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The decline of Irish journalism

  • 12-07-2020 10:43am
    #1
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭


    When I say decline, I am not just talking about the quality of the trade, but the exodus of journalists to take up government positions.

    I checked online yesterday about the departure of Fiach Kelly, deputy political editor of The Irish Times, for the job as special advisor to to Helen McEntee, the minister for justice, but there was nothing to be found online, except on a Times (The Times) article. Another departure was that of Susan Mitchell, deputy editor of The Sunday Business Post (SBP), who also took up the position of adviser to Stephen Donnelly, the health minister.
    To quote The Times article:
    "This means two journalists who would ordinarily have held the new government to account will instead be working for it."

    There appears to be an exodus from Irish newspapers and RTE for jobs in governmental buildings in the last couple of years, which would lead one to question if the main reason why the quality of Irish journalism has degraded to such an extent is due to the possibility of prospective jobs in government for them if they are supportive of government initiatives and policies.

    To me, Irish journalists should have an adversarial relationship with government in order to keep them honest, but this is not evident for the most part in the last number of years in Ireland.
    So who is the public's advocate? Who will ask the really important questions that are not really being asked? Is the concept of impartial investigative reporting in Ireland gone for good?
    I initially thought that being very liberal in media was just the current fad for Irish journalists, but apparently there is a prospective pot of gold for those journalists and editors who play well with government in the form of future tax payer funded State employment.

    I think that stinks.


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Comments

  • #2
    Invidious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Invidious


    Kivaro wrote: »
    To me, Irish journalists should have an adversarial relationship with government in order to keep them honest, but this is not evident for the most part in the last number of years in Ireland.

    Funded by a licence fee imposed by the very same government it should be holding to account, RTE has always found it more advantageous to be deferential to those in power, rather than adversarial.

    Other media outlets have bowed to political correctness. For example, it is now impossible for any Irish journalist to give an accurate portrayal of traveller culture. Unless the article is about the plight of a poor ethnic minority oppressed by the racist settled people, a report won't see the light of day.

    The British media does a better job of holding Ireland to account than the Irish media. The Sunday Times exposed the Pamela Izebekhai scam when the Irish media were all fawning over her and demanding that she be granted asylum.


  • #3
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Print media is on its knees, online news media cant generate enough ad revenue to keep afloat, paywalls dont entice people in . Decent journalists have been leaving in droves for years to work in politics, PR or other places because theres no stable future in papers/online journalism


  • #4
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Invidious wrote: »

    The British media does a better job of holding Ireland to account than the Irish media. The Sunday Times exposed the Pamela Izebekhai scam when the Irish media were all fawning over her and demanding that she be granted asylum.

    The Sunday Times also broke the news about the Social Democrats candidate Ellie Kisyombe, who lied in her Irish asylum application. She secured a student visa in Ireland, before travelling to the UK and claiming asylum there. When that failed, she came back to Ireland. As expected in Ireland, she was eventually granted leave to remain. The Pamela Izebekhai scam cost the Irish tax payer over €1 million in costs before finally deporting her back to Nigeria.

    Isn't it a bit odd that it takes an English newspaper to bring these stories to the fore?


  • #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Its the lack of sport,hurling in particular

    Theres nothing left,worth reporting on :(


  • #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Print media is on its knees, online news media cant generate enough ad revenue to keep afloat, paywalls dont entice people in . Decent journalists have been leaving in droves for years to work in politics, PR or other places because theres no stable future in papers/online journalism

    The work load is crazy and it's very hard to have a balanced family life working as a political journalist. Constant online demands while also needing to put out a paper each night is driving journalists out of the game. Fiach Kelly's wife is also a pol cor and they have a young family so I would imagine something had to give.


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  • #7
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    Print media is on its knees, online news media cant generate enough ad revenue to keep afloat, paywalls dont entice people in . Decent journalists have been leaving in droves for years to work in politics, PR or other places because theres no stable future in papers/online journalism

    I'd agree with that as far as young and mid-level journalists go. If you're Deputy Editor at a national your future in the industry is fairly secure; that's not why they're jumping ship.

    I listen to the Irish Times Politics podcast and I like it because they can give a bit more colour and background to situations that you don't get in a newspaper article - but the election coverage was so soft on establishment parties it was pretty farcical.


  • #8
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I'd agree with that as far as young and mid-level journalists go. If you're Deputy Editor at a national your future in the industry is fairly secure; that's not why they're jumping ship.

    I listen to the Irish Times Politics podcast and I like it because they can give a bit more colour and background to situations that you don't get in a newspaper article - but the election coverage was so soft on establishment parties it was pretty farcical.
    That's why I used two deputy editors as examples in my OP.
    Why are they jumping ship?


  • #9
    mr_edge_to_you
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    This is what happens when people aren't prepared to pay for stuff. Same thing has been happening in music for the last 20 years. Standards slip!

    I appreciate that the Irish Independent may not be to everyone's liking but I am more than happy to pay a couple of euro each week/month to keep it going.


  • #10
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,186 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Kivaro wrote: »
    That's why I used two deputy editors as examples in my OP.
    Why are they jumping ship?

    It's probably hard to draw inferences from two individuals whose personal circumstances would have played a larger role in their move than the general atmosphere in print journalism.

    That said, print is seeing it's death by a thousand cuts though happen right in front of it, quality throughout the industry is much lower that it was in the mid 90s. Journos are and will be exiting the papers looking for more stable employment.

    It had been mooted by Timmy Dooley in the last Dail that a FF government would consider introducing payments to media in order to maintain a plurality of voices. I wonder will t that go anywhere now?


  • #11
    Invidious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Invidious


    Kivaro wrote: »
    That's why I used two deputy editors as examples in my OP.
    Why are they jumping ship?

    No newspaper job in Ireland, however senior, can be seen as secure at the present time.

    The sector is facing unprecedented headwinds. Readership for print journalism is declining dramatically in the face of competition from the Internet. The Sunday Business Post almost ceased publication a few years ago, before it was sold to a private equity firm. Now, Covid-19 has further impacted ad revenue and sales. The paper has cut salaries and is depending on state support.

    Right now, a secure government job looks far better than anything the journalism sector has to offer, which probably explains why senior figures are jumping ship.


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  • #12
    IRE60
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭IRE60


    There are many reasons for the decline - I attach the primary offender!


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Invidious wrote: »

    Right now, a secure government job looks far better than anything the journalism sector has to offer, which probably explains why senior figures are jumping ship.
    It isn't secure, though. Political advisers do not have permanent contracts, their employment may be ceased when the Minister leaves office. The current Ministers are likely to be reshuffled in 2 years, and people like Susan Mitchell will probably be out of a job.

    We needn't be too cynical, though, in some cases people are taking these jobs to make a positive contribution to society. I believe Mitchell fits into that category, you can't doubt her passion for good health-policy. Probably the most informed and effective health journalist the country has ever had.


  • #14
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    The internet has transformed the way we get and collate information.
    I think we are seeing the decline of activist journalists, and the rise of citizen journalists.


  • #15
    Cal4567
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    I'd be a good example. Grew up buying a daily paper, but about 20 years ago, found I only had time to read the weekends, then it would be Wednesday, 3 days later, before I had even finished that. Took The Sunday Times, found the INDO more and more little more than a comic. Got more and more fed up with more 'analysis' than news.

    Time changes everything and time has come for the print media. I have I think a wide circle of friends. I only know of two who have subscribed to the IT, no one who pays for the INDO.

    What I had read in recent years, it seemed I was reading PR from the establishment parties. No thanks.


  • #16
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Maybe I used the wrong word "decline" in the thread title.
    What I was getting at was the decline in quality, impartiality, etc.
    The recent Irish Times Kitty Holland's poorly written story on the homeless mother in the car comes to mind.

    The decrease of advertising, the advance of online media etc. and especially Covid-19 are understandable reasons for the physical decline of Irish journalism. What I wanted to discuss is the lack of journalistic integrity and impartiality on many reports and opinion pieces that are presented by journalists and editors in Ireland; that's the decline I'm talking about.


  • #17
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Money. That would be my first guess as to why journalists make the move into the political fold. It's something that has been going on for years, back to the days of Sean Duignan and Fergus Finlay. It's a well paid job for minimum 4/5 years, probably longer, and it's a calculated gamble they'll have options if or when it comes to an end. Cathy Herbert, Mark Costigan, Chris O'Donoghue all people who had high profile media jobs that went into government, just off top of my head. Agree irish journalism not in rude health but this is symptom rather than cause.


  • #18
    boombang
    Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭boombang


    The bleeding heart garbage that Kitty Holland keeps writing about homelessness (when there is a serious housing affordability problem) must drive the proper journos at the Irish Times crazy. How the editors keep printing that nonsense is amazing.


  • #19
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Its the loss of quality that is causing a decline in sales. I havent bought The Sun since they dropped the Page 3 glamour section. How often did the delights of Sam Fox, Linda Lusardi etc brighten up a dreary morning?


  • #20
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    boombang wrote: »
    The bleeding heart garbage that Kitty Holland keeps writing about homelessness (when there is a serious housing affordability problem) must drive the proper journos at the Irish Times crazy. How the editors keep printing that nonsense is amazing.

    The irish times is doomed to incorrectly re write history. I hope in 50 years time nobody dares utter a word una mullally wrote and thinks it was in any way truthful or how the nation felt about anything


  • #21
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,186 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Maybe I used the wrong word "decline" in the thread title.
    What I was getting at was the decline in quality, impartiality, etc.
    The recent Irish Times Kitty Holland's poorly written story on the homeless mother in the car comes to mind.

    The decrease of advertising, the advance of online media etc. and especially Covid-19 are understandable reasons for the physical decline of Irish journalism. What I wanted to discuss is the lack of journalistic integrity and impartiality on many reports and opinion pieces that are presented by journalists and editors in Ireland; that's the decline I'm talking about.

    Rightly or wrongly, you wouldn't expect an article written by Kitty to take a different slant on that particular issue.

    When her name is under the byline, I would never expect a "this woman did it to herself" type article.


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  • #22
    Oscar Madison
    Registered Users Posts: 688 ✭✭✭Oscar Madison


    Cal4567 wrote: »
    What I had read in recent years, it seemed I was reading PR from the establishment parties. No thanks.

    Completely agree with this and the reason why we don't purchase newspapers anymore. Without a doubt censorship or restrictions play a big part also in how a reporter can tell the story!


  • #23
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    I subscribe to one national and one international newspaper, at a total cost of €13/month.

    Anyone who never, ever buys a paper, subscribes to a news site, or clicks on an ad but complains about the decline in quality journalism is part of the problem.


  • #24
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,186 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    boombang wrote: »
    The bleeding heart garbage that Kitty Holland keeps writing about homelessness (when there is a serious housing affordability problem) must drive the proper journos at the Irish Times crazy. How the editors keep printing that nonsense is amazing.

    Housing and homelessness are bundled together as the same issues when they are completely different. Housing is an affordability problem, where working families have found themselves priced out of renting and buying in good locations - forcing them Into unsustainable commutes.

    Homelessness on the other hand, is about addiction services and has been around forever. I suspect if the affordability problem was solved to a reasonable extent then homelessness wouldn't even be on the political radar.


  • #25
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    mr_edge_to_you wrote: »
    This is what happens when people aren't prepared to pay for stuff. Same thing has been happening in music for the last 20 years. Standards slip!

    I appreciate that the Irish Independent may not be to everyone's liking but I am more than happy to pay a couple of euro each week/month to keep it going.

    I read the indo most days. They have also gone down the route of throwing anti Trump pieces in at every opportunity just to fill a few more inches.


  • #26
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Oscar Madison wrote: »
    Completely agree with this and the reason why we don't purchase newspapers anymore. Without a doubt censorship or restrictions play a big part also in how a reporter can tell the story!
    So here is the question:
    If there was a newspaper/media outlet that echoed the sentiments of the majority in this country, would it be successful?

    I'm talking about a centrist-leading news source; not left or right. At the moment, all of the main Irish papers and RTE have a left liberal leaning perspective on stories, which is why Traveller "homeless" stories, and reports on Direct Provision, asylum seekers etc. take a certain slant ..... and generally without an opposing view presented.

    If, for example, the Irish Times became more centrist; would we buy more papers/subscriptions from them?


  • #27
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,186 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I subscribe to one national and one international newspaper, at a total cost of €13/month.

    Anyone who never, ever buys a paper, subscribes to a news site, or clicks on an ad but complains about the decline in quality journalism is part of the problem.

    Take the IT or the Indo, why would I subscribe to it when it's quality is so poor? The country doesn't need agenda driven reporting, it needs fair reporting.
    If either or both go to the wall then so be it. They haven't added anything to the national conversation in years.


  • #28
    Oscar Madison
    Registered Users Posts: 688 ✭✭✭Oscar Madison


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I subscribe to one national and one international newspaper, at a total cost of €13/month.

    Anyone who never, ever buys a paper, subscribes to a news site, or clicks on an ad but complains about the decline in quality journalism is part of the problem.

    We live in a very small country and whether you like it or not, it is a very controlled country we live in in all aspects of live.
    If I want to buy Pravda to which in my mind The Irish Independent has become and believe the propaganda they spout in
    the sacred name of journalism that I am an idiot who deserves nothing more than contempt for supporting such a print!


  • #29
    EchoIndia
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    dancinpants wrote: »
    The work load is crazy and it's very hard to have a balanced family life working as a political journalist. Constant online demands while also needing to put out a paper each night is driving journalists out of the game. Fiach Kelly's wife is also a pol cor and they have a young family so I would imagine something had to give.


    Anyone who may think that being an advisor to a senior Minister in an exposed brief is going to be easier than being a journalist is mistaken.


  • #30
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Take the IT or the Indo, why would I subscribe to it when it's quality is so poor? The country doesn't need agenda driven reporting, it needs fair reporting.
    If either or both go to the wall then so be it. They haven't added anything to the national conversation in years.
    Oscar Madison wrote: »
    We live in a very small country and whether you like it or not, it is a very controlled country we live in in all aspects of live.
    If I want to buy Pravda to which in my mind The Irish Independent has become and believe the propaganda they spout in
    the sacred name of journalism that I am an idiot who deserves nothing more than contempt for supporting such a print!

    What news outlets have you been relying on for updates during the Covid 19 outbreak in Ireland, and how do you support them?


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  • #31
    KungPao
    Registered Users Posts: 4,781 ✭✭✭KungPao


    I might start buying ‘the paper’ again. Just thinking about it now, I miss turning the pages and reading about stuff I wouldn’t necessarily read online. Even stupid stuff like the horoscope and Hagar the Horrible or The Far Side sketches, personal ads etc.

    It gives your eyes a break from bright screens too.

    We’ll be misty eyed when they’re gone, but it’s our own fault.


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