Marvel's Black Widow

pixelburp · 07-07-2020 10:07pm

Ha, I like how the wording tries to persuade they were all so blown away by Pugh's performance they just decided to retire Natasha. Not that, ya know, the more famous star was probably done with Black Widow - and Pugh is cheaper than pulling a Downey Jr. with Johansson and paying her squillions.

Rodin · 07-07-2020 10:08pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The Black Widow teaser trailer is due to be released next week as a bonus feature on the Endgame release on Digital and Blu Ray.

The trailer was shown in a behind closed doors screening at Comic Con.

Filming started a few weeks ago.

Zero interest.
Boring character and acted woodenly.

FunLover18 · 07-07-2020 10:10pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Ha, I like how the wording tries to persuade they were all so blown away by Pugh's performance they just decided to retire Natasha. Not that, ya know, the more famous star was probably done with Black Widow - and Pugh is cheaper than pulling a Downey Jr. with Johansson and paying her squillions.

Also Natasha is dead. To undo that would just be seen as lazy.

pixelburp · 07-07-2020 10:12pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

Also Natasha is dead. To undo that would just be seen as lazy.

Oh yeah. Dunno why but I completely forgot that happened.

Rodin · 07-07-2020 10:40pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Oh yeah. Dunno why but I completely forgot that happened.

She's very forgettable.

johnny_ultimate · 07-07-2020 10:52pm

Florence Pugh is one of the most formidable and capable young performers working at the moment, with several absolutely killer performances under her belt in just a few short years. I hope she doesn’t get stuck in the Marvel content mill. I mean, Scarlett Johansson is also an actor of top-tier capability when she has the right material (Under the Skin, Her, Lost in Translation, Marriage Story...) but she’s wasted in most of the Marvel fare she’s been in. Hopefully this standalone one gives both of them something substantial (well, by MCU standards) to work with.

Brian? · 08-07-2020 6:54am

Rodin wrote: »

Zero interest.
Boring character and acted woodenly.

I agree. Which is crazy, given that Scarlet Johansen is the most accomplished actor in any of the Marvel films. She's a much better actor than anyone else I can think of in the MCU. Benedict Cumberbatch (sp?) may edge her out, but no one else comes close.

p to the e · 08-07-2020 9:45am

Brian? wrote: »

I agree. Which is crazy, given that Scarlet Johansen is the most accomplished actor in any of the Marvel films. She's a much better actor than anyone else I can think of in the MCU. Benedict Cumberbatch (sp?) may edge her out, but no one else comes close.

Well there's a bold statement. I don't think Johansson is even the best actress in the MCU (Tilda Swinton, Brie Larson, Natalie Portman) never mind her male counterparts.

Rockbeast2 · 08-07-2020 12:01pm

p to the e wrote: »

Well there's a bold statement. I don't think Johansson is even the best actress in the MCU (Tilda Swinton, Brie Larson, Natalie Portman) never mind her male counterparts.

I just started working my way back on the male side and stopped very quickly:

Robert Redford
Anthony Hopkins
Michael Douglas
Samuel L. Jackson
Tommy Lee Jones
Ben Kingsley
Jeff Bridges
William Hurt
...

I doubt husky-voiced Scarlet would make my combined Top 30 TBH.

johnny_ultimate · 08-07-2020 12:12pm

I'd pretty comfortably say Scarlett Johansson has the most great roles under her belt of any of the 'main' Marvel heroes, putting aside supporting actors and the like. Ruffalo has a pretty respectable filmography so he'd be the main competitor, and Cumberbatch is a talented chap who just hasn't been in that many good films (The Imitation Game is a perfect example - strong performance in a weak film). Olsen and Larson have some great performances under their belt, albeit only a few each. But in terms of volume of really strong performances across a pretty wide variety of films? Johansson seems like a pretty clear winner on a quick count, and arguably the one worst-served by the MCU films so far despite that.

p to the e · 08-07-2020 2:35pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I'd pretty comfortably say Scarlett Johansson has the most great roles under her belt of any of the 'main' Marvel heroes, putting aside supporting actors and the like. Ruffalo has a pretty respectable filmography so he'd be the main competitor, and Cumberbatch is a talented chap who just hasn't been in that many good films (The Imitation Game is a perfect example - strong performance in a weak film). Olsen and Larson have some great performances under their belt, albeit only a few each. But in terms of volume of really strong performances across a pretty wide variety of films? Johansson seems like a pretty clear winner on a quick count, and arguably the one worst-served by the MCU films so far despite that.

Robert Downey Jr has been in the game a long time and before he went down the Marvel route he had a lot of good roles under his belt, both TV and film. If we're talking recently then I'd say she definitely has had the better roles but overall career-wise it could be closer than you think. A similar argument could be made for Don Cheadle and Gwyneth Paltrow, depending on if you want to count her or not. Let's not forget Josh Brolin also.

Brian? · 08-07-2020 3:02pm

p to the e wrote: »

Well there's a bold statement. I don't think Johansson is even the best actress in the MCU (Tilda Swinton, Brie Larson, Natalie Portman) never mind her male counterparts.

I didn't say she was the best. I meant she's had more outstanding performances in films outside the MCU. Particularly Lost in Translation.

You're right about Tilda Swinton. Unbelievable actress whos had some great roles.

Nathalie Portman is a good one. I forgot about her. She's had a very similar career to Johansen. Her Star Wars and Thor roles are real low points though.

Redford is in with a shout, but not Michael Douglas.

Brian? · 08-07-2020 3:05pm

p to the e wrote: »

Robert Downey Jr has been in the game a long time and before he went down the Marvel route he had a lot of good roles under his belt, both TV and film. If we're talking recently then I'd say she definitely has had the better roles but overall career-wise it could be closer than you think. A similar argument could be made for Don Cheadle and Gwyneth Paltrow, depending on if you want to count her or not. Let's not forget Josh Brolin also.

Robert Downey Jr has spent 30 years being Robert Downey Jr in films. Don Cheadle has had an ok career playing minor parts. Gwyneth Paltrow eclipses both of those, but not Johansen.

Brolin was great in one film

Mr Crispy · 08-07-2020 3:40pm

Well, if we're including actors who've only appeared in one of the MCU movies, then Cate Blanchett has to be up there.

CastorTroy · 08-07-2020 8:25pm

Ben Kingsley has them all best. He was in Thunderbirds

Brian? · 08-07-2020 8:55pm

I'm starting to think it's easier to name actors who weren't in an MCU film.

Wrongway1985 · 08-07-2020 10:13pm

Rockbeast2 wrote: »

I just started working my way back on the male side and stopped very quickly:

Robert Redford
Anthony Hopkins
Michael Douglas
Samuel L. Jackson
Tommy Lee Jones
Ben Kingsley
Jeff Bridges
William Hurt
...

None of them play lead roles in the MCU??

Tommy Lee Jones going about 20 years barely a notable performance Rolling Thunder perhaps? until JFK, of course his career took off particularly with the Fugitive but amazing to think 4 years after the Client Johanssen was already then on the radar with the Horse Whisperer opposite Robert Redford funnily enough.

Unlike Tommy Lee Jones William Hurts early career is where he shines most but I think you must be confusing him with British actor John Hurt to consider his body of work stronger than Johanssens tbh.

When it comes to the actors who play characters in MCU with their own stand alone movies with this upcoming flick gotta agree with Johnny Ultimate none of the rest come close whatsoever.

Wrongway1985 · 08-07-2020 10:26pm

Mr Crispy wrote: »

Well, if we're including actors who've only appeared in one of the MCU movies, then Cate Blanchett has to be up there.

Kurt Russell,Rebecca Hall and Forest Whitaker are some others also with one to their name.

Brian? · 08-07-2020 10:45pm

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

Kurt Russell,Rebecca Hall and Forest Whitaker are some others also with one to their name.

Scarlett was in more great films in 2003 than Kurt Russell was in his whole career!

Seriously, read through her IMDb. It’s unreal.

johnny_ultimate · 08-07-2020 11:01pm

Surprised there’s even any debate over it TBH

I mean Johansson is now into her third decade of acclaimed performances and she’s only 35! For every forgettable blockbuster (and she’s had a few!) there’s an offbeat choice or award-winning effort. Would struggle to mention any other “movie star” with a performance as audacious as Under the Skin on their CV - let alone one who had such a role at the height of their fame. And I’m not sure anyone else has managed TWO good performances in Woody Allen films since some time in the early 80s :pac: Superb actress, and long may her blockbuster work be matched with indie curveballs and oddities.

ixoy · 08-07-2020 11:11pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Would struggle to mention any other “movie star” with a performance as audacious as Under the Skin on their CV

Re-watched this on Sunday and it was an impressive step for her to do. Financially, it wouldn't have been worth her time so she obviously saw it as a way to flex her acting muscles on what's quite an art house film with minimal dialogue.

Homelander · 09-07-2020 12:01am

I wouldn't claim Scarlett Johansson is anything other than a very good actress but I wouldn't agree she's the best in the MCU, not by a long shot.

Having said that, she is better than a lot of the "main" characters with far more depth and range. In general I mean, not within the MCU.

p to the e · 09-07-2020 10:12am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Surprised there’s even any debate over it TBH I mean Johansson is now into her third decade of acclaimed performances and she’s only 35! For every forgettable blockbuster (and she’s had a few!) there’s an offbeat choice or award-winning effort. Would struggle to mention any other “movie star” with a performance as audacious as Under the Skin on their CV - let alone one who had such a role at the height of their fame. And I’m not sure anyone else has managed TWO good performances in Woody Allen films since some time in the early 80s :pac: Superb actress, and long may her blockbuster work be matched with indie curveballs and oddities.

That film blew me away and scared the crap out me in equal measure. And some people didn't rate it but I really liked "Ghost in the Shell".

What about Ed Norton? Are we pitting him against ScarJo in this celebrity death-match?

I get what you're saying. She's a fantastic actress who has been in this game since childhood and still managed to survive. And yes her character was mismanaged from the very beginning. They wanted a curvy sexpot in there but didn't know exactly what to do with her apart from that. I just don't think she's completely unchallenged in the best acting chops in the MCU.

pixelburp · 09-07-2020 10:32am

ixoy wrote: »

Re-watched this on Sunday and it was an impressive step for her to do. Financially, it wouldn't have been worth her time so she obviously saw it as a way to flex her acting muscles on what's quite an art house film with minimal dialogue.

Under the Skin is my cinematic blindspot, or that joke everyone else in the room seems to find hilarious except me, as I sit thinking "I don't get it".

Cos, like, I don't get it. Nor would I consider myself illiterate in the ways of cinema. A hauntingly beautiful piece to look at for sure, but beyond the superficial found it a tedious slog of navel-gazing better suited to a short film than a full length feature. Those stretches of Scarlett Johannson pottering around Glasgow in a Ford van just felt like a moodier version of those hidden camera shows; maybe it's just cos I have pottered around the slummier versions of Glasgow, I don't find anything remarkably transcendent about the Hollywood actor in a wig chatting to "real" locals.

Honestly, the book it was based on sounded much more interesting, as the overblown, crazed satire of consumerism that IIRC it was meant to be. Instead ... I dunno, definitely one of the few movie hills I might just die on. Not going to use the word that sounds like "rover-bated", but yeah. It eludes me 'cos I didn't find 90 minutes of "emotional vacant creature wanders around being lonely, with occasional abstract murder" that engaging.

Brian? · 09-07-2020 10:42am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Surprised there’s even any debate over it TBH I mean Johansson is now into her third decade of acclaimed performances and she’s only 35! For every forgettable blockbuster (and she’s had a few!) there’s an offbeat choice or award-winning effort. Would struggle to mention any other “movie star” with a performance as audacious as Under the Skin on their CV - let alone one who had such a role at the height of their fame. And I’m not sure anyone else has managed TWO good performances in Woody Allen films since some time in the early 80s :pac: Superb actress, and long may her blockbuster work be matched with indie curveballs and oddities.

Her performance in Jojo Rabbit was brilliant too. How many other actors/actresses has the versatility to appear in Lost in Translation, Jojo Rabbit, Isle of Dogs, The Girl with the Pearl Earring and Marvel films?

She’s a movie star one minute and a brilliant indie actress another. I actually think she’s underrated because she’s so beautiful.

As an interesting aside. She was at a table opposite mine for dinner one time. Dressed in a tracksuit and I was stunned at how beautiful she is in real life. I tried my best to pretend she wasn’t there, but it was tough to do.

p to the e · 09-07-2020 11:27am

Brian? wrote: »

As an interesting aside. She was at a table opposite mine for dinner one time. Dressed in a tracksuit and I was stunned at how beautiful she is in real life. I tried my best to pretend she wasn’t there, but it was tough to do.

Dades · 09-07-2020 3:17pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Under the Skin is my cinematic blindspot, or that joke everyone else in the room seems to find hilarious except me, as I sit thinking "I don't get it".

Cos, like, I don't get it. Nor would I consider myself illiterate in the ways of cinema. A hauntingly beautiful piece to look at for sure, but beyond the superficial found it a tedious slog of navel-gazing better suited to a short film than a full length feature. Those stretches of Scarlett Johannson pottering around Glasgow in a Ford van just felt like a moodier version of those hidden camera shows; maybe it's just cos I have pottered around the slummier versions of Glasgow, I don't find anything remarkably transcendent about the Hollywood actor in a wig chatting to "real" locals.

Hah I think I agree. It was interesting for sure. A weird movie I'm glad I watched. But mainly remarkable just to see such an A list actor in it.

Wrongway1985 · 09-07-2020 4:31pm

Brian? wrote: »

Scarlett was in more great films in 2003 than Kurt Russell was in his whole career!

Seriously, read through her IMDb. It’s unreal.

Wasn't making a case for Kurt up against Scarlett or anything just hadn't seen him mentioned yet.

But had a gander anyway

2 strong flicks in 2003 but very different films than Kurts best stuff tbf like The Thing,Bone Tomahawk etc.

FunLover18 · 09-07-2020 6:23pm

Not surprised to see Bradley Cooper hasn't been mentioned yet, I often forget myself that he's in the MCU.

To the the thread slightly back on topic, we now also have Rachel Weisz as well.

09-07-2020 6:48pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I'd pretty comfortably say Scarlett Johansson has the most great roles under her belt of any of the 'main' Marvel heroes, putting aside supporting actors and the like. Ruffalo has a pretty respectable filmography so he'd be the main competitor, and Cumberbatch is a talented chap who just hasn't been in that many good films (The Imitation Game is a perfect example - strong performance in a weak film). Olsen and Larson have some great performances under their belt, albeit only a few each. But in terms of volume of really strong performances across a pretty wide variety of films? Johansson seems like a pretty clear winner on a quick count, and arguably the one worst-served by the MCU films so far despite that.

I actually think Olsen is sort of unfortunate to have ended up in the MCU so early in her career. She's superb in her smaller roles.

Guy:Incognito · 12-07-2020 3:19pm

Brian? wrote: »

I didn't say she was the best. I meant she's had more outstanding performances in films outside the MCU.

Saying shes much better than anyone else is very much saying shes the best.

Brian? wrote: »

She's a much better actor than anyone else I can think of in the MCU. .

Brian? · 13-07-2020 8:48am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Saying shes much better than anyone else is very much saying shes the best.

Fair enough. I misspoke. I meant she had a much better career, she’s had better roles than anyone else.

She is definitely a better actor than most.

titan18 · 13-07-2020 9:19am

I'd say she's got the most big time roles and performances out of any of the main cast, although I'd say Ruffalo is the best actor there, and RDJ and Renner actually have as many Oscar noms.

When you go through the supporting characters and villains though, she doesn't come close imo. There's lots of extremely talented actors and actresses there who've been around years (aforementioned Douglas, Blanchett, Del Toro, Hopkins etc) or younger ones like Cooper, Hiddleston, and Michael B Jordan who have been very impressive in films over the last 10 years, and Norton is technically part of the MCU as it is, so he blows most away both on talent and big time performances.

Brian? · 13-07-2020 10:58am

titan18 wrote: »

I'd say she's got the most big time roles and performances out of any of the main cast, although I'd say Ruffalo is the best actor there, and RDJ and Renner actually have as many Oscar noms.

When you go through the supporting characters and villains though, she doesn't come close imo. There's lots of extremely talented actors and actresses there who've been around years (aforementioned Douglas, Blanchett, Del Toro, Hopkins etc) or younger ones like Cooper, Hiddleston, and Michael B Jordan who have been very impressive in films over the last 10 years, and Norton is technically part of the MCU as it is, so he blows most away both on talent and big time performances.

I would put Scarlett Johansen on a par with Norton and Blanchett in terms of talent and above all of the rest you mention.

Cooper, Huddleston and Jordan are nowhere in the same league.

Hopkins wins though, I'll give you that.

B.A._Baracus · 13-07-2020 11:15am

Brian? wrote: »

... As an interesting aside. She was at a table opposite mine for dinner one time. Dressed in a tracksuit and I was stunned at how beautiful she is in real life. I tried my best to pretend she wasn’t there, but it was tough to do.

I am not a pervert by any means... but (always a but lol) I would get a nice long good stare as she walked away :pac:

To be fair I wouldn't be the only one. Check out John Favreau's eyes.

CastorTroy · 13-07-2020 11:55am

That's just him being supportive since she was showing off her walk so he had to look in order to give feedback if needed.

At least that'd be my cover story

Brian? · 14-09-2020 7:44pm

Rewatched “Under the Skin” last night. Scarlett is unbelievably good in it.

FunLover18 · 14-09-2020 9:10pm

Brian? wrote: »

Rewatched “Under the Skin” last night. Scarlett is unbelievably good in it.

I watched up until the family on the beach, far too bleak and slow for me.

Brian? · 15-09-2020 12:35pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

I watched up until the family on the beach, far too bleak and slow for me.

That scene was tough to watch, my wife was watching from behind her hands.

I love slow films mostly. I think it really suits Johansen's style to be in a much slower paced film.

FunLover18 · 15-09-2020 6:02pm

Brian? wrote: »

That scene was tough to watch, my wife was watching from behind her hands.

I love slow films mostly. I think it really suits Johansen's style to be in a much slower paced film.

I don't mind slow as long as the story is engaging, this was just a bit too arty for me. I don't mean that in a condescending way, from what I saw it was well made, it's just not for me.

pixelburp · 23-09-2020 8:29pm

Unsurprisingly, this has been officially pushed back from its November release, to March 2021.

Josey Wales · 23-09-2020 8:33pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Unsurprisingly, this has been officially pushed back from its November release, to March 2021.

It is actually May 2021.

pixelburp · 23-09-2020 8:43pm

Josey Wales wrote: »

It is actually May 2021.

The article I read said March 7, so unless these are differing countries?

titan18 · 23-09-2020 8:52pm

pixelburp wrote: »

The article I read said March 7, so unless these are differing countries?

May 7th, so likely typo

pixelburp · 23-09-2020 9:34pm

Fair enough. To the point it seems like 2020 is finally being given up on. There's still a few holdouts but you'd imagine they'll quickly follow suit.

Agent Coulson · 23-09-2020 9:46pm

Come January it could all change again if there is no sign of a vaccine.

I wonder would Disney consider giving some more of it's big name releases that they have in the can the Mulan treatment.

FunLover18 · 23-09-2020 9:47pm

I wonder if a year's break from Marvel movies might actually be a good thing, even the fans were expressing a sense of fatigue especially after the the climactic ending to the Infinity Saga.

Homelander · 23-09-2020 10:16pm

FunLover18 wrote: »

I wonder if a year's break from Marvel movies might actually be a good thing, even the fans were expressing a sense of fatigue especially after the the climactic ending to the Infinity Saga.

It certainly can't hurt. I could probably be convinced to be dragged to Black Widow in 2021, but if it had released as intended, zero chance I had any interest.

Two reasons - a) Marvel fatigue as you describe but more so than that b) I hate off-shoot prequels when you know the endgame (no pun intended) and realistically, there's very little depth Black Widow is gonna add to what we've already seen in the MCU.

Like, I've basically zero interest in Black Widows backstory, she was perfectly fine in MCU, but I never found myself hungry to know more.

I did see a trailer for Wanda-Vision the other day and that looks 10X more compelling then Black Widow ever could.

titan18 · 23-09-2020 11:14pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Come January it could all change again if there is no sign of a vaccine.

I wonder would Disney consider giving some more of it's big name releases that they have in the can the Mulan treatment.

I'm guessing Mulan didn't make do that well on it. Imagine if it had, Disney would have released Black Widow on it.

Soul (new Pixar film) will be interesting to see. That's still down for November after being delayed from June, and fits the Mulan treatment as it's for kids/families so the cost doesn't hit as bad. They could push that close to Christmas and make decent money over the holidays I reckon

pixelburp · 24-09-2020 12:07pm

Homelander wrote: »

It certainly can't hurt. I could probably be convinced to be dragged to Black Widow in 2021, but if it had released as intended, zero chance I had any interest.

Two reasons - a) Marvel fatigue as you describe but more so than that b) I hate off-shoot prequels when you know the endgame (no pun intended) and realistically, there's very little depth Black Widow is gonna add to what we've already seen in the MCU.

Like, I've basically zero interest in Black Widows backstory, she was perfectly fine in MCU, but I never found myself hungry to know more.

I did see a trailer for Wanda-Vision the other day and that looks 10X more compelling then Black Widow ever could.

That's a fair reading: by 2021 I might have accumulated some degree of interest in the MCU again, as for me the franchise has been hampered by EndGame's own success and narrative structures. That film felt not just like the end of an era - but the franchise as a whole TBH. Spider-Man: Homecoming did nothing for me precisely because it had that sense of an elongated coda for something done & dusted. 20+ films and EndGame said, "we're here, thanks for coming on the journey".

Marvel's Black Widow

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