Galway light rail, my idea for a route

averagejoesgym · 01-07-2020 3:42pm #1

Hello,

With more time on my hands recently I drew on a map what I thought would be a useful route for light rail in Galway.

I feel the majority of traffic in Galway is people coming into the city to work/study and to also shop. Therefore I think there should be another solution to decrease future traffic other than just a bypass.

This route focuses on providing three Park&Ride facilities in Oranmore (for Oranmore, Kinvarra etc), Briarhill (for M6 and Claregalway/Carnmore) and Tuam Rd (for Tuam etc).

The route also passes through some of the key places people work e.g. Parkmore, Liosban, NUIG and UHG.

I'm more familiar with East side of city. Therefore I'm not sure if the route west of city is going to the right places.

There would be a high frequency bus connecting Ceannt station and station at the Cathedral.

Places that are not served on the route e.g. Renmore, Mervue/Ballybane, Ballinfoyle and Salthill could be connected to the light rail route up with bus routes.

What do people think of the route?

DuckSlice · 01-07-2020 3:47pm

I think you need it to be a continuous line. If I had to go from east to west, having to get 2 trains and a bus I would just take my car.

blueshark2 · 01-07-2020 3:54pm

Have you seen the research that came out of NUIG on possible routes for a single line? Galway is quite rectangular, so a single line may be suitable.

You would definitely want to replace that bus link in the middle and join up east and west, otherwise the commuter routes between Knocknacarra and Parkmore would be impractical with rail-bus-rail.

Well done for exploring ideas!
It would be great to have some kind of interactive city infrastructure design map where the general public or academics could collaborate on designs. Something with some inbuilt traffic models or journey data would be excellent... find a solution to minimise the total daily journey time.

averagejoesgym · 01-07-2020 4:04pm

I have a version drawn onto google maps but I was having difficulty uploading it.

averagejoesgym · 01-07-2020 4:10pm

I think that second image I uploaded is very low quality. It must be hard to make out.

Thanks for the reply. I agree it would be much better if it could run through city centre as one line. I think the old train from connemara used to cross corrib near NUIG and go through a Tunnel under Bohermore and arrive at Ceannt station.

I was thinking it would be great if that could be done again. But there must be a lot of buildings built blocking that route now.

averagejoesgym · 01-07-2020 4:18pm

blueshark2 wrote: »

Have you seen the research that came out of NUIG on possible routes for a single line? Galway is quite rectangular, so a single line may be suitable.

I hadn't came across that research before. Thanks for pointing it out to me. The rectangular shape makes sense how it would suit a light rail line.

blueshark2 · 01-07-2020 4:22pm

I would ditch the extension to Oranmore train station and try run the single line near Ceannt station, external rail passengers could join there. I'd then route the east of the line up by Boston Scientific, around the back of the racecourse to Parkmore and from there out to a big Park & Ride at the airport.

Clever city-wide public transport ticketing should allow train users to come from Oranmore and join the light rail on the same ticket.

In the west I'd extend out further to a car park too. There is an existing council car park behind Texaco on the Barna Road that is very quiet Mon-Fri. Go from there, up the Cappagh road and across Knocknacarra.

blueshark2 · 01-07-2020 4:24pm

averagejoesgym wrote: »

I hadn't came across that research before. Thanks for pointing it out to me. The rectangular shape makes sense how it would suit a light rail line.

Their research was very mathematical, there might be other practical considerations to feed into an improved route. From what I remember it didn't the cross-city commuting well.

averagejoesgym · 01-07-2020 4:34pm

blueshark2 wrote: »

I would ditch the extension to Oranmore train station and try run the single line near Ceannt station, external rail passengers could join there. I'd then route the east of the line up by Boston Scientific, around the back of the racecourse to Parkmore and from there out to a big Park & Ride at the airport.

Clever city-wide public transport ticketing should allow train users to come from Oranmore and join the light rail on the same ticket.

In the west I'd extend out further to a car park too. There is an existing council car park behind Texaco on the Barna Road that is very quiet Mon-Fri. Go from there, up the Cappagh road and across Knocknacarra.

Yeah Galway Airport Park&Ride makes sense as it is very close to the M6 junction for Oranmore/Claregalway.

I also thought a Park&Ride on the West side would be a good idea but I just couldn't decide how far to extend the line. That's a good location you mentioned.

averagejoesgym · 01-07-2020 4:45pm

I have found a route through city centre that allows a single continuous line west to east. The corner building (old 2 story building) highlighted in yellow would need to be knocked down but the rest is along existing road.

The route would follow the same path as old railway bridge over corrib.

01-07-2020 5:07pm

averagejoesgym wrote: »

I have found a route through city centre that allows a single continuous line west to east. The corner building (old 2 story building) highlighted in yellow would need to be knocked down but the rest is along existing road.

The route would follow the same path as old railway bridge over corrib.

You'll have an issue with the hill. Its why there use to be a tunnel there for the old clifden line

https://goo.gl/maps/BdS28YLhL6uHfTHm8

Mrs OBumble · 01-07-2020 8:03pm

blueshark2 wrote: »

Their research was very mathematical, there might be other practical considerations to feed into an improved route. From what I remember it didn't the cross-city commuting well.

Cross city commuters don't want to go through the city centre. But in a city of 80k people it's very hard to afford both orbital and thru-the-centre-routes: there just aren't enough passengers for both.

I remain sceptical about how many Knocknacarra to Parkmore commuters there really are.

Psychlops · 01-07-2020 9:25pm

averagejoesgym wrote: »

Hello,

With more time on my hands recently I drew on a map what I thought would be a useful route for light rail in Galway.

I feel the majority of traffic in Galway is people coming into the city to work/study and to also shop. Therefore I think there should be another solution to decrease future traffic other than just a bypass.

This route focuses on providing three Park&Ride facilities in Oranmore (for Oranmore, Kinvarra etc), Briarhill (for M6 and Claregalway/Carnmore) and Tuam Rd (for Tuam etc).

The route also passes through some of the key places people work e.g. Parkmore, Liosban, NUIG and UHG.

I'm more familiar with East side of city. Therefore I'm not sure if the route west of city is going to the right places.

There would be a high frequency bus connecting Ceannt station and station at the Cathedral.

Places that are not served on the route e.g. Renmore, Mervue/Ballybane, Ballinfoyle and Salthill could be connected to the light rail route up with bus routes.

What do people think of the route?

Great route & hitting the good population spots but I would not break it up with buses, also id go back farther west to Barna & take in Salthill too.

JCX BXC · 01-07-2020 11:41pm

Barring the fact that a city of 80k is much too small for a light rail, bus connections make it completely unworkable, so remove them. With the money you'd spend on a light rail, you could have an extremely efficient bus service. Those living in Ballybane/Mervue or attending GMIT won't be too enticed by a bus-rail-bus-rail connection to get to NUIG/UHG.

There's no real capacity issues on the bus services in Galway, I'm not sure why you'd build a light rail. Traffic reasons? Lots of road solutions before you spend absurd amounts of money on a vanity project. Most arguments I've seen seem to boil down to a "Dublin has it so we should have it".

I'm all for regional development, and while I'd love to see a light rail in Galway, the cost and benefit of such a project don't correlate well. Thankfully, it's not really given the time of day by those who have a say.

blueshark2 · 02-07-2020 9:22am

JCX BXC wrote: »

With the money you'd spend on a light rail, you could have an extremely efficient bus service.

Very true.

A high frequency bus route over and back the city might allow a lot of two-part journeys to combine to one. We would need bus lanes at the pinch points though.

Wompa1 · 02-07-2020 10:04am

JCX BXC wrote: »

There's no real capacity issues on the bus services in Galway, I'm not sure why you'd build a light rail. Traffic reasons?

There's a massive problem with quality of service with the buses. One good thing with a train is that it's mostly automated and not susceptible to a driver decided he couldn't be arsed and just driving past the stop. With an automated system they can also accurately report on delays. There would be much more room for wheelchairs and bikes too.

donvito99 · 02-07-2020 1:38pm

Wompa1 wrote: »

There's a massive problem with quality of service with the buses. One good thing with a train is that it's mostly automated and not susceptible to a driver decided he couldn't be arsed and just driving past the stop. With an automated system they can also accurately report on delays. There would be much more room for wheelchairs and bikes too.

You'd address those quality issues for a fraction of the cost of a rail based solution, though.

Wompa1 · 02-07-2020 3:12pm

donvito99 wrote: »

You'd address those quality issues for a fraction of the cost of a rail based solution, though.

Or so you'd think....

They put the signs above the bus stops and either don't have them on or show they don't have data. The not bothering to pick people up is cultural, can't change that easily. Buses don't operate on an always on rail with sensors so some of the real time data can't be automated and reliable. Will require operation from a Bus driver and for points already raised, they hasn't and likely won't work in future.

Scrap the bus companies, sack everyone and start again? How much would that cost?

Whereisgalway · 02-07-2020 7:44pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

. With the money you'd spend on a light rail, you could have an extremely efficient bus service.

AND CYCLE system

CowboyTed · 03-07-2020 4:27am

Wompa1 wrote: »

There's a massive problem with quality of service with the buses. One good thing with a train is that it's mostly automated and not susceptible to a driver decided he couldn't be arsed and just driving past the stop. With an automated system they can also accurately report on delays. There would be much more room for wheelchairs and bikes too.

Bendy buses have nearly all this...

The Bus Lanes today don't carry the same amount of people the car lanes do...

I would prefer to see some testing to see if Galway people would actually take the bus... Not trying to be smart, but before we plough money into this, how about we rent a few buses and try somethings out during the quieter times of the year...

For Example... We have an undisrupted cycle lane from Knocknacknacarra to Ballybrit. How much people do we see actually cycling to work?

Also where are the bus timetables for the east of the city published?

ben.schlomo · 03-07-2020 7:33am

CowboyTed wrote: »

Bendy buses have nearly all this...

The Bus Lanes today don't carry the same amount of people the car lanes do...

I would prefer to see some testing to see if Galway people would actually take the bus... Not trying to be smart, but before we plough money into this, how about we rent a few buses and try somethings out during the quieter times of the year...

For Example... We have an undisrupted cycle lane from Knocknacknacarra to Ballybrit. How much people do we see actually cycling to work?

Also where are the bus timetables for the east of the city published?

Bus eireann website, same as the other city timetables.

biko · 03-07-2020 7:46am

Keep it light rail.
There are other threads for buses and bikes.

Mrs OBumble · 03-07-2020 7:47am

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Bus eireann website, same as the other city timetables.

NTA website is better, 'cos it lists all companies.

www.a-b.ie

biko · 03-07-2020 7:49am

OBumble don't post in this thread until Sunday

blueshark2 · 03-07-2020 8:17am

biko wrote: »

Keep it light rail.
There are other threads for buses and bikes.

You closed the other main traffic thread 3 days ago...?

biko · 03-07-2020 8:28am

You're right. Main traffic thread reopened.

Fitz* · 03-07-2020 8:59am

To be honest, bus timetables in Galway don't matter a jot as they are not followed. It's 2020 and still we have to have the system of 'wait at the stop and hope a bus shows up soon'.

A light rail system would follow a timetable though.

biko · 03-07-2020 9:10am

Light rail would "always" be on time since it has a dedicated track etc.

When I lived in Adelaide they still had the old school trams, they'd fit in with Galway too.

Whereisgalway · 03-07-2020 9:24am

biko wrote: »

Keep it light rail.
There are other threads for buses and bikes.

This is a pie in the sky thread surely anything goes

biko · 03-07-2020 9:39am

It does not.
Please stay on topic in every thread.

Whereisgalway · 03-07-2020 9:46am

biko wrote: »

It does not.
Please stay on topic in every thread.

Has funding been granted or a proposal been actually drafted for a light rail? Does anyone actually hand on heart think Galway will have one in the next 30years?

blueshark2 · 03-07-2020 10:14am

I always think it's funny how it's generally considered outlandish for Galway to have a light rail system. Yet for 39 years we actually had one! The Galway-Salthill tramway. That's when Galway City had a population of around 13,000.

One reason for the attitude is obviously how much the cost of transport infrastructure construction has spiralled. I'd love to see a comparison of the cost of a historic system when adjusted for inflation. Often a project like this is estimated, but they spiral up to the latest high tech tram solution when perhaps it can be done cheaper with some "minimal viable" option.

Another reason is I think Galway has a small town attitude. That contributes hugely to the charm of the city, but I think it also leads to us thinking big projects are only for "the big cities". I find myself guilty of that attitude.

Maybe we should dream big again, maybe we can have the shiny things (with an electric motor this time rather than horses)!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway_and_Salthill_Tramway

http://www.tramwaybadgesandbuttons.com/page148/page149/styled-245/page668.html

Whereisgalway · 03-07-2020 10:15am

Galway is a large town not a city

timmyntc · 03-07-2020 10:15am

From a practical point of view - where is there the land to fit a light rail track?
Space is already at a premium, unless we dig up the few bus lanes and stick in tram lines instead?

donvito99 · 03-07-2020 10:22am

timmyntc wrote: »

From a practical point of view - where is there the land to fit a light rail track?
Space is already at a premium, unless we dig up the few bus lanes and stick in tram lines instead?

If you can CPO for a bypass you can CPO/restrict car access for public transport.

Trams and buses could share a lane, although buses and trams have mixed poorly in Dublin as of late with both systems suffering as a consequence.

JCX BXC · 03-07-2020 11:00am

blueshark2 wrote: »

I always think it's funny how it's generally considered outlandish for Galway to have a light rail system. Yet for 39 years we actually had one! The Galway-Salthill tramway. That's when Galway City had a population of around 13,000.

Clifden had a railway, West Clare had a railway, are those lines also viable, simply because they had one before?

Bizzare thing to say. Historical demand doesn't mean current demand.

fergiesfolly · 03-07-2020 12:46pm

If I can ask the stupid question... when we say tram, do we mean 3,4 or 5 carriages?
Would a tram in the city work with only one or two? Surely that would work in the city centre?

biko · 03-07-2020 1:00pm

I don't know what OP had in mind but if we consider that double decker buses have approx 80 seats then you'll need 2 modules to cover that.
But they should probably add on more

CowboyTed · 03-07-2020 9:56pm

The main thing I was getting at before... Galway people don't use public transport and correspondingly Galway has a poor public transport system...

But look at the Westside where there is a bus lane, it is pretty unused and doesn't carry any where near what the car lane does during peak hours... The lane while having potential to carry a lot of people faster than a car, the reality is that it is slower and less efficient use of space.

The same can be said for the cycle lane from Knocknacarra to Ballybrit...

So before we go down the route of an expensive light rail system, shouldn't we know even for a few weeks that Galway people would use public transport?

averagejoesgym · 03-07-2020 10:12pm

I think trialling ideas like those mentioned bendy buses, temporary additional bus lanes and trial uninterrupted cycle lane Knocknacarra to Ballybrit would be a great idea.

With regards to light rail I was thinking a good step forward would be to identify a route across the city connecting residential and working areas. Designate it as a potential future light rail line and take the light rail line into account in future planning decisions.

Any green field site that the potential light rail track runs on could be now converted into an extra wide cycle lane. If the light rail never came to fruition, it would be no harm to have extra cycle lanes.

averagejoesgym · 03-07-2020 10:21pm

timmyntc wrote: »

From a practical point of view - where is there the land to fit a light rail track?
Space is already at a premium, unless we dig up the few bus lanes and stick in tram lines instead?

I was thinking along the lines of making the roads affected by having track on them into one way roads.

Making lough atalia and college road one way temporarily before didn't seem to work out too badly.

Although the difficult I see with running a light rail on roads would be the overhead line would affect trucks or any tall vehicles turning at juntions.

CowboyTed · 04-07-2020 2:59am

averagejoesgym wrote: »

I think trialling ideas like those mentioned bendy buses, temporary additional bus lanes and trial uninterrupted cycle lane Knocknacarra to Ballybrit would be a great idea.

With regards to light rail I was thinking a good step forward would be to identify a route across the city connecting residential and working areas. Designate it as a potential future light rail line and take the light rail line into account in future planning decisions.

Any green field site that the potential light rail track runs on could be now converted into an extra wide cycle lane. If the light rail never came to fruition, it would be no harm to have extra cycle lanes.

he way I see trailing is say start in Easter holidays (2 weeks) and if successful push for another 4 weeks and then review...

If it works great... If not it was either only 2/4 weeks mistake... No problem, learn and get back to fixing it...

Everything I see is slow and unchangeable... No trial and error... Error is important, Error is learning... It also builds trust...

I personally would love to trail a HOV solution... I don't know if it would work but I know to get it a 4 week trail is a lot simpler...

ceatharloch · 14-07-2020 2:11pm

Two different comments on the light-rail-route, if we were to have one line:

1) Go to GOOGLE maps for Galway City and suburbs, and put an X wherever there is a large shopping center. So, from the west, we have (Galway Retail Park (Knocknacarra)) - (Westside) - (Eyre Square Shopping Center) - (Galway Shopping Center (Terryland) - (Wellpark) - (Briarhill Shopping Center). Then, try to join the dots. You'll find you can more-or-less draw a straight line through the Xs (except for towards the "center" of Galway, where you'd have to chose either Eyre Square Shopping Center or Galway Shopping Center). What about this for a TRAM route?
2) Methinks way too much emphasis is placed on tram that would bring people from residential areas to suburban "work areas". Consider (a) Such routes are used for MAX 3 hours in morning and 3 in evening Mon-Fri (30 hours per week), (b) After current pandemic, many more people may work from home, (c) what about trams linking shopping areas, city center, cinemas/libraries/churches/sports-complexes, etc.? A sizable fraction of Galway City works near the City Center - a tram going near there serves those workers, and serves everyone else who goes to the city center any time to shop/leisure/restaurants/pubs, and of course, what is never mentioned, get to Train/Coach stations to get to Dublin City and Dublin Airport.

CowboyTed · 14-07-2020 3:01pm

ceatharloch wrote: »

Two different comments on the light-rail-route, if we were to have one line:

1) Go to GOOGLE maps for Galway City and suburbs, and put an X wherever there is a large shopping center. So, from the west, we have (Galway Retail Park (Knocknacarra)) - (Westside) - (Eyre Square Shopping Center) - (Galway Shopping Center (Terryland) - (Wellpark) - (Briarhill Shopping Center). Then, try to join the dots. You'll find you can more-or-less draw a straight line through the Xs (except for towards the "center" of Galway, where you'd have to chose either Eyre Square Shopping Center or Galway Shopping Center). What about this for a TRAM route?
2) Methinks way too much emphasis is placed on tram that would bring people from residential areas to suburban "work areas". Consider (a) Such routes are used for MAX 3 hours in morning and 3 in evening Mon-Fri (30 hours per week), (b) After current pandemic, many more people may work from home, (c) what about trams linking shopping areas, city center, cinemas/libraries/churches/sports-complexes, etc.? A sizable fraction of Galway City works near the City Center - a tram going near there serves those workers, and serves everyone else who goes to the city center any time to shop/leisure/restaurants/pubs, and of course, what is never mentioned, get to Train/Coach stations to get to Dublin City and Dublin Airport.

Rent a bunch of bendy buses, take the streets for 4 weeks (first week can be schools off, allow to bed in) and trial it... Give over bus lanes where tram lanes would exist... Run a timetable and see how it goes...

Whereisgalway · 15-07-2020 8:26pm

CowboyTed wrote: »

Rent a bunch of bendy buses, take the streets for 4 weeks (first week can be schools off, allow to bed in) and trial it... Give over bus lanes where tram lanes would exist... Run a timetable and see how it goes...

The attitude of see how it goes is a recipe for disaster, I’d sooner whatever is in charge doesn’t allow themselves to be influenced by lobby groups, actually does Research and sticks & stand by to the decisions they make

donvito99 · 15-07-2020 8:40pm

Whereisgalway wrote: »

The attitude of see how it goes is a recipe for disaster, I’d sooner whatever is in charge doesn’t allow themselves to be influenced by lobby groups, actually does Research and sticks & stand by to the decisions they make

Replace "see how it goes" with 'trial period'. Disaster averted. Some buses and some repurposed streets will cost next to nothing, the only expenditure would be in political capital, some signs and some enforcement.

ceatharloch · 19-07-2020 8:08am

Following my last post - I'm not necessarily saying this is the right criterion to use, but see picture of how colinear all the shopping precincts in Galway City are.......

Whereisgalway · 19-07-2020 11:03am

ceatharloch wrote: »

Following my last post - I'm not necessarily saying this is the right criterion to use, but see picture of how colinear all the shopping precincts in Galway City are.......

Where ya getting the funding from?

04-10-2021 1:14pm

This is on the long finger again

From the NDP published today

while the feasibility of light rail in Galway will be considered again as part of the review of the Galway Transport Strategy (which will commence in 2022).

So the next GTS review, starting in 2022, finishing in 2023, possibly 2024, will say a feasibility study should be done.

The feasibility study will be put forward in 2025, maybe get funding by 2027, get started by 2028 and completed by 2030.

Then it will take 1-2 years more while its being reviewed.

Then it will go through the 13 year process to actually get built, making it about 2045 by the time it will actually open. I'll be able to use the free travel pass by then ugh

Galway light rail, my idea for a route

Comments