

So you guys are equating the Nazis with the British, the French, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the Spanish, the Americans? Honestly?

[Deleted User]

Hamsterchops wrote: »

God almighty, have you lost the plot completely?

Talk about quote of the century ...

"The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing"

Honestly Francie, think before you post!

Does the murder of Six Million Jews come to mind? We all fought against the Nazis either physically or metaphorically...apart from the IRA that is.

Hardly any different that holocost by hunger here,the brits carried out

How many died in the british engineered bengali famines?

Hamsterchops wrote: »

God almighty, have you lost the plot completely?

Talk about quote of the century ...

"The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing"

Honestly Francie, think before you post!

Does the murder of Six Million Jews come to mind? We all caught against the Nazis either physically or metaphocally...apart from the IRA that is.

Quantity is the tipping point for you?

What does it matter? Colonial powers had been indiscriminately wiping out 100's of thousands before them using the same methods.

We had discovered the depths 'humanity could sink' to long before the Nazis.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing. It didn't take them to show us how low humanity could sink. Indeed we had a taste of it ourselves long before the Nazis appeared.

God almighty, have you lost the plot completely?

Talk about quote of the century ...

"The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing"

Honestly Francie, think before you post!

Does the murder of Six Million Jews come to mind? We all fought against the Nazis either physically or metaphorically...apart from the IRA that is.

blanch152 wrote: »

When they did it does matter. A prehistoric caveman killing for food is far different to an IRA terrorist blowing up children for some cause, and the cultural context is far different.

The society of the early twentieth century was far different to the society of the late twentieth century. A tribal war or rebellion was one thing before the Nazis showed us the depths to which humanity could sink. By the 1970s there was no excuse for the type of thing that the IRA indulged in, killing for brutality and effect.

The Nazis did nothing other colonial powers had been doing. It didn't take them to show us how low humanity could sink. Indeed we had a taste of it ourselves long before the Nazis appeared.

blanch152

Truthvader wrote: »

Do we have to play the "which IRA was it" game?

A person who would murder or maim other people at random in pursuit of any perceived injustice or entitlement is sub human in my view regardless of what group they claim to belong to or when they did it.

As to the difference between the dissidents and anyone else; I see none, bar one group having got what they wanted and/or deciding to settle after a 30 year sick criminal campaign (which they still glorify and celebrate) while the other groups are continuing to murder and maim people because they have not got what they wanted.

When they did it does matter. A prehistoric caveman killing for food is far different to an IRA terrorist blowing up children for some cause, and the cultural context is far different.

The society of the early twentieth century was far different to the society of the late twentieth century. A tribal war or rebellion was one thing before the Nazis showed us the depths to which humanity could sink. By the 1970s there was no excuse for the type of thing that the IRA indulged in, killing for brutality and effect.

Edgware wrote: »

When you have to rely on Fionnan Sheahan you have lost the argument

Why is that? He certainly isn't 'Shinner'. And I am not 'relying' on him, SF certainly did call for the Failte chief to step down before she said anything.

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is the metric?
How do you assess the effectiveness of an opposition?

Considering the chaotic start to the new arrangements I think they have done their job of calling attention to what the government are doing.

According to Fionnan Sheahan The Green Minister did not want to address the issue of the Fáilte chief holidaying in Italy until pressure was brought to bear. That is the 'opposition doing their job' inmo.

https://twitter.com/fionnansheahan/status/1294704776882651138

When you have to rely on Fionnan Sheahan you have lost the argument

RandomViewer

Honestly think you'd be safer walking up the Shankill road draped in a Tricolour than walking around Blanchardstown with twenty Euro in you pocket ,but hey FG Don't want to hinder free enterprise in the sink estates, Hit someone on the head and run away you are a thug. Hit someone on the head and take their money you are an entrepreneur ,

MOR316

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Course they haven't, they were out in force only a few weeks ago at the massive IRA funeral up North.....

Michelle O'Nell, Big Shelly, first off the bus leading the charge into the cemetery

Hamsterchops

MOR316 wrote: »

To answer the question, it was just the OP. Sein Fein have not vanished

Course they haven't, they were out in force only a few weeks ago at the massive IRA funeral up North.....

Unfortunately they show no sign of vanishing.

MOR316 wrote: »

To answer the question, it was just the OP. Sein Fein have not vanished

I think posters no my stance on SF and indeed all parties. I'm of the opinion that to a large extent and probably through no fault of their own they have all vanished /definitely hampered.

For me the eviction story has brought to light how important issues have completely taken a back seat. It has left a vacuum which is being disparately filled by groups with an agenda. The amount of division is increasing. Was reading a Facebook page on homelessness and half of it was anti garda sentiment. The mods were trying their best to remove racist posts but they were considerable too.

MOR316

To answer the question, it was just the OP. Sein Fein have not vanished

I have no idea what the metric should be but I think it's more beneficial to discuss it than the IRA history (which is important) as it always comes to a stalemate at best and vitriol at worst.

I only found out about the failte Ireland thing a few days ago. It really was a crazy thing to do but it could be argued that the private life of someone is their decision. Was he sacked or did he resign?

Have SF made a public comment on the eviction that is in the headlines?

Have they rowed in on masks and which side are they on with regards to alcohol only bars and their we don't want sympathy campaign?

joeguevara wrote: »

What are peoples opinions on how they are performing as opposition?

What is the metric?
How do you assess the effectiveness of an opposition?

Considering the chaotic start to the new arrangements I think they have done their job of calling attention to what the government are doing.

According to Fionnan Sheahan The Green Minister did not want to address the issue of the Fáilte chief holidaying in Italy until pressure was brought to bear. That is the 'opposition doing their job' inmo.

https://twitter.com/fionnansheahan/status/1294704776882651138

I understand that people don't differentiate SF and the IRA but there is literally no discussion on SF anymore except for shoe tweets and the white privilege debacle.

What are peoples opinions on how they are performing as opposition?

maccored

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Waste of time debating

totally agree.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You have said you do not read Irish history books. However maybe you could consult a dictionary, look up the words “community” and “overlord” and get back to me.

Waste of time debating with somebody who when they cannot provide an answer, resorts to plain old fashioned dishonesty and pretends we were talking about something else.

P.S. You may want to read again what I said about books.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Absolutely unbelievable debating.

Here is what you were originally stating:

When you were unable to name a community 'living in fear of IRA overlords' you pivot to pretending you were talking about 'fear' in general.

That says it all.

You have said you do not read Irish history books. However maybe you could consult a dictionary, look up the words “community” and “overlord” and get back to me.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

At last am admission of truth. Well done France. You should do it more often. You might like it.

Absolutely unbelievable debating.

Here is what you were originally stating:

safesurfer wrote:

So the idea of local IRA godfathers such as Slab Murphy being powerful and feared figures in their communities, is, not just blown out of proportion, but like informers and sexual abuse in the republican organisation, “this is another myth blown out of proportion”.

So the notion of IRA informers, IRA sexual abuse and local IRA godfathers are not just exaggerated but are a MYTH? A widely held but false belief?

Is that your core belief?

Your house is close to the border and your experience of not being aware of any powerful local republican figures is certainly at odds with many other people living in similar situations. Confirmation bias may be at play.

When you were unable to name a community 'living in fear of IRA overlords' you pivot to pretending you were talking about 'fear' in general.

That says it all.

McMurphy wrote: »

Sectarian murders occurred in the shadows of the peace walls? I don't get your point on this? What are you saying the peace walls didn't prevent murders happening Do you realised they weren't manned physically with guards preventing anyone from venturing from one side to the other ?

"Without tying myself in a knot" - you want me to admit some communities in the north were living in fear during the troubles?

Some communities feared the British Security Forces - some feared loyalist paramilitaries, some feared republican paramilitaries, and some unionists just feared nationalists and vise versa.

Was that ever denied by anyone?

Look back over the thread.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This just another attempt to change the goalposts. I already accepted that communities lived in fear...what we are talking about is the claim that they lived and are living NOW in fear of IRA overlords.

You quoted this by Fr Denis Faul, after he had fallen out with SF and the IRA.

Please stop the dishonest pivoting to pretending we were discussing 'fear' in general.

At last am admission of truth. Well done France. You should do it more often. You might like it.

McMurphy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

And yet most sectarian murders occurred In their shadow.
Without twisting yourselves in knots is it not time to admit that some communities in some locations in Northern Ireland lives in fear during the troubles and some communities in some locations continue to live in fear?

Sectarian murders occurred in the shadows of the peace walls? I don't get your point on this? What are you saying the peace walls didn't prevent murders happening

Do you realised they weren't manned physically with guards preventing anyone from venturing from one side to the other ?

"Without tying myself in a knot" - you want me to admit some communities in the north were living in fear during the troubles?

Some communities feared the British Security Forces - some feared loyalist paramilitaries, some feared republican paramilitaries, and some unionists just feared nationalists and vise versa.

Was that ever denied by anyone?

McMurphy wrote: »

The peace walls aren't there to protect communities from paramilitaries though, they were put in place to separate the communities from each other, youths throwing stones etc.

And yet most sectarian murders occurred In their shadow.
Without twisting yourselves in knots is it not time to admit that some communities in some locations in Northern Ireland lives in fear during the troubles and some communities in some locations continue to live in fear?