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Masks

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Comments

  • #5732
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,614 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    bodhrandude wrote: »
    Of course wearing masks cuts the risk, but unless you've got goggles too the eyes are still exposed and c19 droplets can still enter through there. I just thought I would point that out.

    You're approaching it from the angle of equipment to protect yourself - and yes, goggles would help. And that is important for healthcare \ people providing care to infected patients.
    But the main reason for mandatory masks in the general public isn't to protect the wearer - but rather to stop them from emitting c19 droplets in the first place.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #5733
    dalyboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    timetogo1 wrote: »
    What's your definition?
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science

    Rough breakdown of science in my understanding.
    Observe a phenomenon
    Hypothesis
    Test your variables
    Come to a SOLID conclusion as to the cause and effect.

    From what I can see based on my understanding is so called science has not gone past the hypothesis stage of an experiment.
    Would you agree ?


  • #5734
    Sconsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    No: other
    dalyboy wrote: »
    Ahh , so more links to modelling and half assed “studies”. I forgot that the word science was redefined recently. My bad

    Modelling and studies....madness! how could this be SCIENCE, your bad indeed.


  • #5735
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    dalyboy wrote: »
    Have you ever heard of shifting the burden of proof fallacy. The burden of proof lies with the pro mask wearers on this issue. So far hear say and hunches are all that’s offered by pro side. Simple question , where is the SCIENCE behind the claims they protect against the virus ?

    So if you’re as familiar with the fallacy as you pretend to be you’d know if someone says,
    paw patrol wrote:
    The science is that against the virus the masks are not effective.

    That the Burden of Proof becomes theirs to prove that the science is that against the virus the masks are not effective.
    dalyboy wrote: »
    Ahh , so more links to modelling and half assed “studies”. I forgot that the word science was redefined recently. My bad

    I’m also sure you’ve heard of special pleading and shifting goalposts fallacies :rolleyes:

    Tell us then what special standard of study do you require to prove the science?
    dalyboy wrote: »
    Rough breakdown of science in my understanding.
    Observe a phenomenon
    Hypothesis
    Test your variables
    Come to a SOLID conclusion as to the cause and effect.

    From what I can see based on my understanding is so called science has not gone past the hypothesis stage of an experiment.
    Would you agree ?

    Nevermind I think I see the problem here. And it’s not the sciences, it’s your clear lack of willingness to accept how research works.


  • #5736
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,614 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    dalyboy wrote: »
    Rough breakdown of science in my understanding.
    Observe a phenomenon
    Hypothesis
    Test your variables
    Come to a SOLID conclusion as to the cause and effect.

    From what I can see based on my understanding is so called science has not gone past the hypothesis stage of an experiment.
    Would you agree ?

    You'll have to tell what kind of experiment you have in mind that will convince you, over and above the studies already linked.
    Does it involve volunteers who will be subjected to coughs and sneezes by coronavirus infected patients who aren't wearing a mask.
    Already linked have been numerous studies showing how different face coverings reduce droplets of respiratory viruses.

    This is a new pandemic. We don't have a vaccine.
    The highly trained scientists at the CDC and similar organisations review the experimental studies and real world data and make their recommendations - that's part of science too. Science is not just experiments. When in doubt they adopt the precautionary principles.
    We don't have time to wait for more people to die.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • #5737
    rob316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Had fitting work to do in a retail environment today, started wearing a mask, found it quite uncomfortable and kept fogging up my glasses. Swapped out for a visor, far better, couldn't even feel it on me. Think if I'm just running into the shop, mask is fine but for anything longer I'll wear the visor.


  • #5738
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    rob316 wrote: »
    Had fitting work to do in a retail environment today, started wearing a mask, found it quite uncomfortable and kept fogging up my glasses. Swapped out for a visor, far better, couldn't even feel it on me. Think if I'm just running into the shop, mask is fine but for anything longer I'll wear the visor.

    You have to adjust the nose of your mask behind the bridge of your glasses and also crack a bit of a vent at your chin, that humid airflow then gets redirected toward your neck


  • #5739
    rob316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Overheal wrote: »
    You have to adjust the nose of your mask behind the bridge of your glasses and also crack a bit of a vent at your chin, that humid airflow then gets redirected toward your neck

    Cheers

    I'll look for something better instead of glorified Y fronts though!


  • #5740
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    dalyboy wrote: »
    Ahh , so more links to modelling and half assed “studies”. I forgot that the word science was redefined recently. My bad

    So you've gone through those 70 linked studies in just over 45 mins? Not bad going, well done. Thats your credibility shot up in my eyes anyway


  • #5741
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,614 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    rob316 wrote: »
    Had fitting work to do in a retail environment today, started wearing a mask, found it quite uncomfortable and kept fogging up my glasses. Swapped out for a visor, far better, couldn't even feel it on me. Think if I'm just running into the shop, mask is fine but for anything longer I'll wear the visor.

    Yeah I had fogging up troubles.

    Try to breathe out through your nose.
    Fit the metal piece around your nose.
    Some people put a tissue under the mask also on the nose under the glasses.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • #5742
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    rob316 wrote: »
    Cheers

    I'll look for something better instead of glorified Y fronts though!

    The one I have is a double layered with a metal nose bridge in it. Something to conform to the nose is a big change from the basic ones that just blast you in the eyeballs with turbulence


  • #5743
    Sconsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    No: other
    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    So you've gone through those 70 linked studies in just over 45 mins? Not bad going, well done. Thats your credibility shot up in my eyes anyway

    11:45 I pointed him to the link

    11:57 he declares it all rubbish and not his kind of science

    He could not have even read the titles of the papers let alone any of the content.


  • #5744
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,932 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Sconsey wrote: »
    11:45 I pointed him to the link

    11:57 he declares it all rubbish and not his kind of science

    He could not have even read the titles of the papers let alone any of the content.

    So he did it all in only 12 minutes? Ive underestimated him


  • #5745
    j@utis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭j@utis


    No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend
    The only way masks can work in public closed places is to put people off visiting them places which will result in more social distancing which in turn is the most effective tool against this virus. Since "retail therapy" has turned into "retail nightmare" I haven't really put my foot into any shop, cafe etc place, unless it's a question of life or death [so very unlikely]. And I'm not the only one.
    On the other hand, if supermarkets are considered being very low risk in catching the virus, wearing mask while doing your grocery shop will make next to no difference [I work in one and observe great amount of people wearing masks incorrectly or constantly fidgeting around their face -what's the point???]. Public transport is different story because you're stationary sharing the same space with other people for prolonged period time, so yeah, mask yourself up there, that includes cafes, restaurants, pubs, theaters, every where you're place put [best is to avoid those places, let them go out business who cares, all we care about is that virus is dead [sarcasm warning]].


  • #5746
    rob316
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    j@utis wrote: »
    The only way masks can work in public closed places is to put people off visiting them places which will result in more social distancing which in turn is the most effective tool against this virus. Since "retail therapy" has turned into "retail nightmare" I haven't really put my foot into any shop, cafe etc place, unless it's a question of life or death [so very unlikely]. And I'm not the only one.
    On the other hand, if supermarkets are considered being very low risk in catching the virus, wearing mask while doing your grocery shop will make next to no difference [I work in one and observe great amount of people wearing masks incorrectly or constantly fidgeting around their face -what's the point???]. Public transport is different story because you're stationary sharing the same space with other people for prolonged period time, so yeah, mask yourself up there, that includes cafes, restaurants, pubs, theaters, every where you're place put [best is to avoid those places, let them go out business who cares, all we care about is that virus is dead [sarcasm warning]].

    I was hoping it would reduce the amount of social distancing if its proven to be working, allowing businesses to get back to more normal levels.
    Social distancing will need to be reduced by the holiday season, or retail will be finished.


  • #5747
    j@utis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭j@utis


    No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend
    rob316 wrote: »
    I was hoping it would reduce the amount of social distancing if its proven to be working, allowing businesses to get back to more normal levels.
    Social distancing will need to be reduced by the holiday season, or retail will be finished.

    Result wil be the same if people visit shops less as a result of an unpleasant experiences, we will be able to say regardless that masks are "working"...


  • #5748
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,614 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Remembers masks apply to all retail, not just supermarkets - supermarkets may be on the lower end of the risk for retail as they tend to be large airy spaces. Think of old bookstores, clothes shops, charity shops etc.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #5749
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    Some are more cramped than others, like Aldi, but yeah.


  • #5750
    copeyhagen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,527 ✭✭✭copeyhagen


    In Spain on holidays (the devil, burn him), masks mandatory everywhere. You walk into a pub or restaurant, they give you hand sanitizer going in, you wear your mask until you get to the table, then you can remove. Need to bring kids to toilet? Mask on. Was strange at first but you get used to it. Spanish have been 100% cooperating with it too.

    Shops have no limited numbers, but the masks are required, so feels safer than at home tbh.

    Looking at all the empty businesses here, I can't see how they can get back to any sort of normality after this.


  • #5751
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend
    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Remembers masks apply to all retail, not just supermarkets - supermarkets may be on the lower end of the risk for retail as they tend to be large airy spaces. Think of old bookstores, clothes shops, charity shops etc.

    So why not just make masks mandatory in shops under x square ft.


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  • #5752
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    GT89 wrote: »
    So why not just make masks mandatory in shops under x square ft.

    It creates an unfair market in favor of big box stores.

    The Spanish have this the simplest, have masks everywhere instead of creating a tapestry of exclusions and loopholes and yeahbut's.


  • #5753
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend
    Overheal wrote: »
    It creates an unfair market in favor of big box stores.

    The Spanish have this the simplest, have masks everywhere instead of creating a tapestry of exclusions and loopholes and yeahbut's.

    So if it favours larger shops not to have mandatory you're basically admitting people don't like wearing them and if masks were not mandatory in certain shops people might prefer to visit a shop where they didn't have to wear a muzzle.


  • #5754
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    GT89 wrote: »
    So if it favours larger shops not to have mandatory you're basically admitting people don't like wearing them and if masks were not mandatory in certain shops people might prefer to visit a shop where they didn't have to wear a muzzle mask.

    You're proof positive that there are people who don't like wearing them so what great shocker is it from me to acknowledge you exist?


  • #5755
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,614 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    GT89 wrote: »
    So why not just make masks mandatory in shops under x square ft.

    There's too many variables - size, level of ventilation, how much space is there between aisles etc etc for us to come up with X.
    It's probably a curve of risk not a cliff.
    Masks are mandatory on public transport, but with a lot more time and analysis - neither of which we have capacity for right now - we could probably figure out which particular vehicles are the highest \ lowest risk. Ditto for retail.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #5756
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    There's too many variables - size, level of ventilation, how much space is there between aisles etc etc for us to come up with X.
    It's probably a curve of risk not a cliff.
    Masks are mandatory on public transport, but with a lot more time and analysis - neither of which we have capacity for right now - we could probably figure out which particular vehicles are the highest \ lowest risk. Ditto for retail.
    And, being perfectly honest, there is little gain in being selective about when and where. It can get too confusing, too easy to make mistakes.

    We have to think of it like condoms to prevent pregnancy. It's not always necessary. There are times in the cycle when the risk is really low, when a condom adds no extra protection because the risk is so low.

    But because figuring out when it is or isn't necessary is so fraught with difficulty and so prone to error, it's a much better message to say, "Just wear a Johnny". That provides the greatest amount of protection with the least amount of error.

    Same for masks. You might wear one for 8 hours and it turns out that your risk was close to nil all day. But that's no biggie. You haven't experienced any downside from it. The opposite - not wearing a mask all day and it turns out your risk was high - is a much bigger deal.


  • #5757
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,433 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    GT89 since you can't seem to manage 48 hours away from this thread (post 5,708) take a week off this forum

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #5758
    bodhrandude
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,862 ✭✭✭✭bodhrandude


    Yes: surgical
    I noticed folk in Centra in Salthill today who didn't mask up, I wouldn't like to be the shop assistant made to make them wear a mask.

    If you want to get into it, you got to get out of it. (Hawkwind 1982)



  • #5759
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    No: I don't care enough
    There was such an incident of that on Wednesday, stateside: a cantankerous customer had a tantrum about wearing a mask with a female grocery store worker, eyewitnesses report he slammed his grocery cart into her several times - which is when she pepper sprayed him.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/507625-grocery-store-worker-used-pepper-spray-on-customer-who-refused-to-wear


  • #5760
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    If they bring in mandatory use here; a €500 fine for not wearing one, for example, then any enforcement concerns go away. The shop can ask people to mask up and if anyone refuses you just point at the CCTV and tell them you'll report to the Gardai.

    Who'll be down to the gaf sharpish with a FPN for you.

    The smart money then is in the shop who provides a mask dispenser at the front door where you buy a mask for €1, but get €1 off when you get to the till.


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  • #5761
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    Here's a Swiss study into one outbreak. Turned out in this case face shields were of little value.

    Rudolf Leuthold, head of the cantonal health department in Graübunden, said the face shields were the common denominator in infections.

    “It has been shown that only those employees who had plastic visors were infected. There was not a single infection among employees with a mask.”

    NB the underlined.

    Again not a shock. Face shields while no doubt offering some risk reduction leave the mouth and nose completely open. I can see them having some value if someone wearing one coughed or sneezed. Better than nothing but masks are better.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



This discussion has been closed.
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