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Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

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    #32
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Whatever happened to the idea that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes?

    The court has ruled that they did pay their fair share.


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    #33
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    gailforecast wrote: »
    I’ve a feeling “wat about de Apple tax” will now replace “wat about de banks”.
    warra about de homeless Joe


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    #34
    christy c
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?


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    #35
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    murpho999 wrote: »
    But they have just been found to have not been guilty of that.

    Something being technically legal doesn't make it morally right.

    Again, I acknowledge that this is a very complicated case and I am no tax expert. I also recognise the benefits that the presence of Apple brings to Ireland.

    I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

    Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?


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    #36
    JJayoo
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    I just hope we get to pay the legal bill :)


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    #37
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Hodors Appletart wrote: »
    The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.
    What's incredible is the amount of people very vocal about this, who think that Ireland lost the case.


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    #38
    gailforecast
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 140 ✭✭gailforecast


    Shelga wrote: »
    Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

    We are. Do you remember what Ireland was like before FDI arrived? Rather than our best and brightest leaving for greener pastures, there are now opportunities for Ireland’s educated to excel.

    If we accept that FDI is a good thing, then we’ve got to ask why they’re here? The weather? Nope, it’s the favourable tax rate and R&D tax exemptions.


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    #39
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,812 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Whatever happened to the idea that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes?

    No such thing as fair tax. You pay a % based on your income, how is that fair?
    There is no fairness in taxation, only sustainability.

    Delighted with the result. Ireland and Apple were on the same side on this, it's mind boggling to see people thinking they were not.


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    #40
    Metroid diorteM
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭Metroid diorteM


    This is good news. I didn't like the implication that we break laws to do business here.


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    #41
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,410 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Shelga wrote: »
    Something being technically legal doesn't make it morally right.

    Again, I acknowledge that this is a very complicated case and I am no tax expert. I also recognise the benefits that the presence of Apple brings to Ireland.

    I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

    Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

    They have just ruled that Ireland did not give Apple special treatment.

    It means that Ireland also retains its right to set its own corporate tax rates.

    Those rates have led to companies investing in Ireland. Ireland is competing with other countries for this investment.


    Can you imagine what our economy would be like without them?


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    #42
    silver2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    christy c wrote: »
    This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

    Watch as they either keep very quiet or as they claim the ruling is wrong.

    This is why SF should never ever be in government


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    #43
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    gailforecast wrote: »
    We are. Do you remember what Ireland was like before FDI arrived? Rather than our best and brightest leaving for greener pastures, there are now opportunities for Ireland’s educated to excel.

    If we accept that FDI is a good thing, then we’ve got to ask why they’re here? The weather? Nope, it’s the favourable tax rate and R&D tax exemptions.

    Massive companies will never be taxed fairly, because countries around the world will never have a unified tax code so they have nowhere to escape.

    I accept that, so I suppose on those terms it is true we have to do our best to stand out and make Ireland an attractive place to do business. Obviously the benefits of FDI are inarguable.

    But facilitating tax avoidance still doesn't make me jump up and down with glee.


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    #44
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭enricoh


    christy c wrote: »
    This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

    Meh, they'd just tax the rich to get it back - easy peasy!


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    #45
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,458 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Thankfully this will put an end now to the lefty loons call to arms "what about dee appul moneh !!11!"


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    #46
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,812 ✭✭✭Cordell


    gailforecast wrote: »
    if we accept that FDI is a good thing, then we’ve got to ask why they’re here? The weather? Nope, it’s the favourable tax rate and R&D tax exemptions.

    It's that and also skilled english speaking workforce, also geographical position right in the middle, there's a few factors that attract FDI. There's other places with way more favorable tax rates that don't attract FDIs, so it's not just that.


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    #47
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Shelga wrote: »
    Something being technically legal doesn't make it morally right.

    Again, I acknowledge that this is a very complicated case and I am no tax expert. I also recognise the benefits that the presence of Apple brings to Ireland.

    I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

    Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

    Our tax regime is structured to attract multinationals - who employ a lot of people here. There are thousands of jobs in Ireland as a direct result of these incentives.

    You may have a point around the morals of how/where these companies are taxed but you also have to acknowledge that if we somehow wanted to punish the apes of this world by changing our tax regime then we are putting a lot of jobs at risk.

    It would be no comfort to me that the US got 40bn extra in taxes if the result is a higher unemployment


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    #48
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Thank **** for that.


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    #49
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

    Because they are idiots and economic illiterates in the same vein as Trump and his 'Build a wall' followers.


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    #50
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Shelga wrote: »
    I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

    Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?
    Opposing tax avoidance, and being glad that Ireland won this case, are not at odds with one another.

    We need laws to reflect what we want as a society. To defend society and the individual against what we consider to be immoral damage.

    "Moral right" is an etheral concept. We cannot manage society on the basis of ethereal concepts, otherwise it just becomes a free-for-all of made up crap. It would mean that no matter how good a life you lead, you could be thrown in prison because someone took a dislike to you.

    Instead we must transcribe these ethereal concepts as best we can, into laws. Into defined rules that allow people to know what they can and can't do, which in turn means that you cannot be found guilty of wrongdoing without having actually broken a rule.

    This also requires that the law is robustly defended. That if someone has been charged with something, that it has been appropriately examined to ensure that the law is being properly applied.

    That doesn't mean that one has to agree with the law itself. But if we start ignoring the laws we don't like, then we may as well abandon the rule of law. If we don't like laws, we should change them.

    So we should absolutely change our laws to tighten up issues around tax avoidance and tax loopholes. But we can't just ignore our own laws to claim Apple's €13bn because it suits us to. The legtimacy of the law should be tested and defended all the time, whether we like the law or not. And whether we like the offence, or not.


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    #51
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Bambi wrote: »
    The ECJ has massively overreached its original purpose. Nation states are governed by Parliaments not a panel of Judges.

    It depends on the nation-state. Ireland is ultimately governed by the Irish Constitution, not the Dail per say. Westminister is different. The EU is different again, especially if it relates to competition law, nation-states have recourse against judgements made by the EU Commission or Parliament. Checks and balances and all that.


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    #52
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    Our tax regime is structured to attract multinationals - who employ a lot of people here. There are thousands of jobs in Ireland as a direct result of these incentives.

    You may have a point around the morals of how/where these companies are taxed but you also have to acknowledge that if we somehow wanted to punish the apes of this world by changing our tax regime then we are putting a lot of jobs at risk.

    It would be no comfort to me that the US got 40bn extra in taxes if the result is a higher unemployment

    Totally agree. I'm not going to put my money where my mouth is and sacrifice Irish jobs on the altar of idealism. Hence why I think Sinn Fein should think very carefully before they issue a public statement on this.

    But it just brings into focus again, just how much money international companies avoid paying in tax. Trillions, no doubt. I think this judgement should at least prompt a discussion on how to clamp down on tax havens. Even as I type this I realise how unrealistic it probably is, but here's an interesting article nonetheless, that explores the possibility of unitary tax regimes: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/multinationals-billions-tax/

    Proper taxation undoubtedly becomes trickier in a global economy, but are we just going to facilitate the ballooning profits of the likes of Apple and Facebook forever and ever, while wealth disparity around the world continues to grow at a sickening rate?


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    #53
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,812 ✭✭✭Cordell


    but are we just going to facilitate the ballooning profits of the likes of Apple and Facebook forever and ever, while wealth disparity around the world continues to grow at a sickening rate?
    Taxing them will not fix anything.
    But, allowing R&D tax grants will bring more highly paid jobs in Ireland, which in turn will bring more income tax and spending and drive the general economy. Also, those moneys are a foreign influx into Irish economy so that's another win.

    Or we could tax the hell out of them so we don't compete with France and Germany, I'm sure that will fix the world.


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    #54
    d15ude
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭d15ude


    gailforecast wrote: »
    The court has ruled that they did pay their fair share.

    Yes, it has.

    But it's almost certain that the case will now move on to the European Court of Justice.


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    #55
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    we were either going to keep 2 billion of it (thats 1 months welfare bill) and have our entire FDI pool looking elsewhere or we could send it back and prove that we're the greatest little island to do business.

    this helps us in many more magnitudes than making apple pay ever would have

    They could look elsewhere but would they realistically go anywhere else if they'd lost? Any changes or new laws would be across the EU so no better deals could be found that Ireland couldn't also offer


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    #56
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    riffmongous wrote: »
    They could look elsewhere but would they realistically go anywhere else if they'd lost? Any changes or new laws would be across the EU so no better deals could be found that Ireland couldn't also offer
    Every country has advantages which it will try and exploit, there will never be a complete level playing field. Countries like Germany and France have a geographic advantage we don't have, and also population size advantages and advanced universities. We have an English speaking population which is useful, but after that we've had to make our own advantages - lots of investment in education and a lower tax rate primarily.


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    #57
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

    FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.


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    #58
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,650 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Hodors Appletart wrote: »
    we were never going to keep it anyway, if Ireland/Apple had have lost the money would have had to go to other EU Countries too.

    The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.

    the "make apple pay for it" brigade will need another cause now

    Absolutely

    This is a tremendous victory for our country.

    We were accused of wrongdoing. Our people were accused of wrongdoing, and we ALL should have stood together here on the one side, united....but no, that is not how we operate......


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    #59
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Bowie wrote: »
    Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

    FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.
    The court said the tax claim was unproven. The EU commission have already lost on Starbucks case as well. They can do anti-trust very well but taxation is dipping into country competencies and likely to bring them out fighting.


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    #60
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,650 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

    Because they are thick? Or else don't want to see it and don't want to try and understand it.........


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    #61
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Amazing how many ordinary people celebrate corporate tax evasion as a good thing. Just goes to show what a good brainwashing can do.

    They have been fully compliant with Irish tax regulations.

    I think lots of people have strong opinions on something they have no understanding of, and make sure others are aware of those ill informed views.

    This is a huge win for Ireland and educated people employed by foreign investment in Ireland


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