Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings

completedit · 16-07-2020 12:40PM

I think it's absolutely justified to have certain areas where masks are obligatory(Shops, public transport, work places) but have places where they aren't a requirement(Bars, pubs) We have to be pragmatic about this. People like bars and pubs and drinking and if they want to do it, they should be let do it. These things matter to people. They exist for a reason.

There was nothing awful about the scenes from Dame Lane despite the way people have tried to portray it. People out having a few beers and having a good time. It should be a sign of how good a country we live in that people are able to do that.

snotboogie · 16-07-2020 12:47PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Imagine being a teen or 20-something in today's society.

All your social outlets from your education and college life to sports to pubs to nightclubs to travel plans have been closed over a virus that poses zero risk to you and your friends.

You suck it up for months.

At the end of 5 months, your reward is to have a host of politicians and other self-important curtain-twitchers wagging their finger at you and telling you that you've been very bold and need to be punished some more.

Meanwhile every politician and populist is promising we'll borrow the billions needed and get the young to pay it all back while at the same time the economy and job-prospects are flushed down the toilet.

I really hope the young people of this country revolt over what is happening

Your point on how this is affecting young people is correct and hugely underrated. People talking about social distancing being not an issue are usually those settled with families who do not socialize much outside of their direct household anyway. They need to consider how this will affect those younger than them or not as settled as them.

However your solution to ignore the virus is ridiculous. This has been tried in many of the US States and has been a complete failure. You cannot ignore the virus and just keep going as if it wasn't there. You are now seeing governors and mayors in Southern US States who were vehemently anti lockdown having to backtrack as their medical systems are starting to get overwhelmed. The death rate is now back to where it was in mid May in the US and rising. I don't see how you can look at this and say, we need to copy them?

stephenjmcd · 16-07-2020 12:47PM

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1283725898051706880?s=19

tobefrank321 · 16-07-2020 12:48PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Imagine being a teen or 20-something in today's society.

All your social outlets from your education and college life to sports to pubs to nightclubs to travel plans have been closed over a virus that poses zero risk to you and your friends.

You suck it up for months.

At the end of 5 months, your reward is to have a host of politicians and other self-important curtain-twitchers wagging their finger at you and telling you that you've been very bold and need to be punished some more.

Meanwhile every politician and populist is promising we'll borrow the billions needed and get the young to pay it all back while at the same time the economy and job-prospects are flushed down the toilet.

I really hope the young people of this country revolt over what is happening

You couldn't miss the point further if you tried.

The idea the government would ban pub openings but do nothing about house parties is part of the same idiocy and insanity that has defined their approach to covid 19 since day 1.

House parties do nothing for the economy, you know the economy we have to rescue from the gutter at this stage, the economy which posters like you keep harping on about.

Pubs at least employ people and also employ suppliers. Hundreds of thousands of jobs depend on the trade, including young people.

If we go back to a generalised lockdown, we will see tens of thousands more job losses.

So yes, those young people can suck it up for as long as it takes.

BattleCorp · 16-07-2020 12:52PM

I don't understand the uproar regarding the wearing of masks.

The scientific evidence is there. Masks help reduce the risk of spreading COVID-19. They work when used in conjunction with social distancing.

The reason the WHO and the Irish Government didn't recommend masks in the beginning is because there was a world-wide shortage of masks.

Supply chains have now been set up to provide an adequate amount of PPE so that's why the WHO and the Irish Government are now recommending the wearing of masks.

What's the big deal about being asked to wear a mask when in public? It's no big deal and if it lessens the chance of catching the virus, then wear one if there's no medical reason why you shouldn't wear one.

Seweryn · 16-07-2020 12:52PM

Arghus wrote: »

Yes, some of us do look at the figures. They are published here, every single day.

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

It's all there. Total tests, positivity rate, total tests in the last 24 hours, etc, etc.

Yeah... but for example that statistic figures show over 1,700 deaths. Surely that is overblown number ("include probable and possible..."). And the thing is, people have that number in their head, ever though it is a small number, still well overstated.

completedit · 16-07-2020 12:53PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't understand the uproar regarding the wearing of masks.

The scientific evidence is there. Masks help reduce the risk of spreading COVID-19. They work when used in conjunction with social distancing.

The reason the WHO and the Irish Government didn't recommend masks in the beginning is because there was a world-wide shortage of masks.

Supply chains have now been set up to provide an adequate amount of PPE so that's why the WHO and the Irish Government are now recommending the wearing of masks.

What's the big deal about being asked to wear a mask when in public? It's no big deal and if it lessens the chance of catching the virus, then wear one if there's no medical reason why you shouldn't wear one.

Ah, they're a bit weird and leave a weird feeling. We are social creatures and the impact of widescale mask wearing over a long period is a bit odd. However, needs must for the time being. Like I said, have certain places where they're required. It's not all or nothing. Pubs, bars etc. not essential. Public transport, shopping centres and supermarkets they are. If someone wants to go to a bar and put themselves or family at 'risk'(and I use the term lightly) then that's their prerogative.

dalyboy · 16-07-2020 12:57PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1283725898051706880?s=19

Well that bit of kite flying confirms the fears of publicans and staff. It really means the pubs will be closed for the remaining of 2020. I’m waiting for the school reopening kite flying now , can’t see how they’ll reopen in 6 weeks. Holy show of a farce this entire handling

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-07-2020 12:59PM

Hurrache wrote: »

House parties the risk is to those attending, and their immediate family and social circles. There's nobody at house parties that someone doesn't know, no issue for tracing people.

In a pub, the circles are wider and exponentially put more people at risk.

That's a bit simplistic. People at house parties will also be going to shops, other friends houses etc. Their family members will be going to work, visiting neighbours, travelling abroad for holidays and so on. Of course large numbers can be put at risk if someone at a party has covid.

dalyboy · 16-07-2020 01:11PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I think pushing back the reopening of schools would cause a big swing in public opinion of the government's handling of this. I don't think it will come to that, but then I didn't think the pubs would get pushed back either.

Agreed on the public backlash RE the schools , but I can seriously see it happening. If 14 cases a day is too many cases to open pubs then same will apply to schoolS reopening. I echo another poster from last night when I say this is going to get ugly. There’s certainly a huge cohort of the public getting to breaking point of all the restriction senselessness and want clarity and firm time bound plans to exit this mess

FintanMcluskey · 16-07-2020 01:12PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't understand the uproar regarding the wearing of masks.

The scientific evidence is there. Masks help reduce the risk of spreading COVID-19. They work when used in conjunction with social distancing.

The reason the WHO and the Irish Government didn't recommend masks in the beginning is because there was a world-wide shortage of masks.

Supply chains have now been set up to provide an adequate amount of PPE so that's why the WHO and the Irish Government are now recommending the wearing of masks.

What's the big deal about being asked to wear a mask when in public? It's no big deal and if it lessens the chance of catching the virus, then wear one if there's no medical reason why you shouldn't wear one.

Im sure for the less aesthetically fortunate its a no brainer to wear masks but for some of us its like putting a pair of overalls on a butterfly

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 01:20PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

So yes, those young people can suck it up for as long as it takes.

For as long as what takes exactly?

The virus is not going anywhere without a vaccine. That may be years away.

There are 8 people in ICU. 8 on the whole of Ireland. The curve couldn't be any flatter.

In almost 88% of deaths there was an underlying condition.

Over 65s account for almost 92% of confirmed deaths

The R number is irrelevant when dealing with low case numbers.

What's your metric here? It's very clear that this virus is predominently harmful to one group of people. Over 65's with pre existing conditions. Can these people not self isolate and take extra care, while everyone else goes on with their lives, adhering to social distancing, ppe wear, reduced capacity services and working from home?

16-07-2020 01:22PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

For as long as what takes exactly?

The virus is not going anywhere without a vaccine. That may be years away.

There are 8 people in ICU. 8 on the whole of Ireland. The curve couldn't be any flatter.

In almost 88% of deaths there was an underlying condition.

Over 65s account for almost 92% of confirmed deaths

The R number is irrelevant when dealing with low case numbers.

What's your metric here? It's very clear that this virus is predominently harmful to one group of people. Over 65's with pre existing conditions. Can these people not self isolate and take extra care, while everyone else goes on with their lives, adhering to social distancing, ppe wear, reduced capacity services and working from home?

Can't leave a segment of society behind. Numbers at the moment don't indicate we need to either

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 01:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't leave a segment of society behind. Numbers at the moment don't indicate we need to either

I agree that the numbers dont indicate that we dont need to.

But the ironic part of your statement is that we are leaving a segment of society behind. Anybody who works in pubs, airports or with airlines for example.

If 14 cases is too many, then the schools or pubs will never reopen. And if 14 cases is too many, you've hit the point whereby the most vulnerable need to make a sacrifice that we have made for them for months now. You cant hit the pause button on people's lives for potentially years because of a virus which is predominantly only fatal to over 65's with preexisting conditions.

Ginger n Lemon · 16-07-2020 01:41PM

“I think you have really missed the picture here. By opening these pubs, you would not have increased the occurrences of the virus.”

“What is the difference between a person sitting in a public house with a pint of Guinness in one hand and a toasted cheese sandwich in the other hand and a person with a pint of Guinness and no toasted cheese sandwich? Could you please explain why it poses a health risk to that person.”

“I really feel as if it is a crazy decision by the Government.”

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40016846.html

Well according to Irish science - sandwich will protect you from covid 19 :rolleyes:

Embarrassing beyond belief.

Hurrache · 16-07-2020 01:58PM

What's embarrassing is that you continue to purposely misrepresent the reasons for food being served in pubs.

Allinall · 16-07-2020 02:01PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

“I think you have really missed the picture here. By opening these pubs, you would not have increased the occurrences of the virus.”

“What is the difference between a person sitting in a public house with a pint of Guinness in one hand and a toasted cheese sandwich in the other hand and a person with a pint of Guinness and no toasted cheese sandwich? Could you please explain why it poses a health risk to that person.”

“I really feel as if it is a crazy decision by the Government.”

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40016846.html

Well according to Irish science - sandwich will protect you from covid 19 :rolleyes:

Embarrassing beyond belief.

Nobody has said, or even implied that. Anywhere, ever.

sliabh 1956 · 16-07-2020 02:03PM

Are Churches still restricted to 50 people gathering for pubic meetings

completedit · 16-07-2020 02:17PM

What exactly is not open right now? I'm in south dublin and could have a fairly normal Thursday night out if I wanted to.

Trying to figure out why it matters to me so much. I suppose just nonsensical rules and people's completely misguided sense of fear and risk. The lack of a long term plan and the bull**** inevitably of the Govt. backpedaling on it's directions even tho there has been no changes in regards virus/vaccination.

tobefrank321 · 16-07-2020 02:19PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

For as long as what takes exactly?

The virus is not going anywhere without a vaccine. That may be years away.

There are 8 people in ICU. 8 on the whole of Ireland. The curve couldn't be any flatter.

In almost 88% of deaths there was an underlying condition.

Over 65s account for almost 92% of confirmed deaths

The R number is irrelevant when dealing with low case numbers.

What's your metric here? It's very clear that this virus is predominently harmful to one group of people. Over 65's with pre existing conditions. Can these people not self isolate and take extra care, while everyone else goes on with their lives, adhering to social distancing, ppe wear, reduced capacity services and working from home?

This whole thing started with 1 case in Wuhan about 8 months ago. It has now infected over 12 million (very conservatively) and killed over 500,000. The R0 is now somewhere between 1.2 and 1.8 in Ireland. If it reaches 2, you could be looking at thousands of cases daily in a couple of months. Then see what ICU looks like.

I agree with what you are saying about limiting the movements of vulnerable groups. Unfortunately however the government have shown no clue how to successfully do that. Isolating nursing homes and staff from the rest of society while doable would be controversial. So the government will again opt for the easy option, shut everything down, 2km restriction, closed schools, non essential shops and so on.

Hurrache · 16-07-2020 02:20PM

completedit wrote: »

What exactly is not open right now? I'm in south dublin and could have a fairly normal Thursday night out if I wanted to.

Trying to figure out why it matters to me so much. I suppose just nonsensical rules and people's completely misguided sense of fear and risk.

In fairness a lot, if not most, rural pubs in small towns and villages are much more affected than elsewhere. You'd be lucky to get a packet of peanuts in them, never mind them have in place the policies or space required by the FSAI in order to store, handle and serve food.

16-07-2020 02:25PM

If its not safe to enter a shop without a mask and its not safe to be in a pub, then its simply not safe for schools to reopen.
How could anyone be confident about sending their children to school when the official health advise is that its too dangerous to go for a beer?

Of course its all rubbish. 14 or so cases a day of a mild illness shouldn't be stopping us like this. If the illness was anything more than mild, we'd be seeing more than 8 in ICU with 10 - 20 daily cases.

I fear that pubs still won't be allowed to open on 10th August. (months after the rest of the Europe)
I fear that schools won't actually reopen in September. Which will be a disaster for the children's developments.

Ireland seems to be putting all of its eggs into the vaccine basket. Dangerous game. Absolutely no short term timelines for that right now.

16-07-2020 02:32PM

completedit wrote: »

What exactly is not open right now? I'm in south dublin and could have a fairly normal Thursday night out if I wanted to.

Trying to figure out why it matters to me so much. I suppose just nonsensical rules and people's completely misguided sense of fear and risk. The lack of a long term plan and the bull**** inevitably of the Govt. backpedaling on it's directions even tho there has been no changes in regards virus/vaccination.

I think its just the nonsense of it all as much as anything else.

The 2 and 5Km thing
The homeware typo scandal
The 9 euro meal thing

As if a few chicken tenders cures the f*cking virus.

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 02:32PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

This whole thing started with 1 case in Wuhan about 8 months ago. It has now infected over 12 million (very conservatively) and killed over 500,000. The R0 is now somewhere between 1.2 and 1.8 in Ireland. If it reaches 2, you could be looking at thousands of cases daily in a couple of months. Then see what ICU looks like.

I dont mean to be rude, but we have been over the R number repeatedly over the last 10-15 pages. It is an irrelevant metric to be basic anything off of when dealing with such low numbers of cases. This is what the blatant misrepresentation of the facts leads to, these politicians harking on about an increasingly irrelevant r number - it leads to people who dont understand what's going on. People have been conditioned to panic when the R number is greater than 1. Its absolute nonsense.

Once again, the purpose of the lockdown was to flatten the curve. That happened. It's been flattened. The lockdown was not designed to eradicate the virus. That's not realistically possible without a vaccine.

Other countries in Europe have all been open for weeks with no issue. Why is it that Ireland always has to be the last one?

We are not going to get to a point of having thousands of cases daily. It's quite frankly an absurd comment. At the beginning of this we had no info and no guidelines. Now we have social distancing, we have working from home, we have masks and ppe, reduced capacity services, booking of services rather than walk ins. Without the vaccine this is the new normal and we need to get on with our lives rather than dipping back and forth through stages with 14 cases and 8 icu patients.

Allinall · 16-07-2020 02:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think its just the nonsense of it all as much as anything else.

The 2 and 5Km thing
The homeware typo scandal
The 9 euro meal thing

As if a few chicken tenders cures the f*cking virus.

Nobody ever said that.

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 02:36PM

Allinall wrote: »

Nobody ever said that.

No, but the current Covid policy is so nonsensical, that you are left to draw absurd conclusions as to what the government is thinking.

Allinall · 16-07-2020 02:39PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

No, but the current Covid policy is so nonsensical, that you are left to draw absurd conclusions as to what the government is thinking.

If you know the conclusions are absurd, why are you drawing them?

tobefrank321 · 16-07-2020 02:41PM

Coybig_ wrote: »

I dont mean to be rude, but we have been over the R number repeatedly over the last 10-15 pages. It is an irrelevant metric to be basic anything off of when dealing with such low numbers of cases. This is what the blatant misrepresentation of the facts leads to, these politicians harking on about an increasingly irrelevant r number - it leads to people who dont understand what's going on. People have been conditioned to panic when the R number is greater than 1. Its absolute nonsense.

Once again, the purpose of the lockdown was to flatten the curve. That happened. It's been flattened. The lockdown was not designed to eradicate the virus. That's not realistically possible without a vaccine.

Other countries in Europe have all been open for weeks with no issue. Why is it that Ireland always has to be the last one?

We are not going to get to a point of having thousands of cases daily. It's quite frankly an absurd comment. At the beginning of this we had no info and no guidelines. Now we have social distancing, we have working from home, we have masks and ppe, reduced capacity services, booking of services rather than walk ins. Without the vaccine this is the new normal and we need to get on with our lives rather than dipping back and forth through stages with 14 cases and 8 icu patients.

Do you understand this started as 1 case and over 8 months increased to 12 million cases?

Why do you think it cannot become thousands of cases daily in Ireland?

Exponential growth has been covered countless times on here.
R0 of 2 and 100 cases week 1.
week 2 - 200 cases
week 3 - 400 cases
week 4 - 800 cases
week 5 - 1600 cases
week 6 3200 cases (450 a day)
week 7 6400 cases
week 8 12800 cases (1800 cases a day)

That's already the growth other places have seen such as southern states in the US.

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 02:43PM

Allinall wrote: »

If you know the conclusions are absurd, why are you drawing them?

I'm not drawing them, I didnt say that

.

What are people to think? Everyone stay at home to protect the elderly, who are the at risk group from this (92 percent of deaths were over 65)while the virus ravages nursing homes?

Nobody is allowed to travel, but anyone can come to Ireland, and here's a list of countries it's safe to go to, but dont go there?

Pubs can reopen if you're having a meal but if you aren't serving food then you cant open?

Masks dont help with Covid, oh wait actually they do, wear one on public transport or else, but nobody is enforcing it?

Naos · 16-07-2020 02:47PM

growleaves wrote: »

You can go into a cafe in Porto or Lisbon at midnight on a weekday and buy a bottle of beer. Or go to a pub and get a pint. If its late they could be showing South American football on the television

Continentals don't always sit down to a meal with their friends every time they want a drink.

Not sure how well a cafe-bar culture would work in a cold, wet country like Ireland.

This right here is what needs to change. Allow cafe's and shops to sell beer like the vast majority of the EU. Allow us to buy alcohol after 10pm and before 12:30pm on a Sunday.

And who is going to oppose this? That's right. The publicans & the VFI.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings