Do you know anyone with a criminal record?

mick087 · 27-07-2020 03:26PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Opposite can be true. When the state is paying there's no issue with the cost or the numbers. Additional solicitor, barrister? No problem.

Chasing a private client who went to jail for years? Not such a straight forward affair.

Again, who are these legal eagles winning cases left right and center privately?

I would also point out that a prominent solicitor currently before the courts himself is using a legal aid colleague.

Would you rather we did not have legal aid for those who could not afford it? Yes the state must foot the bill if the individual is not able to afford legal aid.

No i would argue its not a straight forward affair chasing money owed.

I have not stated anything about legal eagles.

The prominent solicitor currently before the court using legal aid could we have more details please? it would be interesting to compare the outcome to similar cases.

weldoninhio · 27-07-2020 03:27PM

Know quite a few from massive drugs busts to murder to small time drug dealing. I'm very lucky i never got any. Was in college with the guy who recently shot the Gardai.

Immortal Starlight · 27-07-2020 03:29PM

Of course I do. It’s not that unusual.

ilovemuffin · 27-07-2020 03:30PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

But still, know any family, friends, coworkers who did stupid shit and were hit with the full force of the law?

It's not necessarily stupid shit. The law is not always fair. Smoking cannabis for example should not be outlawed. It's a plant medicine and can heal many things, and open a person up to life in whole new ways. I don't advocate strong skunk or leafy herb though as it can cause psychosis. But hashish/pollen has lots of CBD in it that can counter the often energetic and panicky/psychotic aspects of leafy green.

The Irish government should just decriminalize it, tax it, then move on.

fleet_admiral · 27-07-2020 03:46PM

I've worked in pubs since 96 so I've met a fair few. The pub I worked in in Harold's Cross was full of very dangerous people who were always 'on holiday'

Bobtheman · 27-07-2020 03:52PM

Rubberchikken wrote: »

No. Don't know anyone and I don't want to.
ignorance is bliss imo.

Stay away from bankers then.

Bobtheman · 27-07-2020 03:55PM

Criminal record often means what the middle class decide what's a crime. Lending to idiots and then taking the house off them after you got your bonus is not a crime.
Allowing insurance companies to ride the Irish public bareback is not a crime either it seems.
I could go on but I think most of you get the picture.

Harryy · 27-07-2020 04:01PM

I have in the North for political activities

27-07-2020 04:05PM

Harryy wrote: »

I have in the North for political activities

Was that before you defected from the UVF and went rogue?

Randy Archer · 27-07-2020 04:15PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Criminal record often means what the middle class decide what's a crime. Lending to idiots and then taking the house off them after you got your bonus is not a crime.
Allowing insurance companies to ride the Irish public bareback is not a crime either it seems.
I could go on but I think most of you get the picture.

Eh the “wurkers” parties , the true blue of the earth TDs play a role in legislating in criminal law . Of course, whether the rest of the House listens to them is another matter

But yep, you are right about what’s a crime or not

God , imagine if those headbangers actually led the law making procedure ? The horrors . It’s be a crime to make a profit

27-07-2020 04:23PM

mick087 wrote: »

Would you rather we did not have legal aid for those who could not afford it? Yes the state must foot the bill if the individual is not able to afford legal aid.

No i would argue its not a straight forward affair chasing money owed.

I have not stated anything about legal eagles.

The prominent solicitor currently before the court using legal aid could we have more details please? it would be interesting to compare the outcome to similar cases.

What are you talking about? Seriously.

You are the one trying to say that legal aid equals inferior defences. Not me. You back your argument.

You are actually agreeing with me about private clients and again I ask, based on your knowledge, who is a very good solicitor to employ for criminal defence?

If you don't know the solicitor in question, you don't know the legal system and those that work within it as it was common knowledge, he spoke about it himself and it was in the papers

27-07-2020 04:26PM

ilovemuffin wrote: »

It's not necessarily stupid shit. The law is not always fair. Smoking cannabis for example should not be outlawed. It's a plant medicine and can heal many things, and open a person up to life in whole new ways. I don't advocate strong skunk or leafy herb though as it can cause psychosis. But hashish/pollen has lots of CBD in it that can counter the often energetic and panicky/psychotic aspects of leafy green.

The Irish government should just decriminalize it, tax it, then move on.

Probable a good thing no one goes to jail for simple possession so.

I agree re legal and tax it but I don't think it will be the perfect solution that people expect. Illegal activity will still happen and criminals will still be involved.

The regulating of liquor and tobacco still takes a lot of time for Gardai and customs for example.

Randy Archer · 27-07-2020 04:28PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Just look at how many convictions there are and the type of defence arguments for general scumbaggery assault involving addicts and low lifes who spend their lives in and out of prison.

Then look at the defences put forward by the defence teams for the likes of the rich boys in the Club Anabel case. A gang of posh rich boys literally kicked the absolute head off of that poor young fella while he lay unconscious and defenceless in front of a crowd of about 50 onlooking witnesses and they more or less got away with it after making different appeals.

If you swapped the posh boys for 4 strung out Anto, Deco, Johno types with 50 previous convictions, do you think they would have gotten off as handy?

They kicked and stomped an 18 year old boy to death got away with no more than a slap on the wrist because of their privileged status, wealth, and no doubt somewhere along the line there were connections, probably indirect, with people in the legal and judicial sphere who probably aided and advised behind the scenes to help get them off the hook.

Your average street addict or "aww, i dunno why i dunnit" type low life simply isn't going to have the same high profile influential connections who can discreetly aid their cause from behind the scenes by having a word with their barrister friend who knows a judge who played rugby with them years ago type scenarios and getting their opinion on it that gets fed back to the defence team in a sort of "right, this is what you are gonna get the defence barrister to say" type thing.

If you have money and connections to powerful people. You can have a much better chance of wriggling your way out of a bad situation.

Re Anabel case. The option was murder or manslaughter. There was no evidence from the case, which the witnesses decide , that there was intention to kill. The people got charged and prosecuted for their culpability In the incident ; ie manslaughter and serious assault respectively

They used the same defences available to scumbags from Tallaght, had they done the same

As for the penalty for the convictions, the judge will take into account their background,Their age , previous records and their conduct during the incident and after it, what happened - was it an intentional affair or boys will be boys scrap that went horribly wrong

It’s gob****es in the media and Class warriors On sites like this of the time, that risked Brining the case into disrepute and making seriously prejudicial statements against the people who had yet to be tried.

You ask us to look at the defence of the Anabel case. Instead, you focus more on them being posh rugger buggers than the fact that lads from both fighting sides had a bit of drink in them, goaded each other, the victim got lippy and he got slapped and everyone lost control of themselves. Someone died. There wasn’t proof that it was intentional . Scum baggery year , but there’s a difference between murder and manslaughter .

The appeals were primarily based on the legality of the investigation By the Gardai ,after the event . The Gardai properly screwed up on the warrants , trying to be smart and fast and loose with the suspects . Evidence was unable to be submitted to the court because it was obtained illegally .

Those defences would have been available to Anto the Scum bag if the Gardai tried similar tactics

ANto’ s 50 plus convictions has ZERO relevancy on the court deciding whether Anto is guilty of the crime that he’s charged with, ZERO. IT only has relevancy if he’s convicted and when sentencing is considered

Talking utter nonsense .

bmc58 · 27-07-2020 04:29PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

I'd say the average boardsies would be hard pressed to know anyone with a record or anyone who has been to prison. The average middle class person isn't the one usually committing crimes.

But still, know any family, friends, coworkers who did stupid **** and were hit with the full force of the law?

Are you for real?I would class myself as an "average boardie" and I know a lad who did time.Many of these "average boardies" do go out in the real world from time to time.

TheBoyConor · 27-07-2020 04:38PM

Randy Archer wrote: »

The appeals were primarily based on the legality of the investigation By the Gardai ,after the event . The Gardai properly screwed up on the warrants , trying to be smart and fast and loose with the suspects . Evidence was unable to be submitted to the court because it was obtained illegally .

Those defences would have been available to Anto the Scum bag if the Gardai tried similar tactics

Yes, the the Gardai might have screwed up their investigation and of course the defence would be available to anyone, posh or junkie. But if we were not dealing with the Tarquin brigade, but with the Anto gang on free legal aid, would the defence bother to investigate or bring up whether there had been failings in gathering evidence. I mean, if they loose the case and he gets convicted, what difference does it make to the defence team. They still get paid by the DoJ. No skin off their nose, so why bother busting themselves with effort trying to find a way out when they could just say "yeah, poor upbrinigng, chaotic lifestyle, we are appealing for leniency and he'll write a letter of apology and make a donation to the court poor box". Meanwhile, all their hard effort and time spared there on the FLA cases is better spend defending private clients.

I wonder did the Club Anabel Head Kickers have free legal aid?

My point is, there is one way of applying the law for the poor and another for the rich and influential. Anyone who thinks we are all equal before the law is comically naïve.

mick087 · 27-07-2020 05:09PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What are you talking about? Seriously.

You are the one trying to say that legal aid equals inferior defences. Not me. You back your argument.

You are actually agreeing with me about private clients and again I ask, based on your knowledge, who is a very good solicitor to employ for criminal defence?

If you don't know the solicitor in question, you don't know the legal system and those that work within it as it was common knowledge, he spoke about it himself and it was in the papers

Parts i would may agree parts i would not.

I would not agree that the justice system is fair. I would argue it would favour the rich and powerful.

I would agree that getting clients to pay up may not always be easy.

No i dont know the particulars on this case hence i asked you for some more information.

ohnonotgmail · 27-07-2020 05:16PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yes, the the Gardai might have screwed up their investigation and of course the defence would be available to anyone, posh or junkie. But if we were not dealing with the Tarquin brigade, but with the Anto gang on free legal aid, would the defence bother to investigate or bring up whether there had been failings in gathering evidence. I mean, if they loose the case and he gets convicted, what difference does it make to the defence team. They still get paid by the DoJ. No skin off their nose, so why bother busting themselves with effort trying to find a way out when they could just say "yeah, poor upbrinigng, chaotic lifestyle, we are appealing for leniency and he'll write a letter of apology and make a donation to the court poor box". Meanwhile, all their hard effort and time spared there on the FLA cases is better spend defending private clients.

I wonder did the Club Anabel Head Kickers have free legal aid?

My point is, there is one way of applying the law for the poor and another for the rich and influential. Anyone who thinks we are all equal before the law is comically naïve.

The difference it makes is that future prospective clients will pick a different solicitor on the legal aid panel so they will lose work. what solicitor would want a reputation as one that doesnt do a good job?

27-07-2020 05:40PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Yes, the the Gardai might have screwed up their investigation and of course the defence would be available to anyone, posh or junkie. But if we were not dealing with the Tarquin brigade, but with the Anto gang on free legal aid, would the defence bother to investigate or bring up whether there had been failings in gathering evidence. I mean, if they loose the case and he gets convicted, what difference does it make to the defence team. They still get paid by the DoJ. No skin off their nose, so why bother busting themselves with effort trying to find a way out when they could just say "yeah, poor upbrinigng, chaotic lifestyle, we are appealing for leniency and he'll write a letter of apology and make a donation to the court poor box". Meanwhile, all their hard effort and time spared there on the FLA cases is better spend defending private clients.

I wonder did the Club Anabel Head Kickers have free legal aid?

My point is, there is one way of applying the law for the poor and another for the rich and influential. Anyone who thinks we are all equal before the law is comically naïve.

Are you under the belief that Criminal cases of murder are on a no win no fee basis when private?

27-07-2020 05:45PM

mick087 wrote: »

I would not agree that the justice system is fair. I would argue it would favour the rich and powerful.

I know you would but you are basing it on nothing. You don't actually know as you have no experience within.

Your knowledge comes from the TV where we watch overburdened public defender lawyers for entertainment.

In Ireland the only one overburdened is the prosecution. There's no public defender, they are all private. The only question is who pays them.

mick087 · 27-07-2020 06:30PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I know you would but you are basing it on nothing. You don't actually know as you have no experience within.

Your knowledge comes from the TV where we watch overburdened public defender lawyers for entertainment.

In Ireland the only one overburdened is the prosecution. There's no public defender, they are all private. The only question is who pays them.

I would base this on things that i have witnessed.

I would not be a fan of tv to be honest.

Maybe the prosecution is overburdened and maybe it's time for a full review of the justice system and wealth it creates in parts of the said sytem.

What would you think of a capped salary for solicitors clerks barristers judges etc? If we could have a more equal pay strcture, not only for those involved with the justice system but those who enforce the law, then maybe we could have a more equal and fair society as well better fairer justice system.

27-07-2020 06:33PM

I know a few,who would

Everything from drunk and disorderly to capital murder

A young lad,i know got caught with 50 grand of coke,during lockdown....so i guess he's going away for few years too

Its an easy,easy life to get sucked into,wouldnt judge anyone too harshly for it....im just thankful,i never did.....i see lads i went to school with,lives are ruined with it now

mr_fegelien · 27-07-2020 06:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I know a few,who would

Everything from drunk and disorderly to a very distant relative who got done for capital murder

A young lad,i know got caught with 50 grand of coke,during lockdown....so i guess he's going away for few years too

Its an easy,easy life to get sucked into,wouldnt judge anyone too harshly for it....im just thankful,i never did.....i see lads i went to school with,lives are ruined with it now

What's an easy life to get sucked into? Drugs or crime?

Can I ask, did you grow up in a rough area in Ireland or middle class/upper middle class?

Strumms · 27-07-2020 06:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I know a few,who would

Everything from drunk and disorderly to a very distant relative who got done for capital murder

A young lad,i know got caught with 50 grand of coke,during lockdown....so i guess he's going away for few years too

Its an easy,easy life to get sucked into,wouldnt judge anyone too harshly for it....im just thankful,i never did.....i see lads i went to school with,lives are ruined with it now

I think education for some time has been pretty good and proactive in flagging up the dangers and immorality of the drugs trade. Anyone caught with a load of coke, a class A drug, for whatever purpose be it manufacture, sale, distribution, use or just ‘minding it’..I think it’s fairly obvious that they know the difference between cocaine and a few boxes of counterfeit cigarettes. If we just end up writing hall passes for everyone because of whatever background etc, whatever hardships they suffer, no, sorry personal responsibility...

27-07-2020 06:47PM

mr_fegelien wrote: »

What's an easy life to get sucked into? Drugs or crime?

Yes....its hard to describe it really.....kinda like having kids,theres a whole lifestyle that geos with it,people are unaware of fully (terrible comparison i know)

Can I ask, did you grow up in a rough area in Ireland or middle class/upper middle class?

I grew up.in normal area??,lad in my class in national school,family regularly appears in irelands top 50 richest families......while others parent work as binmen........it deosnt matter,who/where your from,anyone can become caught up bad sh1t

bmc58 · 27-07-2020 07:14PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Yes ,myself

Lost a case ,foolishly didn't appeal, paid the fine ,conviction struck out following the fine being paid but it would go against me were I to find myself before the courts again

Happened fifteen years ago

So you know yourself! Not really the question the OP asked.

Demonique · 27-07-2020 07:27PM

Augeo wrote: »

I know a few, armed robbery, larceny, burglary, dangerous driving, criminal damage and assault. Most have drug convictions too of course.
One chap was murdered over 10 years ago.

Most of them appear decent enough lads to be fair ........... a few are total scrotes too of course.

I wouldnt describe anyone who commits armed robbery, larceny, burglary, dangerous driving, criminal damage or assault as fairly decent

Demonique · 27-07-2020 07:38PM

Frankx wrote: »

I'm on the spectrum myself

Autistic people communicate more telepathically

We recognise emotions but don't process them the same as others

Im autistic myself, this is the first thing I've heard about us communicating telepathically? You mean so say if I think hard enough at my snakes I'll be able to tell them not to poop and piddle on me?

Agree with the rest of your post

Mad_maxx · 27-07-2020 07:46PM

bmc58 wrote: »

So you know yourself! Not really the question the OP asked.

Yes , i know myself pretty well

27-07-2020 08:27PM

mick087 wrote: »

I would base this on things that i have witnessed.

I would not be a fan of tv to be honest.

Maybe the prosecution is overburdened and maybe it's time for a full review of the justice system and wealth it creates in parts of the said sytem.

What would you think of a capped salary for solicitors clerks barristers judges etc? If we could have a more equal pay strcture, not only for those involved with the justice system but those who enforce the law, then maybe we could have a more equal and fair society as well better fairer justice system.

Caps exist when they work for the public sector. Private sector, caps are against free trade and competition. If you are good, up should be paid appropriately.

Caps in regards fees exist albeit loose. Hand on heart, I don't know how the cap allows for being a great solicitor or a bad one. Probable just means the big guns can charge at the top of the cap.

I think legal aid should be limited but that's against your argument. My reasoning for that is simple, because it's a gravy train, they look for remand dates they don't need to charge more whereas if it's a private client, the client won't accept that.

ohnonotgmail · 27-07-2020 08:33PM

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Caps exist when they work for the public sector. Private sector, caps are against free trade and competition. If you are good, up should be paid appropriately.

Caps in regards fees exist albeit loose. Hand on heart, I don't know how the cap allows for being a great solicitor or a bad one. Probable just means the big guns can charge at the top of the cap.

I think legal aid should be limited but that's against your argument. My reasoning for that is simple, because it's a gravy train, they look for remand dates they don't need to charge more whereas if it's a private client, the client won't accept that.

there is a set fee schedule for legal aid work. do you have a source that backs up the part in bold?

Do you know anyone with a criminal record?

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