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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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    #272
    ErnestBorgnine
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    Salt of the earth is great and all... but it's not greatness!

    Zero tour de france wins. He had the potential, but never got the job done.

    Roche at least got one win. He more than likely doped, but then so did everyone else. (Probably including Kelly too, as one of his teammates was popped for something early on and banned)

    But I agree with others, cycling is filthy as fcuk... there is no integrity in that sport. So you cannot pick a cyclist as our greatest ever! Not if you like any degree of respectability in your sports stars!

    Agreed. I'd argue rugby, boxing, athletics & even soccer are filthy also.


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    #273
    bertiebomber
    Registered Users Posts: 728 ✭✭✭bertiebomber


    Tony McCoy


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    #274
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    John Giles was a sublime passer of the ball with a superb first touch, a lot like cesc fabregas in style

    Keane was a classic midfield General, a great leader of men through sheer brute force and will,there was more drive in him than total football

    It kind of annoys when Keane gets typecast as nothing more than a midfield general... (I know you didn't say that, but many people do)

    He was a very underrated passer of the ball. Wayne Rooney said he was the best passer he played with, despite playing with players like Scholes.

    He may not have had the same technique as someone like a paul scholes, but his passing was crisp and accurate and he very rarely gave the ball away. And wasn't one of these sideways and backward merchants either... he looked to get the ball into the strikers feet early and then support them with lung-busting runs into the box!

    In his early days he was an offensive player, later on he became one of the best defensive holding midfielders. You could ask him to do anything in midfield. He was more well rounded than players like Scholes or Fabregas.

    I still think he should have won more Champions Leagues though! :pac:


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    #275
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    Salt of the earth is great and all... but it's not greatness!

    Zero tour de france wins. He had the potential, but never got the job done.

    Roche at least got one win. He more than likely doped, but then so did everyone else. (Probably including Kelly too, as one of his teammates was popped for something early on and banned)

    But I agree with others, cycling is filthy as fcuk... there is no integrity in that sport. So you cannot pick a cyclist as our greatest ever! Not if you like any degree of respectability in your sports stars!
    cycling is a lot more than the TDF . its just that's the one that is highlighted . Kellys tour of spain win was every bit as hard earned


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    #276
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    wexandproud wrote: »
    cycling is a lot more than the TDF . its just that's the one that is highlighted . Kellys tour of spain win was every bit as hard earned

    Tour de France is far more important than the Tour of Spain.


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    #277
    Pauliedragon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    begbysback wrote: »
    He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.
    Eric Cantona was very good at kicking people in the head especially at Selhurst park. Maybe MMA was his calling.


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    #278
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,098 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    The complete lack of credibility that cycling has (and rightly so) will always preclude somebody from getting the title of greatness and if its ok to rule out a rugby player because Rugby isnt a global sport, then its equally ok to rule out a cyclist. Only 13 countries have a top level cycling team in 2020.

    Ah FFS.
    Yes cycling has been plagued with drugs scandals, but then again what hasn't had drugs involement.

    Oh wait soccer.
    But when you look closer you find that there has been a lot drugs, for instance Seria A.
    And I aint talking about Diego and snow.

    And Spanish authorities squashed investigation into the doping ring that Armstrong and the boys were using even though cyclists accounted for only something like 60% of the dopers.
    Maybe if they looked too hard the Spanish giants and proponents of the beautiful game might be found out. :rolleyes:

    And if bring in doping you have discount athletics as well.
    Sure weren't top tennis players at it.

    And if we are going to bring in the cr** about only counting sports that are played running around and in every country in the world you totally discount all the achievements of some our most fantastic sports people.

    It looks like you are setting it up that only a soccer player can be deemed our greatest sports person. :rolleyes:
    ErnestBorgnine wrote: »
    Oh aye yeah. Don't know why i said "was", probably because i've not heard much from him since he retired.

    If only he hadn't chosen the wrong gear in the WC in '89!

    You will hear his dulcet tones on Eurosport.
    a very cool kid wrote: »
    Could you imagine the relief when it was burst/lanced that night??

    He was out of the tour from what I remember so probably in very bad mood.


    And now to really stir the pot and get a certain type of poster in a latter.

    Eoin Morgan. :D:D

    Captain of world cup winning side.
    Plays in a sport played by millions and enjoyed by over a billion people worldwide.


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    #279
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    Tour de France is far more important than the Tour of Spain.

    Cycling has 3 Grand Tours, France, Spain Italy (Le Tour, Vuelta, Giro).

    TdF is like Premiership title with the Vuelta and Giro probably being comparable to cup competitions (say Giro FA Cup and Vuelta League Cup)

    But, many cyclists and cycling fans view the Spring Classics and even World Championships as massive in their own right. Some cyclists even focus primarily on the classics and while they might ride a Grand Tour, they do so really only focusing on maybe a stage win or to support their main rider or maybe a jersey classification more so than going for outright win.

    One of the highest earning riders a few years ago was Philippe Gilbert and his star power was mostly because of his prowess in the classics and he never finished higher than 32nd in a GT.


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    #280
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Cycling has 3 Grand Tours, France, Spain Italy (Le Tour, Vuelta, Giro).

    TdF is like Premiership title with the Vuelta and Giro probably being comparable to cup competitions (say Giro FA Cup and Vuelta League Cup)

    But, many cyclists and cycling fans view the Spring Classics and even World Championships as massive in their own right. Some cyclists even focus primarily on the classics and while they might ride a Grand Tour, they do so really only focusing on maybe a stage win or to support their main rider or maybe a jersey classification more so than going for outright win.

    One of the highest earning riders a few years ago was Philippe Gilbert and his star power was mostly because of his prowess in the classics and he never finished higher than 32nd in a GT.

    That's nice...

    But the Tour de France is still by far the most important and prestigious.

    And Kelly badly wanted a win in it, and was very disappointed at the end of his career that he never achieved it. And he had the talent to do it too.

    It's a bit like Roy Keane never playing in a Champions League final - when someone like Maldini has played in 6... Everyone knows it's significance if you know the sport in question.

    Everyone who knows something about cycling, knows the significance of winning the Tour de France. (and the significance of failing to win it) :)


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    #281
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    jmayo wrote: »
    And now to really stir the pot and get a certain type of poster in a latter.

    Eoin Morgan. :D:D

    Captain of world cup winning side.
    Plays in a sport played by millions and enjoyed by over a billion people worldwide.

    One of the great Anglo-Irishmen of all time, surely?? :D

    Do many of these billion fans reside in one country by any chance? :p


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    #282
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,518 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    Everyone who knows something about cycling, knows the significance of winning the Tour de France. (and the significance of failing to win it) :)

    That is patently wrong. People who focus on TdF yellow jersey victories don't understand the full scope or popularity of the sport or what motivates those who participate.

    Your argument could be used (which it is by many) to suggest that Messi isn't the greatest player to play football because he hasn't won the WC.

    Not a valid argument in my view.


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    #283
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    John Treacy's marathon silver medal in '84 was an unbelievable achievement.

    Ronnie Delaney won gold in '56 when the 1500 was the marque track event long before the 100m.

    Sonia O'Sullivan dominated women's middle distance for most of the 90s.


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    #284
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    partyguinness wrote: »
    John Treacy's marathon silver medal in '84 was an unbelievable achievement.

    Ronnie Delaney won gold in '56 when the 1500 was the marque track event long before the 100m.

    Sonia O'Sullivan dominated women's middle distance for most of the 90s.

    For me, Sonia is our greatest. She dominated womens middle distance and was robbed of more world championship gold by the doped Chinese.


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    #285
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    crossman47 wrote: »
    For me, Sonia is our greatest. She dominated womens middle distance and was robbed of more world championship gold by the doped Chinese.


    Indeed.


    Inexperience caught her in 1992
    1993 WC completely cheated out of it- even the Chinese runners made a voluntary confession year later but World Athletics just brushed it under carpet
    1996- basically sick and went tits up..
    2000- silver medal even if she was a little past her best but even then the Romanian gold medalist was caught doping later on.


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    #286
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    On the Roy Keane Saipan debate. McCarthy amd Keane both should have handled it better.

    1. Did Keane need to give an interview to the IT?
    2. McCarthy went off and held a team meeting and decided to round on Keane in front of the squad- that was mistake numero uno.

    McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. McCarthy was the manager- his job was to manage. That was not good management.


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    #287
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Your having a laugh, the other 3 are only legends by Irish Standards. Keane is a legend by world standards, he's one of the best players to ever play in English football.


    You are having a laugh and showin up your own age:

    Giles
    The lynchpin of the great Leeds team from 65 to 75 which was one of the best teams in world football and the defo the best team in England and should have won way more.

    Brady
    Already regarded as probably the most gifted player in English football in the late 1970s, he was signed by Juventus and was one of the more successful foreign players in Serie A during the 80s. Serie A in the 80s was where all the superstars played. Brady more than held his own. Only Platini (3 time Ballon d'Or) was deemed good enough to replace him at Juventus

    McGrath

    A ****ing legend. A class act.

    The major difference between Keane and the rest was exposure.


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    #288
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Tell me how wrote: »
    That is patently wrong. People who focus on TdF yellow jersey victories don't understand the full scope or popularity of the sport or what motivates those who participate.

    Your argument could be used (which it is by many) to suggest that Messi isn't the greatest player to play football because he hasn't won the WC.

    Not a valid argument in my view.

    You're entitled to your view... but your view is dead wrong!

    The Tour de France is the most important race - by a considerable margin!

    The other tours don't even come close.

    But who cares anyway? It's only cycling... it's a fringe sport full of drugged up cheaters!

    And Lance Armstrong was the greatest of them all... in a sport full of cheaters, he was the best of the lot. Absolutely scandalous the way he was used as a scapegoat! Bunch of hypocrites... throwing your best guy under the bus like that! Says all you want to know about the character of many in the cycling fraternity! :p
    crossman47 wrote: »
    For me, Sonia is our greatest. She dominated womens middle distance and was robbed of more world championship gold by the doped Chinese.

    You don't dominate middle distance running unless you show up in the olympics. Sonia flopped in the olympics!
    partyguinness wrote: »
    Indeed.


    Inexperience caught her in 1992
    1993 WC completely cheated out of it- even the Chinese runners made a voluntary confession year later but World Athletics just brushed it under carpet
    1996- basically sick and went tits up..
    2000- silver medal even if she was a little past her best but even then the Romanian gold medalist was caught doping later on.

    1996 - Bottled it just like many others - "stomach problems" aka couldn't handle the pressure!

    2000 - She wasn't passed her best - she was actually in her prime for those olympics - or should have been at 30 years old. But she took a year off before the olympics to have a baby... so while her rivals were training their butts off, she had her feet up for 9 months being pregnant. Not very clever!


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    #289
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Only one winner. Tell the rest to come back when they have their own action figure.

    936c91792eea46bb9bb7ffb10eb2d7belg.jpg


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    #290
    Truthvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    partyguinness wrote: »
    On the Roy Keane Saipan debate. McCarthy amd Keane both should have handled it better.

    1. Did Keane need to give an interview to the IT?
    2. McCarthy went off and held a team meeting and decided to round on Keane in front of the squad- that was mistake numero uno.

    McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. McCarthy was the manager- his job was to manage. That was not good management.

    Why? because Lord Keane had an entitlement to special private attention? He was meant to be in a team - though he never understood that.

    Me me me all the way. Mick McCarthy has more class and decency in his little finger than Keane. Plus he gave 100% as a player every time. When the time came Roy gave 0%. Walked his dog.


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    #291
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Truthvader wrote: »
    Why? because Lord Keane had an entitlement to special private attention? He was meant to be in a team - though he never understood that.

    Me me me all the way. Mick McCarthy has more class and decency in his little finger than Keane. Plus he gave 100% as a player every time. When the time came Roy gave 0%. Walked his dog.

    In fairness, it does kind of prove he does have loyalty though!

    ... to his dog! :pac:


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    #292
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    It kind of annoys when Keane gets typecast as nothing more than a midfield general... (I know you didn't say that, but many people do)

    He was a very underrated passer of the ball. Wayne Rooney said he was the best passer he played with, despite playing with players like Scholes.

    He may not have had the same technique as someone like a paul scholes, but his passing was crisp and accurate and he very rarely gave the ball away. And wasn't one of these sideways and backward merchants either... he looked to get the ball into the strikers feet early and then support them with lung-busting runs into the box!

    In his early days he was an offensive player, later on he became one of the best defensive holding midfielders. You could ask him to do anything in midfield. He was more well rounded than players like Scholes or Fabregas.

    I still think he should have won more Champions Leagues though! :pac:

    I know he could pass but he wasn't pirlo

    Keane wasn't someone with finesse, he was a brute who could play a bit


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    #293
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    I know he could pass but he wasn't pirlo

    Keane wasn't someone with finesse, he was a brute who could play a bit

    Or you could say, Pirlo was no Roy Keane! :)

    Personally I thought Keane controlled games. And not just through tackles or barking orders... he controlled the tempo of games with his passing.

    Imagine if you had two Pirlo's in your midfield... but no Gattuso. You'd be torn apart against certain teams. Now imagine having two Roy Keane's in your midfield. Case closed! ;)


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    #294
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,098 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    partyguinness wrote: »
    On the Roy Keane Saipan debate. McCarthy amd Keane both should have handled it better.

    1. Did Keane need to give an interview to the IT?
    2. McCarthy went off and held a team meeting and decided to round on Keane in front of the squad- that was mistake numero uno.

    McCarthy should have had it out with Keane in private. McCarthy was the manager- his job was to manage. That was not good management.

    Keane is the type of guy who could go into a lift on his own and still have a fight.

    Actually Mick should have adopted old style tactics and taken him around back and beat the shyte out of him.
    Keane would have understood and probably respected that.

    Anyway for anyone that talks about his tough man persona on the pitch, please look up Giles.
    He was considered one of the toughest and dirtiest when the game was full of them.
    He would scare the shyte out of likes of Keane and the other so called hard man of the 80s, Jones.

    And Giles was doing rabonas when kicking the ball was like kicking a bowling ball and few outside the Brazilians and Argies were doing it.


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    #295
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    What a stupid argument. How many at a soccer world cup can realistically win it? one of 3? one of 4?

    Hardly a stupid argument .the soccer world cup has been won by 5 different teams the last 5 times. You mightn't agree with me but that doesn't make it stupid.


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    #296
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    jmayo wrote: »
    Keane is the type of guy who could go into a lift on his own and still have a fight.

    Actually Mick should have adopted old style tactics and taken him around back and beat the shyte out of him.
    Keane would have understood and probably respected that.

    Anyway for anyone that talks about his tough man persona on the pitch, please look up Giles.
    He was considered one of the toughest and dirtiest when the game was full of them.
    He would scare the shyte out of likes of Keane and the other so called hard man of the 80s, Jones.

    And Giles was doing rabonas when kicking the ball was like kicking a bowling ball and few outside the Brazilians and Argies were doing it.

    His Leeds team underachieved. They should have won much more than they did... Giles needs to shoulder some of the blame for that.

    I don't really care who was harder - irrelevant really. What matters is their winning mentality and who was more hungry to win. I think Keane takes that one from Giles - but not by much.

    Keane's workrate could have gotten the better of almost anyone - he basically outworked Zidane and Davids in that famous Semi final against Juventus. Despite both those players being technically a bit better. And he did it with Nicky Butt playing alongside him - which many people forget.


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    #297
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,098 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    tritriagain wrote: »
    Hardly a stupid argument .the soccer world cup has been won by 5 different teams the last 5 times. You mightn't agree with me but that doesn't make it stupid.

    Each of those has won it before.
    The only new team to get to a final in last 20 years has been Croatia.
    France got to final for first time in 98 and Argentina got to first final in 78.
    But realistically there are only about 5/6 teams that can win it.
    Uruguay will probably never win it again.
    Hopefully England never do it and the Dutch have failed three times already.


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    #298
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,098 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    His Leeds team underachieved. They should have won much more than they did... Giles needs to shoulder some of the blame for that.

    I don't really care who was harder - irrelevant really. What matters is their winning mentality and who was more hungry to win. I think Keane takes that one from Giles - but not by much.

    Keane's workrate could have gotten the better of almost anyone - he basically outworked Zidane and Davids in that famous Semi final against Juventus. Despite both those players being technically a bit better. And he did it with Nicky Butt playing alongside him - which many people forget.

    Yeah yeah yeah.
    We get it, Keane was a better player because he won more. :rolleyes:

    Seriously did you just say that Davids and ZIDANE were TECHNICALLY A BIT BETTER than Keane? :eek:

    Are you related to him or something?

    Giles was part of a team robbed in a European cup final in 1975 where they had two stone wall penalties and a goal ruled out.

    Those were the days when all types of shyte went on.
    Just like Brady and a very good Irish team didn't get to a WC finals because of dodgy reffing.

    BTW the Leeds fans did get up to a fair amount of rioting in Paris as revenge.


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    #299
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,156 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    jmayo wrote: »
    Each of those has won it before.
    The only new team to get to a final in last 20 years has been Croatia.
    France got to final for first time in 98 and Argentina got to first final in 78.
    But realistically there are only about 5/6 teams that can win it.
    Uruguay will probably never win it again.
    Hopefully England never do it and the Dutch have failed three times already.

    Im not arguing that soccer is more competitive than rugby. I much prefer rugby. However all the rugby wc winners have been the tri nation teams bar once when england won.


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    #300
    Dank Janniels
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭Dank Janniels


    Declan Moffatt


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    #301
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    jmayo wrote: »
    Yeah yeah yeah.
    We get it, Keane was a better player because he won more. :rolleyes:

    Seriously did you just say that Davids and ZIDANE were TECHNICALLY A BIT BETTER than Keane? :eek:

    Are you related to him or something?

    Giles was part of a team robbed in a European cup final in 1975 where they had two stone wall penalties and a goal ruled out.

    Those were the days when all types of shyte went on.
    Just like Brady and a very good Irish team didn't get to a WC finals because of dodgy reffing.

    BTW the Leeds fans did get up to a fair amount of rioting in Paris as revenge.

    He was better than Giles, because he was hungrier to win more... not necessarily because he won more. His mentality was stronger than Giles.

    You can say what you like about Leeds being robbed... but that's only one season. Why did they not get back to any more finals? That Bayern team won 3 in a row...

    Giles won 2 league titles. He definitely should have won much more than that, and won more in Europe too! (He admits this himself btw - not bad luck underachievement)

    And yes, Davids and Zidane had more technical skill than Keane... but it didn't matter, because Keane could outwork you if you had a bit more skill. Which is something I always liked about him. If you can get the better of Zidane by outworking him... then you are a serious talent. Because Zidane was a genius!

    I've also never seen any other player take the ball off Zidane as much as Keane did. Man Utd played Juventus on many occasions in the 90's... Keane always seemed to be able to get the ball off him. Zidane was one of the most difficult players to dispossess, the ball was practically glued to his feet with such great technique. That says a lot about Keane's ability at his best.


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