Has the EU destroyed Ireland?

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 1:48am #1

Has the EU destroyed Ireland? Have we lost our identity, culture and heritage because of EU membership?

I think Ireland doesn't feel Irish anymore. That sense of community, togetherness and love of country is gone.
Ireland has been taken over be Liberalism and communism is creeping in.

rapul · 09-08-2020 1:51am

What's your opinion on the above first?

the_syco · 09-08-2020 1:51am

Nope. The english did that. I feel our culture has spread better because of EU membership; the Irish have been able to travel around Europe.

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 1:55am

Let me see:

Standard of living way higher.
Economic opportunity way higher.
Made us attractive for FDI as a gateway to single market.
Personal freedoms were enhanced.
Infrastructure so much better it’s unrecognisable.
Independence from British influence and ability to stand on our own two feet made possible.
Provided the framework that made peace in Northern Ireland a possibility, even if it’s been undermined by Brexit.

So all in all no it hasn’t and dramatically so.

We would have been in the shadow of English crazy politics forever. Look at Scotland!

rapul · 09-08-2020 1:57am

Ah your first post is edited, sneaky sneaky

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 2:03am

Did Ireland ever feel Irish enough for you?

For most of the last few centuries we were either a British dominion / colony or run directly from London.

Then in terms of social and cultural influences, we were utterly deferent to the Catholic Church hierarchy, which is a multinational organisation and basically an odd legacy of the Roman Empire still operating as a state and a religious organisation.

So if you think bowing down to the pope and ultra conservative values have something to do with being Irish, perhaps think again.

If anything we’re more Irish now, with more self determination, sense of pride in our culture, sense of self, a set of values that are shared in terms of how we engage with the world and how we see the nation, as well as more soft power and global recognition as a nation than we have been in centuries.

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:09am

YellowBucket wrote: »

Did Ireland ever feel Irish enough for you?

For most of the last few centuries we were either a British dominion / colony or run directly from London.

Then in terms of social and cultural influences, we were utterly deferent to the Catholic Church hierarchy, which is a multinational organisation and basically an odd legacy of the Roman Empire still operating as a state and a religious organisation.

So if you think bowing down to the pope and ultra conservative values have something to do with being Irish, perhaps think again.

If anything we’re more Irish now, with more self determination, sense of pride in our culture, sense of self, a set of values that are shared in terms of how we engage with the world and how we see the nation, as well as more soft power and global recognition as a nation than we have been in centuries.

I haven't even mentioned the Church so why are you?

This was a video from the ninties, if this doesn't make you see what we've lost I don't know what will. Unless you're a liberal who loves the EU.

https://youtu.be/fEkc8dGF2ds

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 2:18am

You get to open a thread, not have editorial control of our replies! I’ll mention whatever I like and it’s very relevant in the context of Irish culture through the 20th and even 21st century. If one were not to mention the influence of the church here and its fizzling our, it wouldn’t be ignoring one of the single biggest influences on many aspects of recent Irish culture, the state, public policy, education, the evolution of fundamental rights and individual liberty here etc etc etc

A lot of the commentary from those who bemoan a notion of Ireland losing identity tend to be harking back to a bygone era of a conservative religious Ireland.

Also things like changing technology, access to more global culture, travel, and so on have had profound impacts on opening this place up as well as just cracking open a lot of national discourse and breaking down all sorts of taboos and so on.

No country is going to remain exactly the same through the decades and there were a lot of influences here, the EU is one of them, but far from the only one.

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:19am

YellowBucket wrote: »

You get to open a thread, not have editorial control of our replies! I’ll mention whatever I like and it’s very relevant in the context of Irish culture through the 20th and even 21st century. If one were not to mention the influence of the church here and its fizzling our, it wouldn’t be ignoring one of the single biggest influences on many aspects of recent Irish culture, the state, public policy, education, the evolution of fundamental rights and individual liberty here etc etc etc

This is my thread, so I'll say what I like!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geuze · 09-08-2020 2:20am

Don2012 wrote: »

Has the EU destroyed Ireland? Have we lost our identity, culture and heritage because of EU membership?

No. It has been a force for good:

employment laws
env laws
etc.

No, we have not lost our culture /heritage due to the EU.

Culture/heritage may have changed, some things lost, but little of that is due to the EU.

Geuze · 09-08-2020 2:22am

Don2012 wrote: »

Ireland has been taken over be Liberalism and communism is creeping in.

More people voting for PBP / SF is not due to the EU.

Is it?

JustAThought · 09-08-2020 2:28am

We ruined it for ourselves Nd allowed without protest those who govern in our name to take no heed of our wishes or will or culture or values as they casually erroded and destroyed our landscape, cityscapes, housing expectTions and hopes, employment laws and dreams as well as the sovrwignty of our nation and any hope our children or grandchildren might have had for a stress free and relaxed future. We presided without protest over an orgy of abuse,public waste, cronyism, and lack of accountability at every level in the civil service and government bodies. We let them away with it for 30 years. We are responsible.

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:28am

Geuze wrote: »

More people voting for PBP / SF is not due to the EU.

Is it?

All parties in government are the same now. No opposition, they all are one big happy family who have sold Ireland out to the highest bidder.

Atlantic Dawn · 09-08-2020 2:29am

We would need to vote on it a couple of times until the result was right.

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 2:34am

Seems this is another thread trying to get a debate going using American reductionist terminology like "liberals" completely out of context.

I didn't realise I was on Twitter and assumed the level of debate in this forum was a bit more evolved and nuanced.

Geuze · 09-08-2020 2:34am

Don2012 wrote: »

All parties in government are the same now. No opposition, they all are one big happy family who have sold Ireland out to the highest bidder.

The three parties in Govt are not the same, but ok, somewhat similar.

However, the members would maybe be more different than the TDs??

It is common for coalitions across Europe to be made up of fairly similar parties.

Geuze · 09-08-2020 2:36am

Don2012 wrote: »

All parties in government are the same now. No opposition, they all are one big happy family who have sold Ireland out to the highest bidder.

What does this statement mean, highlighted?

Who is the "highest bidder"?

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:36am

YellowBucket wrote: »

Seems this is another thread trying to get a debate going using American reductionist terminology like "liberals" completely out of context.

I didn't realise I was on Twitter and assumed the level of debate in this forum was a bit more evolved and nuanced.

Seems it's ok for people on here to use the American term "right-wing" but not liberal.

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:37am

Geuze wrote: »

What does this statement mean, highlighted?

Who is the "highest bidder"?

Politicians!!!

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:38am

Geuze wrote: »

The three parties in Govt are not the same, but ok, somewhat similar.

However, the members would maybe be more different than the TDs??

It is common for coalitions across Europe to be made up of fairly similar parties.

Ireland is one of the only countries that have NO opposition, it's a joke at this stage!!

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 2:41am

Half the TDs are in government, the other half are in opposition

SF, social democrats, PBP m, the independents etc etc are all in opposition.

There's an extremely low bar of entry to politics here. PR STV voting, no party lists, very little party control and ease of election as small party or independent.

If you’re not seeing a lot of conservatives being elected, it’s because there isn’t demand for their politics and they’re not getting votes.

This stuff about how there’s no opposition is utter garbage.

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:43am

YellowBucket wrote: »

Half the TDs are in government, the other half are in opposition

SF, social democrats, PBP m, the independents etc etc are all in opposition.

There's an extremely low bar of entry to politics here. PR STV voting, no party lists, very little party control and ease of election as small party or independent.

If you’re not seeing a lot of conservatives being elected, it’s because there isn’t demand for their politics and they’re not getting votes.

This stuff about how there’s no opposition is utter garbage.

Opposition my ass!!!!!!!!!
They all are bought and paid for by the EU, they all support the same policies now. Look, the silent majority have no voice and have had enough, believe me I'm one of them.

Tell me how · 09-08-2020 2:47am

Don2012 wrote: »

Has the EU destroyed Ireland? Have we lost our identity, culture and heritage because of EU membership?

I think Ireland doesn't feel Irish anymore. That sense of community, togetherness and love of country is gone.
Ireland has been taken over be Liberalism and communism is creeping in.

Absolutely not.

And, as much as I can see, those complaining about the loss of a sense of community, togetherness and love of country is gone do less then jack to try to encourage such sentiments within the community where they live.

Communism? GTFO with that nonsense. We have regular open elections at every sector of society which influences us. Elections in which proportional representation is almost entirely used. We have one of the most democratic societies on the planet.

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 2:48am

Silent, as in imaginary?

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:49am

Tell me how wrote: »

Absolutely not.

And, as much as I can see, those complaining about the loss of a sense of community, togetherness and love of country is gone do less then jack to try to encourage such sentiments within the community where they live.

Communism? GTFO with that nonsense. We have regular open elections at every sector of society which influences us. Elections in which proportional representation is almost entirely used. We have one of the most democratic societies on the planet.

The laws and restrictions imposed on us for months now, is straight out of the Communist playbook.

Suckit · 09-08-2020 2:50am

Don2012 wrote: »

I haven't even mentioned the Church so why are you?

This was a video from the ninties, if this doesn't make you see what we've lost I don't know what will. Unless you're a liberal who loves the EU.

https://youtu.be/fEkc8dGF2ds

Old cars?
What have we lost there?
Everyone there is celebrating Ireland partaking in a foreign sport.
If we did that well again in a competition, I guarantee that the same type of reactions will happen, maybe more so. People will still flood out on to the streets and sing a Spanish worded song
We just probably won't have the old cars. The retro jerseys will probably make a comeback.

Geuze · 09-08-2020 2:53am

Don2012 wrote: »

Opposition my ass!!!!!!!!!
They all are bought and paid for by the EU, they all support the same policies now. Look, the silent majority have no voice and have had enough, believe me I'm one of them.

The SF and PBP in opposition are sceptical of the EU, not supporters of the EU.

Labour and the Soc Dems - I'd say they support the EU?

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 2:53am

Suckit wrote: »

Old cars?
What have we lost there?
Everyone there is celebrating Ireland partaking in a foreign sport.
If we did that well again in a competition, I guarantee that the same type of reactions will happen, maybe more so. People will still flood out on to the streets and sing a Spanish worded song
We just probably won't have the old cars. The retro jerseys will probably make a comeback.

You are missing the bigger picture. That Ireland is gone forever. That togetherness and proud to Irish is gone forever.

Geuze · 09-08-2020 2:55am

Don2012 wrote: »

Opposition my ass!!!!!!!!!
They all are bought and paid for by the EU, they all support the same policies now. Look, the silent majority have no voice and have had enough, believe me I'm one of them.

The EU pay for SF and PBP?

I don't understand you.

Can you be very clear, please?

endacl · 09-08-2020 2:56am

Don2012 wrote: »

You are missing the bigger picture. That Ireland is gone forever. That togetherness and proud to Irish is gone forever.

Me hole. You’re describing a subjective experience of nationhood and belonging. Do you own, or have access to, a mirror?

Go take a long hard look in it.

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 2:57am

Don2012 wrote: »

You are missing the bigger picture. That Ireland is gone forever. That togetherness and proud to Irish is gone forever.

Ah yeah! Back in 1990 when you’d various auld grumps giving out about it being a “foreign game” and various racists moaning about the fact that the team wasn’t Irish enough for them.

Nostalgia is great.

Italia 90 was probably the big moment when the modern Ireland you seem to have an issue with was probably taking its first footsteps onto the world stage, yet you don’t even recognise that.

That moment in 1990 is very much part of now, in a way that a lot of that traditionalist and conservative stuff absolutely is not.

It was outward looking, positive, embraced people as Irish and as folk heroes who were born elsewhere, had different skin colours, accents and backgrounds and even embraced an Englishman as a national treasure, without any of the baggage in either direction.

It was absolutely the opposite of some kind of an inward looking event or moment in history.

Suckit · 09-08-2020 2:59am

Don2012 wrote: »

You are missing the bigger picture. That Ireland is gone forever. That togetherness and proud to Irish is gone forever.

No. It's not. If Ireland had the same results in a world cup today, that togetherness would be back. In spades.
If you look in the right places it's always there, but for a lot of people it was only temorary anyway.

derfderf · 09-08-2020 3:05am

Don2012 wrote: »

I haven't even mentioned the Church so why are you?

This was a video from the ninties, if this doesn't make you see what we've lost I don't know what will. Unless you're a liberal who loves the EU.

https://youtu.be/fEkc8dGF2ds

Big difference is a lot of Irish can now actually afford to go over and watch the team at the European/World cup, rather than settling for a pub and dancing on a roundabout.

Suckit · 09-08-2020 3:09am

derfderf wrote: »

Big difference is a lot of Irish can now actually afford to go over and watch the team at the European/World cup, rather than settling for a pub and dancing on a roundabout.

They could then as well.
It was in Italy.

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 3:09am

You’d think you’d be tired after the walk out to RTE in the sunshine and all the shouting.

Don2012 · 09-08-2020 3:18am

YellowBucket wrote: »

You’d think you’d be tired after the walk out to RTE in the sunshine and all the shouting.

What's that now?

rossie1977 · 09-08-2020 3:39am

Don2012 wrote: »

Has the EU destroyed Ireland? Have we lost our identity, culture and heritage because of EU membership?

No we haven't.

The Irish still drink in excess, still celebrate the most mundane things, still love sport, still celebrate St Patrick's day etc etc like they did.

I think Ireland doesn't feel Irish anymore. That sense of community, togetherness and love of country is gone.
Ireland has been taken over be Liberalism and communism is creeping in.

If people loved the country so much why did so many leave in the 80s?

What is liberalism, explain it?

Communism creeping in where? We had actual left wing parties 30-40 years ago like Labour and more far left in workers party. Today we have faux left wing party in Sinn Féin and few centre left talking heads.

dwayneshintzy · 09-08-2020 3:49am

The idea that Merkel, Macron and all the other leaders around Europe are Communists is absolutely laughable. No wonder this thread was made at 2am.....

Tell me how · 09-08-2020 3:52am

Don2012 wrote: »

The laws and restrictions imposed on us for months now, is straight out of the Communist playbook.

Aside from the fact that they were enacted to counter the most devastating pandemic of 100 years, by elected officials under the advice of medical experts.

To demonstrate how non-communist this was, the government changed during the window you talk about after free and open elections had been held.

dwayneshintzy · 09-08-2020 3:54am

Anyone talking about "liberals" in the context of Irish politics has had their mind absolutely poisoned by American discourse.

09-08-2020 3:56am

Suckit wrote: »

They could then as well.
It was in Italy.

In 1990, a flight to Italy was £300-400. One way.

Jockser went to Stuttgart in a van. Italy is much further than Stuttgart.

YellowBucket · 09-08-2020 4:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

In 1990, a flight to Italy was £300-400. One way.

Jockser went to Stuttgart in a van. Italy is much further than Stuttgart.

Not that much difference between Dublin to Stuttgart and Dublin to Milan.
Both comfortably drivable in two days.

09-08-2020 4:34am

YellowBucket wrote: »

Not that much difference between Dublin to Stuttgart and Dublin to Milan.
Both comfortably drivable in two days.

To Milan is an additional 400km. And to Naples is about 800km more.

But you raise a good point. As EU members, Irish citizens keep driving when they cross the border.

Were it not for EU membership or the EU in general, Jockser could be sat at border control for a day at each border between France and Italy.

fash · 09-08-2020 6:59am

Don2012 wrote: »

You are missing the bigger picture. That Ireland is gone forever. That togetherness and proud to Irish is gone forever.

Your sense of togetherness with Irish people and your pride in Ireland may be gone - you don't speak for me or for those of us who do have a certain pride in Ireland and have a sense of togetherness.

theteal · 09-08-2020 7:57am

OP if that video is the crux of your "argument" of the lost good old days, you may be disappointed to see videos of a similar amount of people out at the very same location celebrating Big Jack as recently as a few weeks ago.

Wanderer78 · 09-08-2020 7:57am

Don2012 wrote:

I think Ireland doesn't feel Irish anymore. That sense of community, togetherness and love of country is gone. Ireland has been taken over be Liberalism and communism is creeping in.

Maybe this is all just in your head, I feel irish in Ireland, things change over time, including you, eu membership has played a critical role in our rapid prosperity, and it's been astonishing in such a short space of time. we should be proud of ourselves, and our membership of the union, it should be protected with everything we got, because without the union, we would be nothing, an economic and social back water.

Elements of liberailism have been a great thing for our nation, giving us more freedom and prosperity. Communism! please explain this one?

09-08-2020 8:17am

Hope the OPs hangover isn't too bad this morning. The EUs fault if it is.

breezy1985 · 09-08-2020 8:27am

Don2012 wrote: »

I haven't even mentioned the Church so why are you?

This was a video from the ninties, if this doesn't make you see what we've lost I don't know what will. Unless you're a liberal who loves the EU.

https://youtu.be/fEkc8dGF2ds

Doesn't look too different to the night of the All Ireland Final in Limerick in 2018.

Ireland is a way better place now. Ireland in thee 90s was a dump where most of the population would run a mile from an something as extravagant as a ciabatta or a latte for fear they would be talked about.

Also I hate this idea of what's Irish. I'm Irish and from a family that is purely Irish going back generations and Ireland to me is an open modern European country but somehow that always gets fobbed off as less Irish than the xenophobes Ireland

ExMachina1000 · 09-08-2020 8:28am

In France they speak French
German in Germany
Polish in Poland
Portuguese in Portugal
Dutch in the Netherlands
Spanish in Spain
Italian in Italy
Swedish in Sweden
Norwegian in Norway
Etc Etc

In Ireland we speak English

breezy1985 · 09-08-2020 8:30am

fash wrote: »

Your sense of togetherness with Irish people and your pride in Ireland may be gone - you don't speak for me or for those of us who do have a certain pride in Ireland and have a sense of togetherness.

Ireland is more together than ever. Old Ireland shunned and backstabbed anyone who was different and I don't just mean gay people and ethnic minorities I mean all the different little sub cultures and people of different taste to the norm

09-08-2020 8:31am

The entitlement that started with the tiger and has lived on long after is what has ruined Ireland. The people are the worst aspect.

Has the EU destroyed Ireland?

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