Jack Charlton has died

Hego Damask · 12-07-2020 10:57pm

RIP
Something truly magical about that 1990 world cup - and the lead up to it.
I was in 5th class going into 6th and that's that golden age where you have the best friends you'll ever have .... amazing, had one friend who was really into the football, more then me, but it was just contagious - he had a great t shirt of the Ireland 1 - 1 England .... goal by sheedy, and the England GK was smashing his head against the post ...

McGinniesta · 12-07-2020 11:01pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

He sure was one lucky manager compared with poor Eoin Hand before him who was cursed!
Scotland got us to Euro '88 and we needed Spain to beat Denmark to get to USA '94. No one did us any favours before Jack came along.
He should have called it a day after USA '94 but he was enjoying the adulation too much and having to never buy a pint might have had something to do with it.
He had lost interest for the Euro '96 campaign and even allowed the players to go on the lash before a match v Austria in Dublin as he went fishing!
We lost home and away to Austria (who finished 4th behind N.I. IN 3rd) and managed a 0-0 draw with Lietchenstein and eventually missed out qualifying.
Its tragic we missed out as Ireland playing in the Euros in England would have been special but Mr Charlton couldn't have been arsed at that stage and had lost interest.

Since when is results going your way a bad thing?

Scotland couldn't get themselves to Euro 88. To suggest that they got us there is a foolish remark. We lost one game in qualifying (away to Bulgaria in controversial circumstances) and we topped our group and were one of only 8 teams to qualify. 24 teams qualify now and Scotland still can't get themselves there.

The way the game in Belfast developed we did well to get the draw

chrisd2019 · 12-07-2020 11:03pm

RIP

A true celebrity, a hero and a leader.

Richard Hillman · 12-07-2020 11:30pm

He was the most wonderful man.

FixdePitchmark · 13-07-2020 1:39am

McGinniesta wrote: »

Since when is results going your way a bad thing?

Scotland couldn't get themselves to Euro 88. To suggest that they got us there is a foolish remark. We lost one game in qualifying (away to Bulgaria in controversial circumstances) and we topped our group and were one of only 8 teams to qualify. 24 teams qualify now and Scotland still can't get themselves there.

The way the game in Belfast developed we did well to get the draw

I've enjoyed Declan Lynch's contributions over the last few days.

But - this Luck thing, is a bit of a stretch - the qualification for 88 (on mature reflection) - was an extraordinary achievement.

We knocked out 3 Mexico 86 qualifying teams. Including a Semi Final team Belgium. We won the group. The Scottish Team that beat Bulgaria was full of top level pros - at an equal or higher level to the Irish Team.

The idea around Gary Mackay got us to 88 - has become bigger than the group performance.

We had no luck outside of our first game versus England in 1988 - we should have beat Russia and that Dutch goal - jaysus. The group we were in - jaysus , England - Russia - Holland ,

Yes Jack made mistakes with his over casual approach to preparation - but the team spirit is the other side of that argument.

In 1990 - we got Italy in the quarter final in Rome - you could not get a tougher draw - not to mention - one can only imagine what was lined up with ref

we drew a great England team again in 1992 - it was a horrible group. We lost no games - and missed out to England (A world cup winner level team) who got a late goal to qualify - we played England off the park in Wembley - and only drew with them

In 1994 - the team was in transitional period and was another very tough group to qualify - then at world cup we got a horrible group, a terrible sequence of games, horrible locations, terrible kick off times - with extraordinary weather.

Then towards the end, We got another horrible draw for play off stages the Dutch. But the team was well past an end at that point.

I get the luck thing verus old Irish teams - but if you keep winning games and get lots of points - you make your own luck. They were practically unbeatable in the old Landsdowne road. That isn't luck, far from it.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 13-07-2020 6:49am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've enjoyed Declan Lynch's contributions over the last few days.

But - this Luck thing, is a bit of a stretch - the qualification for 88 (on mature reflection) - was an extraordinary achievement.

We knocked out 3 Mexico 86 qualifying teams. Including a Semi Final team Belgium. We won the group. The Scottish Team that beat Bulgaria was full of top level pros - at an equal or higher level to the Irish Team.

The idea around Gary Mackay got us to 88 - has become bigger than the group performance.

We had no luck outside of our first game versus England in 1988 - we should have beat Russia and that Dutch goal - jaysus. The group we were in - jaysus , England - Russia - Holland ,

Yes Jack made mistakes with his over casual approach to preparation - but the team spirit is the other side of that argument.

In 1990 - we got Italy in the quarter final in Rome - you could not get a tougher draw - not to mention - one can only imagine what was lined up with ref

we drew a great England team again in 1992 - it was a horrible group. We lost no games - and missed out to England (A world cup winner level team) who got a late goal to qualify - we played England off the park in Wembley - and only drew with them

In 1994 - the team was in transitional period and was another very tough group to qualify - then at world cup we got a horrible group, a terrible sequence of games, horrible locations, terrible kick off times - with extraordinary weather.

Then towards the end, We got another horrible draw for play off stages the Dutch. But the team was well past an end at that point.

I get the luck thing verus old Irish teams - but if you keep winning games and get lots of points - you make your own luck. They were practically unbeatable in the old Landsdowne road. That isn't luck, far from it.

People talk about luck, but we were unlucky too... we were very unlucky not to get out of our group in 88'... which would have put us straight into the semis of our first ever international tournament. We were a bit unlucky drawing the Italians in Rome in quarters in 1990 too, and gave them a great game!

For me 88' was probably even more impressive than 1990... back in that era, the world cup was basically the European powers + Brazil & Argentina. There were no bad teams in those euro championships back in those days... they were all serious teams.

Our group in that 88' tournament was the "group of death" in the true sense of that word... realistically little Ireland shouldn't have had a prayer of getting out of that group, yet we acquitted ourselves brilliantly and were very unlucky not to get into the semi finals.

And look at the managers of those teams... Bobby Robson, Rinus Michels, and the one many people forget about for the USSR, the great Valeriy Lobanovskyi. (considered by many to be an early pioneer of the modern tactics you see with Jurgen Klopp etc today)

If Charlton wasn't a top manager back then, as some people around here will foolishly try to claim, then he would not have stood any chance when locking horns with those legendary figures of the game! But he stood toe-to-toe with them, and was more than a match for them... and we were more than a match for those teams... which is remarkable really!

Charlton turned us into serious dark horse contenders for both Euro 88' and Italia 90'... in a very short period of time. We went from never qualifying for any tournaments previously, to being contenders on the world stage and eventually as high as 8th place in the world rankings!

How anyone can attempt to paint this as underachievement, is frankly beyond me... imho it can only really come from a place of bitterness or resentment or just lacking true knowledge of the game. Because the facts don't lie, he did an outstanding job as Ireland manager!

murpho999 · 13-07-2020 9:10am

PGE1970 wrote: »

In 1990, Ireland was a depressing place to be. There were no jobs and we were, essentially, a third world country.

But the summer of 1990 was the most exciting time of my life. I was 20, on the dole, skint and there was f ** k all to look forward to.

And then we had the most magical 4 weeks ever. Where people cried, laughed and hugged. Where we stood up and were proud to be Irish.

The nation held its breath and we put 'em under pressure.

You had to be there.

RIP Jack. Thank you for giving the country hope.

Just on this point, no doubt Ireland had economic problems then and at the time it was behind the rest of Europe but in any measure it was by no means near being what were then called third world countries.

Country was highly developed at the time and anybody who thinks Ireland was third world then has clearly never been to a third world country.

Hannibal_Smith · 13-07-2020 9:12am

Will there be something here to mark the funeral do you think? Not sure what they could do in the current climate?

FixdePitchmark · 13-07-2020 9:24am

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Will there be something here to mark the funeral do you think? Not sure what they could do in the current climate?

A funeral / late late - with a happy spin would be good.

Irish style funeral

Hard to get right - but are are good at them things

cdeb · 13-07-2020 9:48am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

we drew a great England team again in 1992 - it was a horrible group. We lost no games - and missed out to England (A world cup winner level team) who got a late goal to qualify - we played England off the park in Wembley - and only drew with them

On 92 as well - weren't Poland denied a blatant penalty in that game? Have memories of Chris Woods poleaxing (boom boom!) a Polish fella and nothing given. That would have seen us qualify.

Not to mention throwing away the 3-1 lead in Poland in the penultimate group game. You could say that was careless - but if the breaks are lucky, then the setbacks have to be unlucky surely.

The fact that people are suggesting we underachieved in coming within 10 minutes of the semi-finals of the Euros, and narrowly losing to the hosts in the quarter-finals of the World Cup is arguably a huge plus for Charlton. That the belief was there that a country that had never qualified for anything - was fourth seed in Euro 88 qualifying because we'd finished fourth in 86 qualifying - could suddenly go on to reach a major semi-final (or beyond) says it all about what Jack achieved.

A true great of the game.

Ger Roe · 13-07-2020 9:56am

I wouldn't be great on the technical side of football, tactics, team selection and formation, playing style etc.... but my memory of Jack's era is of the national pride and the 'can do' attitude..

He knew Ireland wasn't dealt a strong hand in terms of team selection, but he asked them all to step up to the plate and they did it for him. His plain talking gave the whole country the confidence to 'give it a lash'. When the team came off the pitch, you could tell they had done their best. We were taking on the world... and there was always a chance that we might beat them... but in the meantime, we were there... living in the moment and holding our place on the world stage. There were TV stations in foreign languages talking about our team and coming over to see where we had come from and how we got there... and why there was an England world cup hero leading us on.

Sometimes. these days. it seems like the team are just having a training session before going off to check the video replay to see what tactics worked and didn't, for the next time.

Jack knew you had one chance, and there was no rehearsal. That attitude worked both for our team and country.... for a while. We have forgotten the 'can do' attitude that a down to earth man from the old enemy thought us. He always looked like he had just stepped out of Emmerdale Farm, but we trusted that he had our interest at heart and he was going to do his best.

Thanks Jack, for the memories.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 11:00am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

He sure was one lucky manager compared with poor Eoin Hand before him who was cursed!
Scotland got us to Euro '88 and we needed Spain to beat Denmark to get to USA '94. No one did us any favours before Jack came along.
He should have called it a day after USA '94 but he was enjoying the adulation too much and having to never buy a pint might have had something to do with it.
He had lost interest for the Euro '96 campaign and even allowed the players to go on the lash before a match v Austria in Dublin as he went fishing!
We lost home and away to Austria (who finished 4th behind N.I. IN 3rd) and managed a 0-0 draw with Lietchenstein and eventually missed out qualifying.
Its tragic we missed out as Ireland playing in the Euros in England would have been special but Mr Charlton couldn't have been arsed at that stage and had lost interest.

I think lucky is a stretch. To avail of 'luck' you need to put yourself in a position to take advantage. It is always the way that teams will need certain results to go there way etc etc unless you are the Spain and Germanys of the world.

Charlton's team had some bad luck also.

YouTube Ireland v Netherlands (Euro 88). McGrath hit the post and Wim Kieft's goal was the jammiest ever.

WC 90 against Italy- the Italian goal was bad goalkeeping (ok not bad luck). I know Bonner gets a pass but his parry was atrocious.

England were lucky to qualify for Euro 92 with Linekar equalising against Poland with less than 10 minutes to go but on the other hand Ireland threw away a 2 goal lead against Poland. They were 3-1 up and Packie Bonner did not cover himself in glory. From memory he was badly at fault for both Poland's late goals.

Even WC 94...both Holland's goals came were from individual mistakes.

As for Euro 96. Well the year (1995) sarted strongly with a 'win' over England in February and then fast forward to May/June. Beat a strong Portugal at home and crusing at the top of the table. Then went 1-0 up against Austria at home (I was at that game) and Toni Polster (I think) scored a hat trick.

Yes the team was aging- I recall Ronnie Whelan coming on against Austria and his arse was blocking sunlight.

It then just unravelled pretty quick. That Austria game (bear in mind Austria were no great shakes) seemed to break the team. Age just caught up with them and the well was dry.

Got hammered away to Portugal but the team was missing several keys players and in terminal decline. Holland in the play off. Again missing several key players and got roundly hamered by basically Ajax's young and gifted Champions League winning team.

Curtain came down.

Vital goals scored during Jack's era:-

1. Alan McLoughlin v NI
2. John Sheridan v Spain
3. John Aldridge v Mexico
4. Niall Quinn v Holland (1990 WC)

Guess what they all have in common? All substitutes brought on when losing. Luck?

mikemac2 · 13-07-2020 11:42am

StackSteevens wrote: »

Correct.

Anyone else remember this shameless little turd jumping on the bandwagon in Rome in 1990?

The Shane Ross of his day :P

Haughey did the same to Stephen Roche in Paris!

Justin Credible Darts · 13-07-2020 12:52pm

they did the same why sonya o sullivan came home.

Before she went out she had to beg for sponsorship and they were all nowhere to be seen, but when she came back they were all out.

The best part about 1990 and the success was having to watch the GAA heads pretending to be happy for the lads playing the "foreign game", you could tell they were as false as anything in their praise.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 1:11pm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

they did the same why sonya o sullivan came home.

Before she went out she had to beg for sponsorship and they were all nowhere to be seen, but when she came back they were all out.

The best part about 1990 and the success was having to watch the GAA heads pretending to be happy for the lads playing the "foreign game", you could tell they were as false as anything in their praise.

Sure the GAA heads were the first out with the snide remarks about the granny rule and English players on the team.

I can remember of the worst offenders in my parish (AI winner in the 1970s) and the fcuker was over to Old Trafford every 5 minutues and he would physically recoil at the notion of going to a LOI or Irish game.

The best one: "Sure it's only failed GAA players that play soccer."

easygoing39 · 13-07-2020 1:48pm

Ha ha,our lads playing soccer on a world stage and the gaa dopes thinking that's a sign of failure!!!Never mind the millions in the bank from playing professionally.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 1:59pm

easygoing39 wrote: »

Ha ha,our lads playing soccer on a world stage and the gaa dopes thinking that's a sign of failure!!!Never mind the millions in the bank from playing professionally.

Sure I remember the same GAA head passing snide remarks about a professional player when he made his debut for Ireland.

But sure our GAA hero's son maked him in some U14 league game years beforehand and 'had him in his pocket all night' so he had no time for him.

I won't mention the player (now retired) but he played GAA underage for his local team close to us. Went to Scotland on professional terms, played for several teams in the PL and Championship. Played in the Champions league and over 20 caps for Ireland and played for Ireland all up through underage and close to 400 appearances in England.

I bet he still has nightmares about that U14 game...:D

Yeah your fat and bald son drives a lorry for a living and has the social skils of a brick and is the very definition of Yocal Local..

mikemac2 · 13-07-2020 3:40pm

I’m intrigued and after much searching I cannot find the answer

Colin Healy hits most of the clues

Dyr · 13-07-2020 3:48pm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

they did the same why sonya o sullivan came home.

Before she went out she had to beg for sponsorship and they were all nowhere to be seen, but when she came back they were all out.

The best part about 1990 and the success was having to watch the GAA heads pretending to be happy for the lads playing the "foreign game", you could tell they were as false as anything in their praise.

I have rural relatives who were staunch GAA, zero interest in soccer, and they were all delighted during Italia '90

Of course, the spivs and corner boys in the FAI squadrered the biggest sporting phenomenon the country had ever seen and soon Irish soccer returned to the **** show that it always was.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 3:55pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

I’m intrigued and after much searching I cannot find the answer

Colin Healy hits most of the clues

It's not but the identity of the player is not relevant it is the just the small time GAA mentality of some yocals that stuck.

I mean seriously. You are standing there watching him on Match of the Day or whatever and you try to belittle him over some irrelevant U14 GAA league game.

Necro · 13-07-2020 3:56pm

Mod:

This is a thread to pay respect to and discuss Jack Charlton, not a thread for soccer VS GAA discussion. Take that tribal nonsense to another forum, any further discussion along those lines will result in cards.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 4:00pm

The great thing about Jack's team was that you honestly were not afraid to play anyone.

I remember 1994, we genuinely had notions after the Italian game. Sure Holland were all over the place no problem. Roll on Brazil in the QF.

'We' as supporters felt everyone was there for the taking.

Agricola · 13-07-2020 6:10pm

Have watched a couple of documentaries since the news and enjoyed the nostalgia bath. It's a well worn cliché to say we'll never see the likes of it again, but in the case of those years under Jack, I can't see it being anything but true.

A big character like him, with that group of players, the admiration and respect he commanded, the way the game was back then and the way the country was at the time, everyone bought into it. Just great times.

cdeb · 13-07-2020 6:18pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I remember 1994, we genuinely had notions after the Italian game. Sure Holland were all over the place no problem. Roll on Brazil in the QF.

I remember being annoyed we'd come second in our group in Italia 90 because I was tracking the draw and could see it meant Italy in the quarters in Rome.

I'd much rather have got Holland's draw, which started with West Germany (who won the bloody thing) and then went on to Czechoslovakia/Costa Rica in the quarters, and England/Cameroon, Colombia, Belgium in the semis.

We'd definitely get to the final that way, was my view. Italy away was the only tie that could trip us up. In the entire World Cup.

OK, I was 10 - but I suspect I'm not alone in having had that blind optimism. Now we're delighted when we scrape through to the last 16 of the Euros by beating a second-string Italy side. The comparison is remarkable really. Can't see it again in my lifetime.

Tell me how · 13-07-2020 6:48pm

cdeb wrote: »

OK, I was 10 - but I suspect I'm not alone in having had that blind optimism. Now we're delighted when we scrape through to the last 16 of the Euros by beating a second-string Italy side. The comparison is remarkable really. Can't see it again in my lifetime.

Hard to see us reaching Number 6 in World Rankings again any time soon, that's for sure.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 7:16pm

cdeb wrote: »

I remember being annoyed we'd come second in our group in Italia 90 because I was tracking the draw and could see it meant Italy in the quarters in Rome.

I'd much rather have got Holland's draw, which started with West Germany (who won the bloody thing) and then went on to Czechoslovakia/Costa Rica in the quarters, and England/Cameroon, Colombia, Belgium in the semis.

We'd definitely get to the final that way, was my view. Italy away was the only tie that could trip us up. In the entire World Cup.

OK, I was 10 - but I suspect I'm not alone in having had that blind optimism. Now we're delighted when we scrape through to the last 16 of the Euros by beating a second-string Italy side. The comparison is remarkable really. Can't see it again in my lifetime.

My memory was different. You were definitley getting ahead of yourself. Nobody in my house wanted West Germany and in the San Siro as well where Brehme, Klinsman and Mattheus all played. When Holland got them it was high fives all round...suckers.

Romania??..nobody had a clue and this was Iron Curtain days. You had no hope of naming any of their players but sure anything was better than West Germany. Romania were a good team and Ireland just bored them to death. Hagi kept taking shots from 2000 yards out...a glory hole as they said in the school yard.

Mentally I think QF was it for Ireland.

cdeb · 13-07-2020 7:19pm

Logically, you're definitely correct.

But sure we'd drawn with West Germany only the previous year. I wasn't worried about them.

Interesting thing about that Romania side was that Steaua had of course famously won the European Cup in 1986 (and some of those players were in the Italia 90 squad), but they'd also made the final again in 1989. Putting them out - even if they were Hagi + 10 - doesn't really get the credit it deserves. Even if there definitely were tougher last 16 options.

partyguinness · 13-07-2020 7:28pm

cdeb wrote: »

Logically, you're definitely correct.

But sure we'd drawn with West Germany only the previous year. I wasn't worried about them.

Interesting thing about that Romania side was that Steaua had of course famously won the European Cup in 1986 (and some of those players were in the Italia 90 squad), but they'd also made the final again in 1989. Putting them out - even if they were Hagi + 10 - doesn't really get the credit it deserves. Even if there definitely were tougher last 16 options.

The one worry about Romania was that they hammered the USSR in their opening game. It was only 2-0 but they were very impressive and that was a very good USSR team regarded as genuine contenders.

Of course Romania were missing Marius Lacatus for the Ireland game- their #1 striker and one the best around in Europe at the time. As you mention they has plenty of players from 2 European Cup finals and most of the players went on to become household names especially after 1994 WC.

While is totally moot it would have been a lot more uncomfortable if Lacatus was playing.

Grandeeod · 13-07-2020 8:15pm

partyguinness wrote: »

My memory was different. You were definitley getting ahead of yourself. Nobody in my house wanted West Germany and in the San Siro as well where Brehme, Klinsman and Mattheus all played. When Holland got them it was high fives all round...suckers.

Romania??..nobody had a clue and this was Iron Curtain days. You had no hope of naming any of their players but sure anything was better than West Germany. Romania were a good team and Ireland just bored them to death. Hagi kept taking shots from 2000 yards out...a glory hole as they said in the school yard.

Mentally I think QF was it for Ireland.

I agree. I was relieved we got Romania and at the time I thought we'd beat them easily. I didn't know too much about them and based my relief on a friendly in Lansdowne in the build up to Euro 88. But it turned out to be tougher than I envisioned.

Yeah Lacatus was missing, but a nation held its breath anyway. Romania went home, unlike most of their few fans that got to Italy. That was funny and yet sad.

cml387 · 14-07-2020 1:45pm

Lovely tribute by David Squires in today's Guardian

Jack Charlton has died

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