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Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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  • #9392
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    jm08 wrote: »
    Yes, they were. That includes De Valera (who served time in prison) and is believed to have been the one who had Michael Collins assinated, Sean MacBride (former Chief of Staff of the IRA), who went onto win the Nobel Peace Prize, Frank Aiken who was involved in sectarian murders went onto be a Fianna Fail Government Minister.

    The Free State Government (Fine Gael's roots) executed 81 of their former War of Independence colleagues during the Civil War.

    Count yourself very lucky that the birth of your nation only entailed cheating a few Maori who were not able to retaliate.

    You are alleging now that De Valera was “the one who had Michael Collins assassinated”.

    What evidence do you have for that?

    If one examines the available evidence from various witnesses and testimonies it strongly suggests he was not behind the assassination of Collins.

    Of course the film “Michael Collins” implies he did. It is also full of historical inaccuracies for dramatic effect, such as car bombs.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9393
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,607 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    jm08 wrote: »
    The PIRA had a lot more targets of the British Army, RUC, UDR etc than all these dissident groups have now.

    Much more to it than just British army targets. No more massive car bombs outside City centre shops, no more shooting policemen, no attacks on judiciary either! The whole climate has change since 9/11 and the GFA which brought violent Republicanism in from the cold.


  • #9394
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    You are alleging now that De Valera was “the one who had Michael Collins assassinated”.

    What evidence do you have for that?

    If one examines the available evidence from various witnesses and testimonies it strongly suggests he was not behind the assassination of Collins.

    Of course the film “Michael Collins” implies he did. It is also full of historical inaccuracies for dramatic effect, such as car bombs.


    I'm not going to debate if De Valera was the one who had Michael Collins assisinated, but he did know about it and did nothing to stop it. Dev never spoke about Collins or expressed regret for his assisination by the way.


    Its going to be good fun over the next few years when all of this will be dragged up again, there will be loads of documentaries and new books about it. It will be interesting to see how FFG cope with this revived debate now that they are in Government together!


    So, now that you managed to hijack this thread down another rabbit hole, what do you think now of Sean MacBride, Former Chief of Staff of IRA, Founder of Amnesty International, Nobel Peace Prize winner.


  • #9395
    Truthvader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Do we have to play the "which IRA was it" game?

    A person who would murder or maim other people at random in pursuit of any perceived injustice or entitlement is sub human in my view regardless of what group they claim to belong to or when they did it.

    As to the difference between the dissidents and anyone else; I see none, bar one group having got what they wanted and/or deciding to settle after a 30 year sick criminal campaign (which they still glorify and celebrate) while the other groups are continuing to murder and maim people because they have not got what they wanted.


  • #9396
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    jm08 wrote: »
    That the Provisionals took the political route and laid down their arms while the rest have not (and some have merged together).


    Dissident republicans are those who do not support the Peace Process.
    Provisional IRA do support the Peace Process.


    Why do you not want to as they say ''give peace a chance''?

    You must remember that the provisional IRA were themselves dissidents. They are the incarnation of the IRA that support the most recent peace process.

    However I am in agreement with you. I am not arguing that the PIRA is not committed to the peace process. However the PIRA is but one iteration of the IRA. One of the many offshoots from the original civil war split in 1922.

    The legitimacy claimed by the provisionals was based on the signatures of 7 members of the second Dail who were elected in 1921. This they claimed gave them the status of the only legitimate Irish Republican Army and the Army Council of that army as the “legitimate government of the Irish Republic”.
    In 1969 one man, The sole survivor of these 7 members of the 2nd Dail, Joseph Clarke declared that the provisional IRA was the provisional government of the Irish Republic. Hence provos.
    This is what their “legitimacy” is based on. The opinion of one man.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • #9397
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    jm08 wrote: »
    I'm not going to debate if De Valera was the one who had Michael Collins assisinated, but he did know about it and did nothing to stop it. Dev never spoke about Collins or expressed regret for his assisination by the way.


    Its going to be good fun over the next few years when all of this will be dragged up again, there will be loads of documentaries and new books about it. It will be interesting to see how FFG cope with this revived debate now that they are in Government together!


    So, now that you managed to hijack this thread down another rabbit hole, what do you think now of Sean MacBride, Former Chief of Staff of IRA, Founder of Amnesty International, Nobel Peace Prize winner.

    You mean you are not going to provide any evidence to back up your claim that De Valera was behind Collins’ assasination?

    As for asean Mc Bride, you know he believed Collins was in Cork to negotiate with anti treaty forces and was killed by a member of his own convoy?

    A great man. To paraphrase a previous posters ridiculous comment about John Hume, his legacy was one of failure until he left the IRA.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9398
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,774 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    [Collins]A great man.

    ... who was in the ira


  • #9399
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Are there still “peace walls” in Northern Ireland?

    Maybe you could answer honestly.

    First built in the 1920s (then) still in existence today as a majority of residents (communities) (69%) believe they are still necessary for their safety.

    But If Francie says it ain’t so it ain’t so. Is that how this works?

    Typical carry on. Shift the goalposts to talking about general fears when it was clear we were talking about the 'mythical (still) IRA overlords'.

    You are away out on a limb here. The sensationalism grounded on nothing but lazy journalism and commentary by people who, it is not to hard to see, have a vested interest in promoting the fiction.
    It is an insult to communities like mine and all over NI.


  • #9400
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Typical carry on. Shift the goalposts to talking about general fears when it was clear we were talking about the 'mythical (still) IRA overlords'.

    You are away out on a limb here. The sensationalism grounded on nothing but lazy journalism and commentary by people who, it is not to hard to see, have a vested interest in promoting the fiction.
    It is an insult to communities like mine and all over NI.


    When you can’t answer play the insult card. Do you answer any questions?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9401
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    When you can’t answer play the insult card. Do you answer any questions?

    What did I not answer?


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  • #9402
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What did I not answer?


    Why were there and continue to be peace walls protecting communities in Northern Ireland? In fact more since the GFA.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9403
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Why were there and continue to be peace walls protecting communities in Northern Ireland? In fact more since the GFA.

    To keep communities apart.

    What has that to do with communities living in fear of paramilitaries from their own side.

    Are we still trying to shift the goalposts here?


  • #9404
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    To keep communities apart.

    What has that to do with communities living in fear of paramilitaries from their own side.

    Are we still trying to shift the goalposts here?

    And why was it necessary to keep communities apart?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9405
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Why were there and continue to be peace walls protecting communities in Northern Ireland? In fact more since the GFA.

    The peace walls aren't there to protect communities from paramilitaries though, they were put in place to separate the communities from each other, youths throwing stones etc.


  • #9406
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    And why was it necessary to keep communities apart?

    This just another attempt to change the goalposts. I already accepted that communities lived in fear...what we are talking about is the claim that they lived and are living NOW in fear of IRA overlords.

    You quoted this by Fr Denis Faul, after he had fallen out with SF and the IRA.
    “These people (the provos) hold the catholic community in terror.

    And again later:

    “They hold the catholic community in absolute terror”



    Asked if the PIRA were comparable to the mafia he says:

    “Very much a mafia situation indeed, in addition to the murders that’s going on you have robbery, blackmail and extortion...,,,,hijacking of cars, the taking over of houses.

    Please stop the dishonest pivoting to pretending we were discussing 'fear' in general.


  • #9407
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    McMurphy wrote: »
    The peace walls aren't there to protect communities from paramilitaries though, they were put in place to separate the communities from each other, youths throwing stones etc.

    And yet most sectarian murders occurred In their shadow.
    Without twisting yourselves in knots is it not time to admit that some communities in some locations in Northern Ireland lives in fear during the troubles and some communities in some locations continue to live in fear?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9408
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    And yet most sectarian murders occurred In their shadow.
    Without twisting yourselves in knots is it not time to admit that some communities in some locations in Northern Ireland lives in fear during the troubles and some communities in some locations continue to live in fear?

    Sectarian murders occurred in the shadows of the peace walls? I don't get your point on this? What are you saying the peace walls didn't prevent murders happening:confused: Do you realised they weren't manned physically with guards preventing anyone from venturing from one side to the other ?

    "Without tying myself in a knot" - you want me to admit some communities in the north were living in fear during the troubles?

    Some communities feared the British Security Forces - some feared loyalist paramilitaries, some feared republican paramilitaries, and some unionists just feared nationalists and vise versa.

    Was that ever denied by anyone?


  • #9409
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    This just another attempt to change the goalposts. I already accepted that communities lived in fear...what we are talking about is the claim that they lived and are living NOW in fear of IRA overlords.

    You quoted this by Fr Denis Faul, after he had fallen out with SF and the IRA.



    Please stop the dishonest pivoting to pretending we were discussing 'fear' in general.



    At last am admission of truth. Well done France. You should do it more often. You might like it.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9410
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Sectarian murders occurred in the shadows of the peace walls? I don't get your point on this? What are you saying the peace walls didn't prevent murders happening:confused: Do you realised they weren't manned physically with guards preventing anyone from venturing from one side to the other ?

    "Without tying myself in a knot" - you want me to admit some communities in the north were living in fear during the troubles?

    Some communities feared the British Security Forces - some feared loyalist paramilitaries, some feared republican paramilitaries, and some unionists just feared nationalists and vise versa.

    Was that ever denied by anyone?

    Look back over the thread.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9411
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    At last am admission of truth. Well done France. You should do it more often. You might like it.

    Absolutely unbelievable debating.

    Here is what you were originally stating:


    safesurfer wrote:
    So the idea of local IRA godfathers such as Slab Murphy being powerful and feared figures in their communities, is, not just blown out of proportion, but like informers and sexual abuse in the republican organisation, “this is another myth blown out of proportion”.

    So the notion of IRA informers, IRA sexual abuse and local IRA godfathers are not just exaggerated but are a MYTH? A widely held but false belief?

    Is that your core belief?

    Your house is close to the border and your experience of not being aware of any powerful local republican figures is certainly at odds with many other people living in similar situations. Confirmation bias may be at play.

    When you were unable to name a community 'living in fear of IRA overlords' you pivot to pretending you were talking about 'fear' in general.

    That says it all.


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  • #9412
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Absolutely unbelievable debating.

    Here is what you were originally stating:





    When you were unable to name a community 'living in fear of IRA overlords' you pivot to pretending you were talking about 'fear' in general.

    That says it all.

    You have said you do not read Irish history books. However maybe you could consult a dictionary, look up the words “community” and “overlord” and get back to me.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9413
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    You have said you do not read Irish history books. However maybe you could consult a dictionary, look up the words “community” and “overlord” and get back to me.

    Waste of time debating with somebody who when they cannot provide an answer, resorts to plain old fashioned dishonesty and pretends we were talking about something else.

    P.S. You may want to read again what I said about books.


  • #9414
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,774 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Waste of time debating

    totally agree.


  • #9415
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I understand that people don't differentiate SF and the IRA but there is literally no discussion on SF anymore except for shoe tweets and the white privilege debacle.

    What are peoples opinions on how they are performing as opposition?


  • #9416
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    joeguevara wrote: »
    What are peoples opinions on how they are performing as opposition?

    What is the metric?
    How do you assess the effectiveness of an opposition?

    Considering the chaotic start to the new arrangements I think they have done their job of calling attention to what the government are doing.

    According to Fionnan Sheahan The Green Minister did not want to address the issue of the Fáilte chief holidaying in Italy until pressure was brought to bear. That is the 'opposition doing their job' inmo.

    https://twitter.com/fionnansheahan/status/1294704776882651138


  • #9417
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I have no idea what the metric should be but I think it's more beneficial to discuss it than the IRA history (which is important) as it always comes to a stalemate at best and vitriol at worst.

    I only found out about the failte Ireland thing a few days ago. It really was a crazy thing to do but it could be argued that the private life of someone is their decision. Was he sacked or did he resign?

    Have SF made a public comment on the eviction that is in the headlines?

    Have they rowed in on masks and which side are they on with regards to alcohol only bars and their we don't want sympathy campaign?


  • #9418
    MOR316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭MOR316


    To answer the question, it was just the OP. Sein Fein have not vanished


  • #9419
    joeguevara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    MOR316 wrote: »
    To answer the question, it was just the OP. Sein Fein have not vanished

    I think posters no my stance on SF and indeed all parties. I'm of the opinion that to a large extent and probably through no fault of their own they have all vanished /definitely hampered.

    For me the eviction story has brought to light how important issues have completely taken a back seat. It has left a vacuum which is being disparately filled by groups with an agenda. The amount of division is increasing. Was reading a Facebook page on homelessness and half of it was anti garda sentiment. The mods were trying their best to remove racist posts but they were considerable too.


  • #9420
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,607 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    MOR316 wrote: »
    To answer the question, it was just the OP. Sein Fein have not vanished

    Course they haven't, they were out in force only a few weeks ago at the massive IRA funeral up North.....

    Unfortunately they show no sign of vanishing.


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  • #9421
    MOR316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,243 ✭✭✭MOR316


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Course they haven't, they were out in force only a few weeks ago at the massive IRA funeral up North.....

    Michelle O'Nell, Big Shelly, first off the bus leading the charge into the cemetery :D


This discussion has been closed.
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