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Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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Comments

  • #9362
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,116 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Especially when your side surrendered and did not achieve its objectives, would you not agree?

    I'm on the side of freedom and democracy. The PIRA didn't achieve their objectives militarily, no doubt. As for surrendered?


  • #9363
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Still waiting for you to identify a community in fear, given that you said 'then and now'.

    Are you serious?

    Still waiting for you to reply to how you would have intervened to prevent gerrymandering.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9364
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,573 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Are you serious?
    You made the claim you back it up.
    Or were you just repeating stuff you heard?
    Still waiting for you to reply to how you would have intervened to prevent gerrymandering.

    When did you ask that? And why would 'I' be intervening?

    Do you mean the government here? There was all manner of diplomatic action they could have taken to get the British to stop Unionists changing the system.
    They didn't care enough.


  • #9365
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You made the claim you back it up.
    Or were you just repeating stuff you heard?



    When did you ask that? And why would 'I' be intervening?

    Do you mean the government here? There was all manner of diplomatic action they could have taken to get the British to stop Unionists changing the system.
    They didn't care enough.


    I provided links to examples of members of communities and community leaders Stating that they and their communities lived in fear. In terror.

    But because YOUR experience was that YOUR community didn’t live in fear you dismiss the fear experienced by other communities out of hand.

    Parents arranging for their children to be kneecapped?
    Francie: A woman is not a community.

    Slab Murphy and his underground torture chamber?
    Francie: Just your average friendly neighbour.

    Fr. Denis Faul: The Catholic community is living in terror of the PIRA, they are living in absolute terror.
    Francie: Fr. Faul is only saying that cos he fell out with SF

    The Protestants if Fermanagh?
    Francie: Ignored that one. Maybe they aren’t considered a community.

    And you live close to Newtownbutler?


    Go on Francie. You are a great man for calling on others to support their opinion and only accept as fact things that are either SF press releases or proven in a court of law.

    So tell us the “all manner of diplomatic actions they could have taken” that would have “stopped the unionists changing the system”.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9366
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,573 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I provided links to examples of members of communities and community leaders Stating that they and their communities lived in fear. In terror.

    But because YOUR experience was that YOUR community didn’t live in fear you dismiss the fear experienced by other communities out of hand.

    Parents arranging for their children to be kneecapped?
    Francie: A woman is not a community.

    Slab Murphy and his underground torture chamber?
    Francie: Just your average friendly neighbour.

    Fr. Denis Faul: The Catholic community is living in terror of the PIRA, they are living in absolute terror.
    Francie: Fr. Faul is only saying that cos he fell out with SF

    The Protestants if Fermanagh?
    Francie: Ignored that one. Maybe they aren’t considered a community.

    And you live close to Newtownbutler?


    Go on Francie. You are a great man for calling on others to support their opinion and only accept as fact things that are either SF press releases or proven in a court of law.

    So tell us the “all manner of diplomatic actions they could have taken” that would have “stopped the unionists changing the system”.

    Still no examples of a community in fear that you know of.

    They could have gone all the way to cutting diplomatic ties with Beitain over what was going on, they did nothing effective for Irish people is the point.


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  • #9367
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Still no examples of a community in fear that you know of.

    They could have gone all the way to cutting diplomatic ties with Beitain over what was going on, they did nothing effective for Irish people is the point.

    Jeez. Cutting diplomatic ties is you r solution and still claiming no examples.

    The “utter waffler” moniker you have earned elsewhere seems deserved.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9368
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,573 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Jeez. Cutting diplomatic ties is you r solution and still claiming no examples.

    The “utter waffler” moniker you have earned elsewhere seems deserved.

    What do you think should have been done? Do you stand over what was done?

    We stood 'idly by'. A Taoiseach saying we wouldn't, means there were options to do something/anything.


  • #9369
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What do you think should have been done? Do you stand over what was done?

    We stood 'idly by'. A Taoiseach saying we wouldn't, means there were options to do something/anything.

    Stop waffling and answer instead of throwing questions back to cover your bluffing


  • #9370
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,573 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Edgware wrote: »
    Stop waffling and answer

    I did.


  • #9371
    Superfoods
    Closed Accounts Posts: 322 ✭✭Superfoods


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I did.

    No you didn’t

    PS it was me who said communities lived in fear. I know you are arguing with everyone on boards so it gets confusing


    I was up north yesterday for the day, lovely day it was. Back up next weekend for a lovely weekend away. You really should one day go up to NI yourself one day...


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  • #9372
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Superfoods wrote: »
    No you didn’t

    PS it was me who said communities lived in fear. I know you are arguing with everyone on boards so it gets confusing


    I was up north yesterday for the day, lovely day it was. Back up next weekend for a lovely weekend away. You really should one day go up to NI yourself one day...

    I agree. It is a great place to visit. Drove to Belfast via Warrenpoint and Rostrevor lately. On a sunny day it was beautiful under the Mournes and looking out to sea. We went on to see the Joey and Robert Dunlops memorial garden in Ballymoney. We met some local people who were really lovely. They are very proud of the Dunlops. They told us that they get so many visitors from the South who are so respectful and regularly leave flowers and memorials. They never released how popular Joey was throughout the island.
    There's more that unites us than separates us


  • #9373
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,573 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Superfoods wrote: »
    No you didn’t

    PS it was me who said communities lived in fear. I know you are arguing with everyone on boards so it gets confusing

    Wrong again.
    I was particularly annoyed by this statement. Where a poster is clearly depending on received 'wisdom' as they have again and again refused to identify any communities living in fear.
    Safesurfer wrote:
    I think it is fair to say that there were communities in Northern Ireland living in fear during the troubles and to this day.
    I live on the border for almost 60 years, and have done a large amount of work in what could be called the Peace & Rec sphere and have never come across a 'community in fear', in fact I think it is amazing how strong and resilianr communities are.
    Yes there are, as I said, incidences where individuals are in fear or small pods of people...but as I said at the start...the lazy trope of 'communities in fear' is just that .
    Superfoods wrote:
    I was up north yesterday for the day, lovely day it was. Back up next weekend for a lovely weekend away. You really should one day go up to NI yourself one day...
    Edgeware wrote:
    I agree. It is a great place to visit. Drove to Belfast via Warrenpoint and Rostrevor lately. On a sunny day it was beautiful under the Mournes and looking out to sea. We went on to see the Joey and Robert Dunlops memorial garden in Ballymoney. We met some local people who were really lovely. They are very proud of the Dunlops. They told us that they get so many visitors from the South who are so respectful and regularly leave flowers and memorials. They never released how popular Joey was throughout the island.
    There's more that unites us than separates us

    Who ever told you it was anything different up 'here'?

    Oh yeh, lazy journalists and pundits, talking about 'communities in fear' etc etc.


  • #9374
    Edgware
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,874 ✭✭✭Edgware


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Wrong again.
    I was particularly annoyed by this statement. Where a poster is clearly depending on received 'wisdom' as they have again and again refused to identify any communities living in fear.

    I live on the border for almost 60 years, and have done a large amount of work in what could be called the Peace & Rec sphere and have never come across a 'community in fear', in fact I think it is amazing how strong and resilianr communities are.
    Yes there are, as I said, incidences where individuals are in fear or small pods of people...but as I said at the start...the lazy trope of 'communities in fear' is just that .





    Who ever told you it was anything different up 'here'?

    Oh yeh, lazy journalists and pundits, talking about 'communities in fear' etc etc.

    Where did I say it was any different. Despite from being down "there" I have been all over the North down through the years at horse racing, motorcycle events etc. But you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you deny that the paramilitaries still have a negative influence over people in the community. If you allegedly live along the border maybe you cant see the woods because of the trees


  • #9375
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Thank you for finally admitting that. Words are important. Even one word can change a yes into a no.

    I am not being pedantic, but you patronisingly corrected me with incorrect information. Advising me to “Read properly” an interview which you hadn’t bothered to listen to until you were corrected.

    So now that we have cleared that up are you still arguing that Fr. Faul didn’t believe his community was living in fear?
    That they turned to the PIRA rather than the police because were afraid to go to the police, whom Fr. Faul says they would go to “immediately” in relation to all but political crimes?


    As I've said, enjoy your major internet argument victory over the use of the word ''all''. Removing that word, does not change what he was saying.


    As for going to the RUC about everyday matters. I doubt if the PIRA were verifying with insurance companies that car accidents had happened and providing reports of them. Or if your house was burnt down, the insurance company would pay out on the word of the PIRA.



    Now, you have still not answered my question about whether you can distinguish a difference between the PIRA and other republican paramilitary organisations such as New IRA, INLA etc. etc.


  • #9376
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,573 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Edgware wrote: »
    Where did I say it was any different. Despite from being down "there" I have been all over the North down through the years at horse racing, motorcycle events etc. But you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you deny that the paramilitaries still have a negative influence over people in the community. If you allegedly live along the border maybe you cant see the woods because of the trees

    Come on Edge...you are claiming paramilitaries have communities like mine in fear...name one.


  • #9377
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Superfoods wrote: »
    From the article. Maybe read it again. I will highlight to help you.

    Typical of the new form of "punishments" is one administered by an IRA unit in the Bogside of Derry on Wednesday evening.


    Which IRA? Officials? Provisionals? Continuity IRA? Oglaigh na hEireann? New IRA?


  • #9378
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Wrong again.
    I was particularly annoyed by this statement. Where a poster is clearly depending on received 'wisdom' as they have again and again refused to identify any communities living in fear.

    I live on the border for almost 60 years, and have done a large amount of work in what could be called the Peace & Rec sphere and have never come across a 'community in fear', in fact I think it is amazing how strong and resilianr communities are.
    Yes there are, as I said, incidences where individuals are in fear or small pods of people...but as I said at the start...the lazy trope of 'communities in fear' is just that .





    Who ever told you it was anything different up 'here'?

    Oh yeh, lazy journalists and pundits, talking about 'communities in fear' etc etc.

    Are there still “peace walls” in Northern Ireland?

    Maybe you could answer honestly.

    First built in the 1920s (then) still in existence today as a majority of residents (communities) (69%) believe they are still necessary for their safety.

    But If Francie says it ain’t so it ain’t so. Is that how this works?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9379
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    jm08 wrote: »
    As I've said, enjoy your major internet argument victory over the use of the word ''all''. Removing that word, does not change what he was saying.


    As for going to the RUC about everyday matters. I doubt if the PIRA were verifying with insurance companies that car accidents had happened and providing reports of them. Or if your house was burnt down, the insurance company would pay out on the word of the PIRA.



    Now, you have still not answered my question about whether you can distinguish a difference between the PIRA and other republican paramilitary organisations such as New IRA, INLA etc. etc.

    Yes I can distinguish the difference between the Old IRA, Official IRA, New IRA, Continuity IRA, Real, IRA, IRLA , IRM, INLA, IPLO.

    What is your point?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9380
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,188 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    jm08 wrote: »
    Which IRA? Officials? Provisionals? Continuity IRA? Oglaigh na hEireann? New IRA?

    I love this. Are you talking about the IRA or the IRA? Because the IRA is completely different from the IRA. And then there is the IRA. They are separate from the IRA and the IRA.

    Perhaps we should just refer to them all as murderous, terrorist bastards.


  • #9381
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I love this. Are you talking about the IRA or the IRA? Because the IRA is completely different from the IRA. And then there is the IRA. They are separate from the IRA and the IRA.

    Perhaps we should just refer to them all as murderous, terrorist bastards.

    Which brings me back to this one.

    McMurphy wrote: »
    Ok, going by this logic - same IRA Michael Collins and Fine Gael evolved from so?


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  • #9382
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    McMurphy wrote: »
    Which brings me back to this one.

    What IRA did the Continuity IRA and Real IRA evolve from?

    Was it those pesky Mexicans again?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9383
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Yes I can distinguish the difference between the Old IRA, Official IRA, New IRA, Continuity IRA, Real, IRA, IRLA , IRM, INLA, IPLO.

    What is your point?


    So you can't distinguish any difference between the PIRA and the rest?


    (Fair play to you that you can distinguish the difference between New IRA and Continuity IRA, but know nothing about the Provisionals).


  • #9384
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    [
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    What IRA did the Continuity IRA and Real IRA evolve from?

    Was it those pesky Mexicans again?



    The dissidents evolved from the provisionals, there's no doubt about that. Who do you think the provisionals evolved from though? Obviously the "Old IRA" were a sugarcoated airy fairy group who tickled their opponents into submission.

    What's with the Mexican reference? Just felt the need to post scutter did we?


  • #9385
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    jm08 wrote: »
    So you can't distinguish any difference between the PIRA and the rest?


    (Fair play to you that you can distinguish the difference between New IRA and Continuity IRA, but know nothing about the Provisionals).

    I still don’t know what point you are trying to make. Do you have a question I can help you with?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9386
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I still don’t know what point you are trying to make. Do you have a question I can help you with?


    That the Provisionals took the political route and laid down their arms while the rest have not (and some have merged together).


    Dissident republicans are those who do not support the Peace Process.
    Provisional IRA do support the Peace Process.


    Why do you not want to as they say ''give peace a chance''?


  • #9387
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,607 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    jm08 wrote: »
    So you can't distinguish any difference between the PIRA and the rest?

    (Fair play to you that you can distinguish the difference between New IRA and Continuity IRA, but know nothing about the Provisionals).

    I think the main distinction between the PIRA and the new IRAs is the kill rate which was much higher under the Provisionals. The Provos had much bigger bombs, which could kill many more people with just one bang! they also shot many more people, they had loads of semtex, mortars and rocket launches.....

    9/11 changed everything, ie no more "spectaculars" hence death & destruction on a large scale would be frowned upon, ergo the New/Continuity IRA have no teeth.

    Thank God.


  • #9388
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,147 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    McMurphy wrote: »
    [





    The dissidents evolved from the provisionals, there's no doubt about that. Who do you think the provisionals evolved from though? Obviously the "Old IRA" were a sugarcoated airy fairy group who tickled their opponents into submission.

    What's with the Mexican reference? Just felt the need to post scutter did we?

    The provisionals formed from the split in the anti Treaty IRA in 1969. The dissidents of their day.

    It’s interesting that you use the term “evolve” rather than “split”.

    Who did Oglaigh na hEireann, the Irish defence forces “evolve” from.
    Hint: It wasn’t the Mexicans.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • #9389
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I still don’t know what point you are trying to make. Do you have a question I can help you with?

    The suggestion was made by the poster superfood that all the dissidents could be traced back to the provisionals, and were therefore one and the same apparently. It led to me querying why he should stop at the provisionals? Surely if you're using that train of thought you can go right the way back to the times of Dev and Collins?


  • #9390
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I love this. Are you talking about the IRA or the IRA? Because the IRA is completely different from the IRA. And then there is the IRA. They are separate from the IRA and the IRA.

    Perhaps we should just refer to them all as murderous, terrorist bastards.

    Yes, they were. That includes De Valera (who served time in prison) and is believed to have been the one who had Michael Collins assinated, Sean MacBride (former Chief of Staff of the IRA), who went onto win the Nobel Peace Prize, Frank Aiken who was involved in sectarian murders went onto be a Fianna Fail Government Minister.

    The Free State Government (Fine Gael's roots) executed 81 of their former War of Independence colleagues during the Civil War.

    Count yourself very lucky that the birth of your nation only entailed cheating a few Maori who were not able to retaliate.


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  • #9391
    jm08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    I think the main distinction between the PIRA and the new IRAs is the kill rate which was much higher under the Provisionals. The Provos had much bigger bombs, which could kill many more people with just one bang! they also shot many more people, they had loads of semtex, mortars and rocket launches.....

    9/11 changed everything, ie no more "spectaculars" hence death & destruction on a large scale would be frowned upon, ergo the New/Continuity IRA have no teeth.

    Thank God.


    The PIRA had a lot more targets of the British Army, RUC, UDR etc than all these dissident groups have now.



    What a difference it makes reforming policing in NI. Pity they didn't do that back in the 70s.


This discussion has been closed.
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