FF/FG/Green Next Government

efanton · 05-08-2020 12:08AM

It would be reasonable to have the pubs open if they strictly controlled the number of customers in the pub at any one time based on person/square metres, and as they do in Scotland I believe have customers sign in so that a publican can clearly show who was in their pub, on which date, and at which time. No ID, no service.

Problem is can we trust the publicans to actually strictly enforce this?

This customers who buy food can drink pints nonsense is a joke. I am sure this is being abused to no end.
for instance
Customer comes in and gets charged €10 for a bowl of sausage & chips and as it so happens the publican has an offer on where pints are reduced by €2 a pint. With the empty plates or bowls left on the table until the customer leaves just in case someone comes checking and they can claim they have just finished their meal.
In effect the customer puts the same money behind the bar as they normally would and the publican can claim that food was provided.

The reality is pubs, clubs, theatres and any other entertainment venues are never going to be totally safe until there is a vaccine.
Time for people and the government to grow up and be honest about that.

Personally I would be happy for the pubs to be open if there was someone permanently on the door, taking details from customers as they come in, and keeping a count on how many customers are in the venue, each pub having a sign on the door clearly stating how many people they can accommodate, and the Gardai doing random checks. If the numbers in the pub dont tally, or people have not signed in then the venue is closed immediately and the publican automatically forfeits his license. This would only work if a publican knows there a risk of losing their license and this would be be enforced by the courts without mercy, but it would be a fair and reasonable compromise.

markodaly · 05-08-2020 12:33AM

Bowie wrote: »

I get safety concerns and am on board.
How does one justify opening schools, but not pubs, unless they sell food. Is steak and Kidney pie or crayons a deterant to Covid 19?
Worse case in a pub people act like children and don't observe social distancing...unlike children who...wait a minute..

Well in terms of the overall benefits to society getting kids back into school is waaaay ahead of anto or paddy going to the pub to get plastered on pints.

Kids have been off schools since March and are due back in early September, you are looking at a gap of 6 months.

The government are right to be putting the right to education before the right to a pint.
Unsurprisingly, you are critical of pubs remaining closed, fancy that!
The government could come up with a vaccine tomorrow and you would still be giving out about them.

markodaly · 05-08-2020 12:38AM

To be honest, the hysteria around pubs is that.... hysteria.

There is a difference between a pub that serves food and one that doesn't. Also people forget that there is a time limit on how long one can stay in a pub with food at present.

Schools are the priority and nothing should get in the way of that.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 12:44AM

markodaly wrote: »

Well in terms of the overall benefits to society getting kids back into school is waaaay ahead of anto or paddy going to the pub to get plastered on pints.

Kids have been off schools since March and are due back in early September, you are looking at a gap of 6 months.

The government are right to be putting the right to education before the right to a pint.
Unsurprisingly, you are critical of pubs remaining closed, fancy that!
The government could come up with a vaccine tomorrow and you would still be giving out about them.

Swing and a miss....
I'm asking from a health and safety perspective how is a pub unsafe but a class room not?
How is eating in a pub safer than just drinking in a pub
It was all in the comment.

markodaly · 05-08-2020 12:53AM

Bowie wrote: »

Swing and a miss....
I'm asking from a health and safety perspective how is a pub unsafe but a class room not?
How is eating in a pub safer than just drinking in a pub
It was all in the comment you quoted.

Its self evident is it not?

Under 18's who are going back to school are the most Covid-19 resistant group.

Under 18's generally wont be going to pubs, older people will who are more suspect to the virus.

Throw the Irish love of alcohol into the mix then opening up drinking spots is not the best thing to do at the moment.

As per the food comment. Pubs that serve food are a) bigger and b) easier to social distance than pubs that are purely drinking spots.
There is also a time limit on how long one can stay in a pub that serves food.

Do you disagree with NPHET Matt or is this just another one of those rabbit hole type of discussions you like to engage in?
Would you open pubs? Yes or No?

James Brown · 05-08-2020 01:16AM

markodaly wrote: »

Its self evident is it not?

Under 18's who are going back to school are the most Covid-19 resistant group.

Under 18's generally wont be going to pubs, older people will who are more suspect to the virus.

Throw the Irish love of alcohol into the mix then opening up drinking spots is not the best thing to do at the moment.

As per the food comment. Pubs that serve food are a) bigger and b) easier to social distance than pubs that are purely drinking spots.
There is also a time limit on how long one can stay in a pub that serves food.

Do you disagree with NPHET Matt or is this just another one of those rabbit hole type of discussions you like to engage in?
Would you open pubs? Yes or No?

I was asking out of curiosity. Businesses do limit capacity. Do you think being bigger means they can cram them in or as before covid due to safety capacity was limited?
Would a limit of people allowed in at any one time make sense the smaller the pub the less people allowed in?
Will kids socially distance? We are finding younger people are contacting it and anyone can spread it.

I asked genuine questions. You go play top trumps with someone else son.

Scoondal · 05-08-2020 01:36AM

I sent a message to Heather Humphrey's office. They asked for my address and PPS number before responding to my request.

markodaly · 05-08-2020 01:47AM

Bowie wrote: »

I was asking out of curiosity. Businesses do limit capacity. Do you think being bigger means they can cram them in or as before covid due to safety capacity was limited?
Would a limit of people allowed in at any one time make sense the smaller the pub the less people allowed in?
Will kids socially distance? We are finding younger people are contacting it and anyone can spread it.

I asked genuine questions. You go play top trumps with someone else son.

OK, so you refuse to answer a very simple yes or no question, which appears to be a habit of yours.

Giving it loads giving out about government decisions, yet when pressed slightly on 'What would you do...'

**TUMBLEWEED**

James Brown · 05-08-2020 01:59AM

markodaly wrote: »

OK, so you refuse to answer a very simple yes or no question, which appears to be a habit of yours.

Giving it loads giving out about government decisions, yet when pressed slightly on 'What would you do...'

**TUMBLEWEED**

this just another one of those rabbit hole type of discussions you like to engage in

efanton · 05-08-2020 02:01AM

markodaly wrote: »

...
As per the food comment. Pubs that serve food are a) bigger and b) easier to social distance than pubs that are purely drinking spots.
There is also a time limit on how long one can stay in a pub that serves food.
...

Surely though that the crux of the issue.

There are lots of small pubs, especially in rural areas, that might have a very low volume of customers anyhow. Because they dont serve food they cannot open, but yet it is likely that many of them could still can provide social distancing to an equal or higher degree than some of these trendy gastro pubs.

Surely then sensible route would be for every 4 square metres of floor space you can have one customer, or an area of space per customer agreed by NPHET. Simply have each pub or entertainment venue display clearly on their front door a sign stating the number of people that they are allowed to have based on social distancing guideline from NPHET, so that if the Gardai or inspectors were doing spot checks they would know immediately if regulations were being breached .
If a publican can operate under such conditions then let them do so, for those that would argue that they would not do enough business, well they were given a choice.

As for the time limit do you honestly believe that is being adhered too?
I have a real difficulty believing that most of pubs that are currently open and serving food restrict customers to 90 minutes.

As for the argument that keeping pubs closed prevents people from congregating and potential spreading the virus, just look at the number of people meeting up in each others homes, or having house parties. I would hazard a guess and suggest that off license sales have increased dramatically since the pubs were closed.
Are we not just ticking a box, rather than actually addressing a problem with the current rules?

If pubs had strict limits as to how many customers they could have, and keep a written record of exactly who was was in their pub and when, I cant see why pubs could not operate under these conditions as long as they were strictly enforced.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 02:13AM

efanton wrote: »

Surely though that the crux of the issue.

There are lots of small pubs, especially in rural areas, that might have a very low volume of customers anyhow. Because they dont serve food they cannot open, but yet it is likely that many of them could still can provide social distancing to an equal or higher degree than some of these trendy gastro pubs.

Surely then sensible route would be for every 4 square metres of floor space you can have one customer, or an area of space per customer agreed by NPHET. Simply have each pub or entertainment venue display clearly on their front door a sign stating the number of people that they are allowed to have based on social distancing guideline from NPHET, so that if the Gardai or inspectors were doing spot checks they would know immediately if regulations were being breached .
If a publican can operate under such conditions then let them do so, for those that would argue that they would not do enough business, well they were given a choice.

As for the time limit do you honestly believe that is being adhered too?
I have a real difficulty believing that most of pubs that are currently open and serving food restrict customers to 90 minutes.

As for the argument that keeping pubs closed prevents people from congregating and potential spreading the virus, just look at the number of people meeting up in each others homes, or having house parties. I would hazard a guess and suggest that off license sales have increased dramatically since the pubs were closed.
Are we not just ticking a box, rather than actually addressing a problem with the current rules?

If pubs had strict limits as to how many customers they could have, and keep a written record of exactly who was was in their pub and when, I cant see why pubs could not operate under these conditions as long as they were strictly enforced.

That's what I was wondering. It doesn't seem to add up. There was no size limit as far as I know. So a small pub that did food could open and a larger one that doesn't can't? Would make more sense to limit the numbers based on size, food or not I would have thought.

Then the whole kids in a room for an extended period of time.

markodaly · 05-08-2020 02:15AM

efanton wrote: »

Surely though that the crux of the issue.

There are lots of small pubs, especially in rural areas, that might have a very low volume of customers anyhow. Because they dont serve food they cannot open, but yet it is likely that many of them could still can provide social distancing to an equal or higher degree than some of these trendy gastro pubs.

Surely then sensible route would be for every 4 square metres of floor space you can have one customer, or an area of space per customer agreed by NPHET. Simply have each pub or entertainment venue display clearly on their front door a sign stating the number of people that they are allowed to have based on social distancing guideline from NPHET, so that if the Gardai or inspectors were doing spot checks they would know immediately if regulations were being breached .
If a publican can operate under such conditions then let them do so, for those that would argue that they would not do enough business, well they were given a choice.

As for the time limit do you honestly believe that is being adhered too?
I have a real difficulty believing that most of pubs that are currently open and serving food restrict customers to 90 minutes.

As for the argument that keeping pubs closed prevents people from congregating and potential spreading the virus, just look at the number of people meeting up in each others homes, or having house parties. I would hazard a guess and suggest that off license sales have increased dramatically since the pubs were closed.
Are we not just ticking a box, rather than actually addressing a problem with the current rules?

If pubs had strict limits as to how many customers they could have, and keep a written record of exactly who was was in their pub at when, I cant see why pubs could not operate under these conditions as long as they were strictly enforced.

You argue against yourself there.

You state on one had that we should open up pubs and let them self regulate but then decry that the 90 minute rule is not being adhered to.

The furore about pubs is just that.
Get the schools open first, then talk about the pubs.

We are seeing an uptick of cases all around Europe and the sensible approach is to wait and see. We don't want to jump the gun and then in a month or so have to close down half of Ireland again.
Again, there is no perfect solution here, but hard choices.

When BoJo is being cautious and deploying some of their re-opening of various things, do you honestly think, we should be ploughing ahead?

Werent you on record in stating that people should be infected deliberately?

markodaly · 05-08-2020 02:18AM

Bowie wrote: »

this just another one of those rabbit hole type of discussions you like to engage in

So answer the question. Do you want pubs to reopen, against the advice of NPHET?

Scoondal · 05-08-2020 02:23AM

Scoondal wrote: »

I sent a message to Heather Humphrey's office. They asked for my address and PPS number before responding to my request.

My solicitor will be informed.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 02:31AM

markodaly wrote: »

So answer the question. Do you want pubs to reopen, against the advice of NPHET?

You're being very combative.

Scoondal · 05-08-2020 02:35AM

The stupidity of the Irish government is embarassing me. Maybe I should emmigrate to a third world country to enjoy my retirement.

markodaly · 05-08-2020 03:11AM

Bowie wrote: »

You're being very combative.

Not at all.
You are being evasive.

Why are you afraid of answering a simple question Matt?
It is either yes or no.

I presume, if you are giving out about the this that you are actually in favour of going against the advice of NPHET ?

efanton · 05-08-2020 03:55AM

markodaly wrote: »

You argue against yourself there.

You state on one had that we should open up pubs and let them self regulate but then decry that the 90 minute rule is not being adhered to.

The furore about pubs is just that.
Get the schools open first, then talk about the pubs.

We are seeing an uptick of cases all around Europe and the sensible approach is to wait and see. We don't want to jump the gun and then in a month or so have to close down half of Ireland again.
Again, there is no perfect solution here, but hard choices.

When BoJo is being cautious and deploying some of their re-opening of various things, do you honestly think, we should be ploughing ahead?

Werent you on record in stating that people should be infected deliberately?

My argument is not contradictory.
My point is valid. The existing rules aren't working, because they can be ignored or circumvented without significant consequences.
What is the difference between a pub that serves food with ten customers and a pub that doesn't serve food with ten customer if they are the same size?

I actually stated that self regulation was not working in many cases, but if the government actually gave teeth to its regulations and publicans were in no doubt that they would lose their license if they broke regulations, do you think there would be many that would?
The point I was making is it is perfectly possible for pubs to conform to social distancing without serving food. But we have a government that is actually afraid to put teeth into its covid regulations, and that is one of the reasons why pubs will remain closed.

We have airports open to the world, with 'random testing' and those arriving having to state where they will be staying. It is a fecking joke. I know of Americans arriving in the last few weeks who had return tickets to return to the USA TEN DAYS later. How were they going to self isolate for two weeks?
Why have we not told the airlines and travel agencies that anyone who has a return ticket for less than 14 days will not be permitted entry?
We advise people travelling out of the country to self isolate for two weeks when they return, but yet we do not confirm that this actually happens.

If we are to have regulations then lets have them enforced, and have serious consequences for those that break them . If you are not going to enforce the existing regulations then why crucify the small pubs and businesses that dont have much custom any how. Many of these will never open again if this goes on much longer.
Will this government be paying redundancies to those that permanently lose their jobs being it is they that put them out of work?
Its only a matter of time before some businesses whose insurance company fails to honour their polices tries to sue the government instead.

As for deliberate infection, I was asking the question at the beginning of the epidemic before the general public was fully informed as to whether once infected does that provide immunity. It was later proven that this was not the case. Question asked, question answered.

Shefwedfan · 05-08-2020 06:33AM

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all.
You are being evasive.

Why are you afraid of answering a simple question Matt?
It is either yes or no.

I presume, if you are giving out about the this that you are actually in favour of going against the advice of NPHET ?

He is checking with head quarter to see what the answer is, he will be back soon

:-)

Don’t expect an actual answer either....

xl500 · 05-08-2020 08:17AM

Because there are low numbers people are trying to say the pubs can open safely but maybe its because the pubs are closed we have low numbers

Shefwedfan · 05-08-2020 09:05AM

To be honest getting drunk should be one of the last considerations for everyone, for some reason it seems to be the first.

People giving examples of 1-2 pubs breaking the recommendation is also going to hit a small section, if every pub in Ireland is open it will be a disaster.

Thing is loads of posters are aware of this, they are just saying they should be open because the government is keeping them closed. If MM came out yesterday and said he was opening them we would see uproar because he wasn't listening to expert. He keeps them closed and the same loonies are in uproar because they want it open.

Never see an alternative, just more mindless ramblings

Remember, you can always get pi**ed at home if you are so dependent on alcohol

Tokyo · 05-08-2020 10:25AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

He is checking with head quarter to see what the answer is, he will be back soon

:-)

Don’t expect an actual answer either....

Mod: The next person to add running commentary on other posters to the thread will receive a permanent threadban. Consider this a final warning.

James Brown · 05-08-2020 11:04AM

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all.
You are being evasive.

Why are you afraid of answering a simple question Matt?
It is either yes or no.

I presume, if you are giving out about the this that you are actually in favour of going against the advice of NPHET ?

I was asking why one and not the other and on what basis. Discussion you know?
If that's fighting words well....

dundalkfc10 · 05-08-2020 12:11PM

I must say a huge congratulations to FFG/Greens on this week in Govt.

No major scandal and its now Wednesday lunch time.

efanton · 05-08-2020 12:28PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To be honest getting drunk should be one of the last considerations for everyone, for some reason it seems to be the first.

People giving examples of 1-2 pubs breaking the recommendation is also going to hit a small section, if every pub in Ireland is open it will be a disaster.

Thing is loads of posters are aware of this, they are just saying they should be open because the government is keeping them closed. If MM came out yesterday and said he was opening them we would see uproar because he wasn't listening to expert. He keeps them closed and the same loonies are in uproar because they want it open.

Never see an alternative, just more mindless ramblings

Remember, you can always get pi**ed at home if you are so dependent on alcohol

I used to go to a pub once a fortnight, as I care for an elderly disabled 87 year old father at home. My one night, once a fortnight, where I was able to get out and unwind.
I always went on a Tuesday night, so even when there was no covid that pub never had more than 15 to 20 customers all evening.
The same pub could have up to a hundred customers on a Friday or Saturday night.
There are many pubs up and down the country that would have similar numbers during the week. I am not suggesting that pubs should open with hundreds of people drinking at the weekend.

I know a lot of people that would go to a pub and not drink alcohol.
Pubs are not just about getting pissed you know, maybe that's just your experience.

Why have pubs or restaurants open for food in current circumstances, are people incapable of cooking for themselves?
I find the argument that people eating food are somehow magically less likely to transfer the covid virus than those that dont pure nonsense.

I agree that pubs or any public venue must ensure there is adequate social distancing and measures in place to protect both staff and customers.
If a pub or public venue can provide service with restricted numbers of people, adequate social distancing, and measure in place to protect their staff, (no one sitting at the bar for instance, etc etc), then I see no reason why a set of rules could not be put together that allowed them to operate safely.
Why for instance are pubs that have beer gardens unable to open?

We all get it, its not that anyone wants covid to spread.
If the government and NPHET set limits on the number of people based on size of pub, ensured that publicans kept a written record of all customers and the dates and times they attended, and changes to the way that customers are served, then it would be down to the publicans to decide whether they could operate under such restrictions.

My point is simple. We allow people to use other venues that involve high numbers of customers such as shopping centres, cinemas, restaurants and hotels. This has worked because these venues have followed a list of strict guidelines, and limited the numbers of customers in any one location, I cant see the reason why this cant be done for pubs and other venues as well. It may well be that these regulations are still so restrictive that many pubs decide not to open anyhow. But the choice would be there for those publicans that could operate under those restrictions. To ensure any restrictions are enforced make it clear, through legislation if necessary, that any establishment that flouts theses rules would loose their license.

Shefwedfan · 05-08-2020 01:06PM

efanton wrote: »

I used to go to a pub once a fortnight, as I care for an elderly disabled 87 year old father at home. My one night, once a fortnight, where I was able to get out and unwind.
I always went on a Tuesday night, so even when there was no covid that pub never had more than 15 to 20 customers all evening.
The same pub could have up to a hundred customers on a Friday or Saturday night.
There are many pubs up and down the country that would have similar numbers during the week. I am not suggesting that pubs should open with hundreds of people drinking at the weekend.

I know a lot of people that would go to a pub and not drink alcohol.
Pubs are not just about getting pissed you know, maybe that's just your experience.

Why have pubs or restaurants open for food in current circumstances, are people incapable of cooking for themselves?
I find the argument that people eating food are somehow magically less likely to transfer the covid virus than those that dont pure nonsense.

I agree that pubs or any public venue must ensure there is adequate social distancing and measures in place to protect both staff and customers.
If a pub or public venue can provide service with restricted numbers of people, adequate social distancing, and measure in place to protect their staff, (no one sitting at the bar for instance, etc etc), then I see no reason why a set of rules could not be put together that allowed them to operate safely.
Why for instance are pubs that have beer gardens unable to open?

We all get it, its not that anyone wants covid to spread.
If the government and NPHET set limits on the number of people based on size of pub, ensured that publicans kept a written record of all customers and the dates and times they attended, and changes to the way that customers are served, then it would be down to the publicans to decide whether they could operate under such restrictions.

My point is simple. We allow people to using other venues that involve high numbers of customers such as shopping centres, cinemas, restaurants and hotels. This has worked because these venues have followed a list of strict guidelines, and limited the numbers of customers in any one location, I cant see the reason why this cant be done for pubs and other venues as well. It may well be that these regulations are still so restrictive that many pubs decide not to open anyhow. But the choice would be there for those publicans that could operate under those restrictions. To ensure any restrictions are enforced make it clear, through legislation if necessary, that any establishment that flouts theses rules would loose their license.

You do understand the opening up slowly instead of the Big Bang approach and just open everything and hope the poo doesn’t hit the fan. To me it’s fairly simple idea, only open some section, food was easier than going around with a tape measure to every pub in Ireland, how would you police that?

It’s also amazing that people all over the world manage to socialise without a pub, even all over Ireland during and after the lock down have manage to meet up within restrictions and meet with friends, let steam off etc.

The_Conductor · 05-08-2020 01:08PM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

I must say a huge congratulations to FFG/Greens on this week in Govt.

No major scandal and its now Wednesday lunch time.

Not exactly setting the bar very high...........

RandomViewer · 05-08-2020 01:25PM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

I must say a huge congratulations to FFG/Greens on this week in Govt.

No major scandal and its now Wednesday lunch time.

There is the FG council candidate up in court in Cork, not big but maybe more to come

efanton · 05-08-2020 01:50PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You do understand the opening up slowly instead of the Big Bang approach and just open everything and hope the poo doesn’t hit the fan. To me it’s fairly simple idea, only open some section, food was easier than going around with a tape measure to every pub in Ireland, how would you police that?

It’s also amazing that people all over the world manage to socialise without a pub, even all over Ireland during and after the lock down have manage to meet up within restrictions and meet with friends, let steam off etc.

Why the distinction between a pub and any other venue?

Are you against restaurants, hotels, cinemas, shopping centre or other venues with high volumes of customers opening?
If not, why not?

You yourself pointed out that people are still meeting up outside of pubs to share a drink. Does that make it safer?

dundalkfc10 · 05-08-2020 03:27PM

efanton wrote: »

Why the distinction between a pub and any other venue?

Are you against restaurants, hotels, cinemas, shopping centre or other venues with high volumes of customers opening?
If not, why not?

You yourself pointed out that people are still meeting up outside of pubs to share a drink. Does that make it safer?

Yes cans in the house with 10 friends sitting around kitchen table is much safer than 10 of you sitting around a table in a pub having Pints.

Jesus everyone knows that :pac:

Covid does not like Kitchen Tables

FF/FG/Green Next Government

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