Briars and Ivy taking over Ireland

_Brian · 28-07-2020 12:22pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think too some of the so called "hedge cutters" ie contractors, are clueless when it comes to properly cutting and shapping hedges. Saw some awfull examples recently that were simply clumsy slash jobs - you would swear along some sections he was using grenades rather than a flail!! ANyway such poor mangement damages the young trees and bushes to such an extent it stunts/destroys their regrowth and so allows the likes of Briars to potentially take over and undermine the solidity of the entire hedge.

But it’s “tidy” and doesn’t everyone think they are great farmers 🙄

wrangler · 28-07-2020 12:48pm

_Brian wrote: »

But it’s “tidy” and doesn’t everyone think they are great farmers &#55357;&#56900;

I'm at a stocking level that is verging on being derogation level, so close in fact that if I don't sell my cull ewes by July 1st I'd be gone over.
The hedgecutting contractor never has to do the sides of the hedges if I spray the weeds as the sheep keep it trimmed.
As the farm is overlooked by the local village bypass I get loads of complements about it, I was made aware of this lately when one of the posters here told us that the public were complaining about the way the environment was managed just like you have now.
There's plenty of neglected farms around without those that know better doing it as well

endainoz · 28-07-2020 3:52pm

Have been following a lot of the stuff Richard Perkins is doing. He runs a regenerative farm in Sweden and when he bought the farm he had to spend a fair amount on putting up boundary fences that had to be fairly heavy duty to stop deer breaking in.

But while also putting up the expensive deer fence, beside it, he planted a living hedge, done to spec to be stock proof with weaving interlocking branches that made the fence completely stock proof. This living hedge idea was a big deal in the UK in the days before electric fences and seem like a real lost art.

The idea of putting the two fences up at the same time was that the big deer fence will start depreciating and deteriorating as soon as it's up but the living hedge gets a chance to establish and gets stronger over time and will eventually be self maintaining. There is the obvious advantage of attracting wild life and improving soil on top of this.

If this new REPS has some sort of hedge scheme I'd love to try out a few sections and see how it would go.

Biscuitus · 28-07-2020 4:13pm

I think people need to look a bit further than their own property. This is a nationwide problem, not just your neighbour Jim's ditch. Go to any public park and Ivy has taken over the trees and hedges. Any back road is smothered now with briars. Recently installed motorway fencing is a mess of briars now. I walked past some planted forestry in reclaimed land and all the outside trees were covered in Ivy preventing any leaves in the lower branches. Abandoned houses that you used to be clearly visible have disappeared under growth.

Briars and Ivy are growing at an alarming rate across the country cause of the warmer Winters and high amount of carbon in the air. Before the colder weather would mean them stop growing over the colder months but now they just power on through.

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Far from a problem if there was any reasonable amount of hedge management out there. Unfortunately proper hedge management is a thing of the past

You can't just blame hedge management when there are factors completely out of our hands at play. When I was a kid I was given a job to snip some briars by a shed. Untouched 10 years later they had only grown a metre. Now when I cut briars they are back 2m in a year. Same goes for Ivy. There were lots of trees and areas of the farm I used to play in as a kid and there was never a glimpse of ivy. Now it's covering everything.

Birdnuts wrote: »

If a tree is healthy, ivy won't bother it.

I don't think you understand what a healthy tree is nor how ivy works because this is a laughably incorrect statement.

amadangomor wrote: »

Ivy and trees have been around for millions of years and there are still trees.

Humans and global warming haven't though

Fleetwoodmac · 28-07-2020 4:24pm

Base price wrote: »

Look at the base of the tree and see where the Ivy stems are growing up. Cut a section of the Ivy stems near the base of the tree (1' or 2'), then cut another section about 4" up. If its mature Ivy get a hammer or pinch bar and prise the cut sections out to leave a gap. The uppermost part of the Ivy will die but the stem end will still continue to grow. If you want to kill off the stem end then paint those sections nearest the ground with an approved brushwood herbicide. Depending on the age of the Ivy growing on the tree there maybe several Ivy stems intersecting each other so follow each stem as it appears around the base and around the trunk of the tree.

Most people think that Ivy is a parasitic plant (like mistletoe) and that it lives off the nutrients on the tree that it growing on - it doesn't. Ivy has its own system that transfers nutrients/water between it's root and leaves.

TBH I quit cutting Ivy stems on our trees several years ago after listening to Philip McCabe (RIP) - the bee man on Mooney Goes Wild. He told how important Ivy flowers are to our bumblebees so that they could stock up stores coming into Winter. Ivy comes into flower in Autumn so its a very important plant for our wild bees and pollinators to store up for Winter.

We have several hives scattered around, it's the ivy the native honeybees gravitate to and the quality of ivy honey is distinctive in terms of taste and texture. The honey from ivy and also Blackthorn and whitethorn blossom are considered the gold star amongst many beekeepers.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 28-07-2020 4:49pm

We would always try to leave any hedge cutting to spring to maintain the blackberries for birds over winter. But the restrictions on hedgecutting in spring means we now have to cut in Autumn so the amount of feed left for wildlife over winter is drastically reduced.

And then we get criticised for reductions in wildlife:rolleyes:

wrangler · 28-07-2020 4:52pm

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

We would always try to leave any hedge cutting to spring to maintain the blackberries for birds over winter. But the restrictions on hedgecutting in spring means we now have to cut in Autumn so the amount of feed left for wildlife over winter is drastically reduced.

And then we get criticised for reductions in wildlife:rolleyes:

It's not always the strongest species that survive, but the ones best able to adapt.
Drystock farmers would know something about that, they seem to be always having to change to adapt

yosemitesam1 · 28-07-2020 6:50pm

Biscuitus wrote: »

I think people need to look a bit further than their own property. This is a nationwide problem, not just your neighbour Jim's ditch. Go to any public park and Ivy has taken over the trees and hedges. Any back road is smothered now with briars. Recently installed motorway fencing is a mess of briars now. I walked past some planted forestry in reclaimed land and all the outside trees were covered in Ivy preventing any leaves in the lower branches. Abandoned houses that you used to be clearly visible have disappeared under growth.

Briars and Ivy are growing at an alarming rate across the country cause of the warmer Winters and high amount of carbon in the air. Before the colder weather would mean them stop growing over the colder months but now they just power on through.

You can't just blame hedge management when there are factors completely out of our hands at play. When I was a kid I was given a job to snip some briars by a shed. Untouched 10 years later they had only grown a metre. Now when I cut briars they are back 2m in a year. Same goes for Ivy. There were lots of trees and areas of the farm I used to play in as a kid and there was never a glimpse of ivy. Now it's covering everything.

I don't think you understand what a healthy tree is nor how ivy works because this is a laughably incorrect statement.

Humans and global warming haven't though

It sounds like you've too much time on your hands.
Briars and ivy have always grown at pretty similar rates to
what they do now.
They might have the chance to grow more in some places but are exterminated in others. Modern management overwhelmingly favours turning hedges into poor quality habitats

yosemitesam1 · 28-07-2020 6:51pm

wrangler wrote: »

It's not always the strongest species that survive, but the ones best able to adapt.
Drystock farmers would know something about that, they seem to be always having to change to adapt

A countryside full of grass, cows and crows with nothing else surviving would be great...

wrangler · 28-07-2020 7:02pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

A countryside full of grass, cows and crows with nothing else surviving would be great...

Wildlife doesn't bother me and I don't bother them, plenty of wild areas in Ireland for them and there'll be more wild areas for them

Castlekeeper · 28-07-2020 8:02pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Are you sure about that? Fairly sure ausulox goes out in late July/ August and kills bracken for the following year

I was referring to rolling/cutting/crushing bracken.
I pulled a stripe across a hill with a weedlicker and round up about 10 years ago and it's still clear. I didn't do a second as my underpants was wedged up to my armpits and drenched (with sweat of course!)

Donegalforever · 28-07-2020 8:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Any googling i seen says asolux is banned in EU??

If i could get it,i would

I was also of the opinion that Asolux is banned.
If it can be got, I am interested.

yosemitesam1 · 28-07-2020 8:46pm

Donegalforever wrote: »

I was also of the opinion that Asolux is banned.
If it can be got, I am interested.

There was some sort of special derogation for it's use after it was banned originally. Not sure if that's still the case

Birdnuts · 28-07-2020 9:23pm

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

We would always try to leave any hedge cutting to spring to maintain the blackberries for birds over winter. But the restrictions on hedgecutting in spring means we now have to cut in Autumn so the amount of feed left for wildlife over winter is drastically reduced.

And then we get criticised for reductions in wildlife:rolleyes:

Prior to the mechanisation of farming over the last 60 years, hedges were cut on a 3-5 year basis along different sections each year- this allowed a variety of suitable conditions to exist for winter food, nesting and pollinators on the same farm. This was also supposed to have been part of the original REPS but the DAFM managed to make a balls of it:rolleyes:

minerleague · 28-07-2020 9:35pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Prior to the mechanisation of farming over the last 60 years, hedges were cut on a 3-5 year basis along different sections each year- this allowed a variety of suitable conditions to exist for winter food, nesting and pollinators on the same farm. This was also supposed to have been part of the original REPS but the DAFM managed to make a balls of it:rolleyes:

more like 15-20 years if stretched (layed) properly. supplied firewood aswell as stockproofing hedge. Do some here still every winter ( slow going but satisfying to see sprouting hedge following year) Problem with modern hedge management (either short back and sides with flail or big track machine bashing everything down) is faster growing (more resilient) plants ( hazel, alder briars etc) eventually crowd out slower growing plants( whitethorn, holly, crabapple, plum) and you lose diversity.

forgottenhills · 28-07-2020 11:43pm

minerleague wrote: »

more like 15-20 years if stretched (layed) properly. supplied firewood aswell as stockproofing hedge. Do some here still every winter ( slow going but satisfying to see sprouting hedge following year) Problem with modern hedge management (either short back and sides with flail or big track machine bashing everything down) is faster growing (more resilient) plants ( hazel, alder briars etc) eventually crowd out slower growing plants( whitethorn, holly, crabapple, plum) and you lose diversity.

I have observed an orchard and garden abandoned and left to its own devices for years. I have also the experience of cutting back the same hedges for more than 30 years. Based on this I have made the following observations:

Ivy can indeed (over many years if left to its own devices) overcome and kill small trees and shrubs such as apple trees or cherry blossoms. Ivy also seems to be able to kill sizeable enough ash trees.

In clipped hedges that originally consisted of many different varieties of shrub and bushes certain plants will eventually take over. These include ivy, elder and holly. Holly is slow growing but surprisingly persistent. It just keeps on coming and crowds out other shrubs or bushes. Ivy will eventually kill off hedging bushes such as hawthorn that are clipped back, if not cut back off them.

Watching trees compete for light in this country as they grow from self planted seeds it is also a complete mystery for me how oak ever came to dominate some wooded areas. It is such a hard tree to keep going as it grows so slowly and can be crowded out by everything from cleavers to sycamores. Sycamores can grow 5 or 6 foot a year or more and with their big leaves and massive amount of seeds they seem to be able to crowd everything else out. I know that they are not native to Ireland and they really are a pest tree.

Birdnuts · 29-07-2020 1:34am

forgottenhills wrote: »

I have observed an orchard and garden abandoned and left to its own devices for years. I have also the experience of cutting back the same hedges for more than 30 years. Based on this I have made the following observations:

Ivy can indeed (over many years if left to its own devices) overcome and kill small trees and shrubs such as apple trees or cherry blossoms. Ivy also seems to be able to kill sizeable enough ash trees.

In clipped hedges that originally consisted of many different varieties of shrub and bushes certain plants will eventually take over. These include ivy, elder and holly. Holly is slow growing but surprisingly persistent. It just keeps on coming and crowds out other shrubs or bushes. Ivy will eventually kill off hedging bushes such as hawthorn that are clipped back, if not cut back off them.

Watching trees compete for light in this country as they grow from self planted seeds it is also a complete mystery for me how oak ever came to dominate some wooded areas. It is such a hard tree to keep going as it grows so slowly and can be crowded out by everything from cleavers to sycamores. Sycamores can grow 5 or 6 foot a year or more and with their big leaves and massive amount of seeds they seem to be able to crowd everything else out. I know that they are not native to Ireland and they really are a pest tree.

Sounds more like Ash Die back which sadly is taking out trees across the country. Any situation where grazers are excluded will allow certain plant species do better then others - since ivy is favoured by both wild and domestic animals it will obviously do better when they are excluded from an area for a prolonged period of time

minerleague · 29-07-2020 10:33am

Birdnuts wrote: »

Sounds more like Ash Die back which sadly is taking out trees across the country. Any situation where grazers are excluded will allow certain plant species do better then others - since ivy is favoured by both wild and domestic animals it will obviously do better when they are excluded from an area for a prolonged period of time

Have to agree with this, where electric fence is used outside of a hedge cattle cant eat fresh growth ( look what happens if a tree or branch falls, cattle will strip leaves and ivy in minutes ). I dont think i have ever seen ivy to cause a tree to die or fall but trees that do fall will have ivy on them maybe leading people to think one caused the other?

amadangomor · 29-07-2020 11:53am

Biscuitus wrote: »

I think people need to look a bit further than their own property. This is a nationwide problem, not just your neighbour Jim's ditch. Go to any public park and Ivy has taken over the trees and hedges. Any back road is smothered now with briars. Recently installed motorway fencing is a mess of briars now. I walked past some planted forestry in reclaimed land and all the outside trees were covered in Ivy preventing any leaves in the lower branches. Abandoned houses that you used to be clearly visible have disappeared under growth.

Briars and Ivy are growing at an alarming rate across the country cause of the warmer Winters and high amount of carbon in the air. Before the colder weather would mean them stop growing over the colder months but now they just power on through.

You can't just blame hedge management when there are factors completely out of our hands at play. When I was a kid I was given a job to snip some briars by a shed. Untouched 10 years later they had only grown a metre. Now when I cut briars they are back 2m in a year. Same goes for Ivy. There were lots of trees and areas of the farm I used to play in as a kid and there was never a glimpse of ivy. Now it's covering everything.

I don't think you understand what a healthy tree is nor how ivy works because this is a laughably incorrect statement.

Humans and global warming haven't though

It's Ivy, it is good for wildlife, especially pollinators.

It's not the blob :pac:

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Biscuitus · 29-07-2020 1:01pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

It sounds like you've too much time on your hands.

Because I take an interest in the alarming changes and challenges that face Ireland? What an odd comment or attempt at an insult.

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Briars and ivy have always grown at pretty similar rates to.

This is completely wrong. Talk to any farmer, contractor, gardener and even elderly person and they all say the same thing. There are horticulture and council meetings about these things and how they are going to tackle them in the future.

Deny climate change all you want but the evidence is there

Dinzee Conlee · 29-07-2020 5:28pm

minerleague wrote: »

[/B]

Have to agree with this, where electric fence is used outside of a hedge cattle cant eat fresh growth ( look what happens if a tree or branch falls, cattle will strip leaves and ivy in minutes ). I dont think i have ever seen ivy to cause a tree to die or fall but trees that do fall will have ivy on them maybe leading people to think one caused the other?

I think ivy does knock trees - it can form a heavy crown which makes the tree very prone to storm damage. See it especially on ash trees around here - and this has been happening long before ash dieback came to town...
Now, you could argue its the storm knocks the tree and not the ivy, but its the ivy on the tree that often causes the tree to be knocked...

As for ivy killing trees - on a ditch we have a hawthorn tree, with ivy on it. And every year the ivy grew more, so much so, that in the end, the hawthorn had no visible leaves or branches, it was just big bushes of ivy.
I cut some of the ivy off this year, and will do more next year.
I think the ivy has stunted the hawthorns growth, would it kill it - I am not sure, as its not a young tree. But if it was young, then I think it definitely would have.

patsy_mccabe · 29-07-2020 5:46pm

Ivy is like crack cocaine to cattle. They'd smoke if they could.

ShedTower · 29-07-2020 6:33pm

I cut some ivy off some great big beech and ash trees a few months back. Very satisfying to see them 'clear up'. Very impressive trees and look an awful lot better for it.
I didn't realise that ivy was as important for the bees, though there's certainly no shortage of it around here.

blackbox · 29-07-2020 6:43pm

Briars and brambles are two different plants. What they have in common is thorns!

memorystick · 29-07-2020 7:05pm

The flail cutter is hard on ditches.

wrangler · 29-07-2020 7:12pm

memorystick wrote: »

The flail cutter is hard on ditches.

Not if they're only cutting on years growth .

yosemitesam1 · 29-07-2020 7:30pm

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

I think ivy does knock trees - it can form a heavy crown which makes the tree very prone to storm damage. See it especially on ash trees around here - and this has been happening long before ash dieback came to town...
Now, you could argue its the storm knocks the tree and not the ivy, but its the ivy on the tree that often causes the tree to be knocked...

As for ivy killing trees - on a ditch we have a hawthorn tree, with ivy on it. And every year the ivy grew more, so much so, that in the end, the hawthorn had no visible leaves or branches, it was just big bushes of ivy.
I cut some of the ivy off this year, and will do more next year.
I think the ivy has stunted the hawthorns growth, would it kill it - I am not sure, as its not a young tree. But if it was young, then I think it definitely would have.

The problem with Hawthorne and blackthorn is that they really need to be coppiced or layed to maintain vigour long-term. The ivy is more a symptom of that lack of vigour than the cause

farmertipp · 29-07-2020 7:49pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

The problem with Hawthorne and blackthorn is that they really need to be coppiced or layed to maintain vigour long-term. The ivy is more a symptom of that lack of vigour than the cause

I have a neighbour whose whole place is yellow with ragwort . this yr it's worse than ever. why don't they enforce the law?

mp3guy · 29-07-2020 7:52pm

farmertipp wrote: »

I have a neighbour whose whole place is yellow with ragwort . this yr it's worse than ever. why don't they enforce the law?

Has it ever been enforced? Most roads I see ragwort is one of the most populous plants, councils don't care about public roads (blowing into everyone's private land), probably don't care about it anywhere else.

farawaygrass · 29-07-2020 9:20pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

The problem with Hawthorne and blackthorn is that they really need to be coppiced or layed to maintain vigour long-term. The ivy is more a symptom of that lack of vigour than the cause

I planted at hawthorn hedge for glas a few years who. Double rows and fence each side. I cut it back to about 6” above ground the autumn after sowing and cut it about 4” for the previous cut each year. This is the first year I don’t have to weed the grass between the plans. Anyhow, whst im wondering is, is the way I’m cutting it each year a better way than letting it grow high before laying/coppicing? It seems to be staying lovely and thick down low this way

Briars and Ivy taking over Ireland

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