Masks

polesheep · 30-06-2020 07:22PM

Wibbs wrote: »

By shutting down the country and most businesses and restricting movements and gatherings of people. That's how infections came down. Now we are reopening the country and many businesses and allowing movement and more gatherings of people. The direct opposite of what reduced the infection rate, but the virus is still out there contained in pockets for the moment. And I hope it stays that way.

OK I reduce the flow of water in my bath by turning the tap down, if I open the tap up again does the water flow magically stay reduced? Of course not. This is really simple stuff. It's not rocket surgery, yet some can't seem to join the obvious dots.

Analogies, ok. You turn on your tap to fill a bath. You turn it off when the bath is full. You have achieved your aim. A full bath is infections reduced to near zero. The water flowing from the tap is restrictions. Simple stuff, not 'rocket surgery'.

30-06-2020 07:32PM

polesheep wrote: »

Why is no one wearing masks now?

Western culture, complacency, and governments telling people they weren't necessary in order to have the stocks for front-line workers.

Edit: I misunderstood. No one is wearing them here because there hasn't been any community transmission in ages and anyone arriving has a forced two-week quarantine in a facility. And they're only letting in Vietnamese people and some high value foreign experts / diplomats, who also have to do the quarantine.

odyssey06 · 30-06-2020 07:32PM

polesheep wrote: »

Analogies, ok. You turn on your tap to fill a bath. You turn it off when the bath is full. You have achieved your aim. A full bath is infections reduced to near zero. The water flowing from the tap is restrictions. Simple stuff, not 'rocket surgery'.

A full bath is infections reduced to near zero?
Read that back to yourself and then come back when you start making sense.

This pandemic started with a single case.
It is still raging globally and breaking out locally around the EU.
Our borders are not closed.

SeaBreezes · 30-06-2020 07:37PM

No: I don't care enough

polesheep wrote: »

Analogies, ok. You turn on your tap to fill a bath. You turn it off when the bath is full. You have achieved your aim. A full bath is infections reduced to near zero. The water flowing from the tap is restrictions. Simple stuff, not 'rocket surgery'.

So, following your analogy, masks are the plug stopping the bath from emptying.. (stopping covid19 spread) no masks, no way to stop.the bath emptying.... though the analogy hurts my head

Wibbs · 30-06-2020 08:48PM

Yes: other

dfx- wrote: »

Did you not also reckon that everyone would abide by the rules once it was dictated by the Government? Because we love to follow the rules. It isn't the case.

Because it hasn't been dictated by the government and certainly not enforced, so my opinion on our adherence or not still stands. Never mind the many months of government mixed messages like experts wheeled saying masks magically stopped working outside medical settings and "practice respiratory hygiene" by hacking into one's elbow. If regulations and enforcement comes in we'll comply. Just like we did with reduced travel.

It is a hand virus when you touch your face 20 times. Or can we restart shaking hands?

If it was being transmitted so readily by the fomites route then it would be spreading like wildfire through things like shopping and shopping habits, shared surfaces on public transport and the like. It isn't. The hand washing was a cheap and easy risk reducer to roll out and it is a risk reducer if done properly. Given the number of morons we've all seen out and about wearing gloves and masks incorrectly and not practicing distancing, you can imagine how many are actually washing their hands correctly, but even partial compliance works.

I've no clue regarding pointless country comparisons? Do you mean feeling happy we're doing better than sh1tshows like the UK, while ignoring the countries who did far better than us almost all of which had mask wearing, better border controls and contact tracing? Those comparisons? If so my point in that case still stands.

Arrival · 30-06-2020 10:05PM

polesheep wrote: »

We've brought infections down without mandatory masks. Why shouldn't we be able to keep them down without mandatory masks?

That was a result of everyone being in a lockdown and isolated from other people for multiple months, so how can you think the virus would spread in the same way when everyone's at home as when everyone's getting back out and mingling again? Do you genuinely not see how ridiculous it is to think that? And the lockdown can't continue as it'll destroy the economy and people need to get back out and able to work and live some bit of a life.

If the virus is easy to trace, as in the HSE can trace all contacts as it's amongst family and friends, it makes it easier to isolate the virus. When there's a high rate of the virus spreading in the general public amongst random people it is basically impossible to trace and isolate it and it begins spreading exponentially - this is what happened in March and led to the lockdown to get the spreading back under control. So right now we are back to where we were at the beginning basically, so what have we learned and how can we behave proactively to prevent the same situation happening again? Adhere to the normal guidelines as well as wear a mask while in relevant public areas where spreading and picking up the virus from random people is possible so it can be easily traced and isolated. It's very illogical to take the approach that we should wait until the spread amongst the community picks up before wearing masks, we should just adjust to having them be part of the measures of dealing with this pandemic now.

Someone posted this very good article in here recently that discusses a couple of new studies, please read it as it explains the issues which have made masks very important for this specific virus; it is due to the spreading of it from people who don't realise they have it and have no symptoms: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/asymptomatic-covid-19-1.5629172?fbclid=IwAR3sgwYqXQ6hfcCmaHPlr9aHvVpcEFG4eYTYiNMFHL_BfAczGQnnyG6KJaY

Watts said she thinks the finding in this study that people without symptoms shed the virus longer than people with symptoms is "shocking" and suggests we need to worry about transmission from asymptomatic people.

"Until we have a vaccine, I think we should have very clear recommendations that everybody wears masks."

If someone STILL doesn't understand the reasoning after reading that article then they're honestly hopeless cases

Seanergy · 30-06-2020 10:14PM

Yes: valved

tom1ie wrote: »

How do we know cases in supermarket staff aren’t higher than general public? Do we have a study to prove disprove this? Genuine question.

polesheep wrote: »

Yes, it is known that only around twenty supermarket staff have tested positive out of 8,000 or more. It was posted much earlier by a number of posters. I think Is-that-so linked to it.

polesheep wrote: »

Can you explain the supermarkets?

Incorrect it is unknown. 8000 staff were not tested, your shaping facts out of pure BS.

Isthatso did link to this article Supermarket staff largely evade virus in Ireland afew days ago in this thread.

Pure bogus is the only way to describe that article, it's not a study and should not be used or promoted as factual by anyone, doing so is irresponsible. I contacted the author after reading said article and I am still awaiting a reply.

The DOH has said no breakdown was available of the jobs of those who had tested positive for the virus. The DOH only has HCW breakdown stats.

Nobody knows anything about spread in supermarkets and or shops or any other indoor place of business that was open during the lockdown.

McGiver · 30-06-2020 10:27PM

No: I don't care enough

polesheep wrote:

We never had house arrest. I hated the restrictions, but they could not be compared to house arrest.

FFS man stop this, you're trolling.

You know very well what we mean by "House arrest" - it was the harsh restriction not to go more than 2 km and then 5 km from home, people couldn't see their families etc.

This was such a huge restriction of personal liberties that it's incomparable in degree to restriction of one's civil liberty by the state mandating masks indoors and crowded places.

Covering my gob in the certain places doesn't prevent me fro seeing family, travelling and living pretty normal life!

Totally incomparable and anyone trying to compare the two is an idiot or a troll or a demagogue.

Assetbacked · 30-06-2020 10:48PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

xhomelezz wrote: »

Why would we wait FFS? It's the same approach like at the start of pandemic. Ah sure it's just a flu, nothing to worry about.. Where did we ended up? Over 1700 deaths and counting, big damage to economy, unemployment. I don't want to be taking any steps back, if possible. It's easier to wear the mask to keep numbers as low as possible till there is vaccine, or effective treatment, while we enjoy free movement and all other things. Simple logic, but only works when majority wears them.

Over 1700 deaths, of covid or with covid? As well, these deaths were in line with the average age for dying in Ireland. But that stat in any event is so meaningless to justify a call to make them mandatory now.

You need to get this into your head, we do mot need to try to get cases to 0 "until there's a vaccine", we lockdown a few months, bolster up hospital capacity and ride the waves of being able to treat cases until either the vaccine arrives, herd immunity is obtained or the virus just dies away. You probably think social distancing will last for another 6 months or more too. Masks have their place, but our numbers do not justify making them mandatory currently.

lcstress2012 · 30-06-2020 10:50PM

No: other

McGiver wrote: »

Give me a f*cking break really....

There's no virus, we don't need masks!

What an idiot, there’s a global pandemic killing thousands of course there’s a virus!!

MipMap · 30-06-2020 11:01PM

Yes: homemade

McGiver wrote: »

FFS man stop this, you're trolling.

And, Just like the virus, as long as people keep feeding ....

Seanergy · 30-06-2020 11:08PM

Yes: valved

Assetbacked wrote: »

Masks have their place, but our numbers do not justify making them mandatory currently.

Your perspective reminds me of the snow policy at Dublin airport.

They let it build up and up, hoping it might not stick/get worse until they have to shut it down.

Dublin airport is possibly the last captial airport in Europe that does not operate a clean as it snows/as a plane goes system.

We are not in a snowstorm presently but their are snow flakes falling.

MipMap · 30-06-2020 11:15PM

Yes: homemade

Assetbacked wrote: »

Masks have their place, but our numbers do not justify making them mandatory currently.

How many people would you like to see in ICU before we can "justifiably" come to the conclusion that we should have made them mandatory about a month earlier ?

Assetbacked · 30-06-2020 11:21PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Seanergy wrote: »

Your perspective reminds me of the snow policy at Dublin airport.

They let it build up and up, hoping it might not stick/get worse until they have to shut it down.

Dublin airport is possibly the last captial airport in Europe that does not operate a clean as it snows/as a plane goes system.

We are not in a snowstorm presently but their are snow flakes falling.

There aren't snowflakes falling. Unless you have numbers that contradict the published statistics, there is no indication we have a community transmission problem to try to contain by introducing mandatory wearing of masks currently. What are you even talking about? The point you're making is just whataboutery! What attitude are you talking about and show me data that backs it up?

Edit: I will take this as your resignation to my POV when you're talking about snow FFS.

Assetbacked · 30-06-2020 11:24PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

MipMap wrote: »

How many people would you like to see in ICU before we can "justifiably" come to the conclusion that we should have made them mandatory about a month earlier ?

A lot more than we've had in ICU for the past few weeks anyway! I am pointing to the real data about how low our hospital and ICU numbers are relative to capacity in an ever decreasing trend combined with an ever reducing community transmission set of data for infections, you are making arbitrary points to back up your hysteria about masks.

MipMap · 30-06-2020 11:29PM

Yes: homemade

Assetbacked wrote: »

A lot more than we've had in ICU for the past few weeks anyway! I am pointing to the real data, you are making arbitrary points to back up your hysteria about masks.

Nothing arbitrary or hysterical. I am agreeing with the CMO, Anthony Fauci, The WHO, ECDC. all of whom recognize that this virus needs to be treated with caution. They don't know what the trajectory of this virus will be and neither do I nor does a single expert anywhere in the world because it's behaviour is dictated by random chance.

It's only geniuses like you who think you can take chances with it.
You are the outlier. Not me.

My point is, and you don't get it, is that when you see it is getting bad it is then too late to react. Same point Seanergy was making.

Assetbacked · 30-06-2020 11:32PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

MipMap wrote: »

Nothing arbitrary or hysterical. I am agreeing with the CMO, Anthony Fauci, The WHO, ECDC. all of whom recognize that this virus needs to be treated with caution. They don't know what the trajectory of this virus will be and neither do I nor does a single expert anywhere in the world.

It's only geniuses like you who think you can take chances with it.
You are the outlier. Not me.

Prove the data you seem to have access to shows a different situation to the official data we have published in Ireland and not just make vague reference to opinions expressed by individuals. Until then, I just think you're digging yourself a bigger hole.

And I am not the outlier, just on this thread maybe, but not in the general public. There, you are the outlier.

MipMap · 30-06-2020 11:34PM

Yes: homemade

Assetbacked wrote: »

Prove the data you seem to have access to shows a different situation to the official data we have published in Ireland and not just make vague reference to opinions expressed by individuals. Until then, I just think you're digging yourself a bigger hole.

Rubbish.

I just told you.

I have no DATA

No one does least of all you.

Assetbacked · 30-06-2020 11:35PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

MipMap wrote: »

Rubbish.

I just told you.

I have no DATA

No one does least of all you.

Haha. What? Now you're trolling. Admitting you have no DATA, thanks for finally admitting defeat. As for my data, have you not been following the daily reported figures in Ireland for the past few months and the hospital figures?

MipMap · 30-06-2020 11:38PM

Yes: homemade

Assetbacked wrote: »

Haha. What? Now you're trolling. Admitting you have no DATA, thanks for finally admitting defeat. As for my data, have you not been following the daily reported figures in Ireland for the past few months and the hospital figures?

Are you aware that the world is a bigger place than Ireland?

polesheep · 01-07-2020 12:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Western culture, complacency, and governments telling people they weren't necessary in order to have the stocks for front-line workers.

Edit: I misunderstood. No one is wearing them here because there hasn't been any community transmission in ages and anyone arriving has a forced two-week quarantine in a facility. And they're only letting in Vietnamese people and some high value foreign experts / diplomats, who also have to do the quarantine.

But it's still raging around the world. Surely masks are a good precaution against it taking off again? Or is that just for Ireland?

polesheep · 01-07-2020 12:20AM

Arrival wrote: »

That was a result of everyone being in a lockdown and isolated from other people for multiple months, so how can you think the virus would spread in the same way when everyone's at home as when everyone's getting back out and mingling again? Do you genuinely not see how ridiculous it is to think that? And the lockdown can't continue as it'll destroy the economy and people need to get back out and able to work and live some bit of a life.

If the virus is easy to trace, as in the HSE can trace all contacts as it's amongst family and friends, it makes it easier to isolate the virus. When there's a high rate of the virus spreading in the general public amongst random people it is basically impossible to trace and isolate it and it begins spreading exponentially - this is what happened in March and led to the lockdown to get the spreading back under control. So right now we are back to where we were at the beginning basically, so what have we learned and how can we behave proactively to prevent the same situation happening again? Adhere to the normal guidelines as well as wear a mask while in relevant public areas where spreading and picking up the virus from random people is possible so it can be easily traced and isolated. It's very illogical to take the approach that we should wait until the spread amongst the community picks up before wearing masks, we should just adjust to having them be part of the measures of dealing with this pandemic now.

Someone posted this very good article in here recently that discusses a couple of new studies, please read it as it explains the issues which have made masks very important for this specific virus; it is due to the spreading of it from people who don't realise they have it and have no symptoms: https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/asymptomatic-covid-19-1.5629172?fbclid=IwAR3sgwYqXQ6hfcCmaHPlr9aHvVpcEFG4eYTYiNMFHL_BfAczGQnnyG6KJaY

If someone STILL doesn't understand the reasoning after reading that article then they're honestly hopeless cases

Everyone is out moving again (and have been since before the authorities said they could) and still the rate of infection is dropping.

polesheep · 01-07-2020 12:24AM

McGiver wrote: »

FFS man stop this, you're trolling.

You know very well what we mean by "House arrest" - it was the harsh restriction not to go more than 2 km and then 5 km from home, people couldn't see their families etc.

This was such a huge restriction of personal liberties that it's incomparable in degree to restriction of one's civil liberty by the state mandating masks indoors and crowded places.

Covering my gob in the certain places doesn't prevent me fro seeing family, travelling and living pretty normal life!

Totally incomparable and anyone trying to compare the two is an idiot or a troll or a demagogue.

Trolling? Are you serious? During the restrictions everyone in favour of lockdown was averse to using the words house arrest or even lockdown. Now it's suddenly fine. Get away with your trolling accusation.

skimpydoo · 01-07-2020 12:25AM

A friend of mine was in a restaurant that reopend today. He was told by the owner that the HSE said front of house staff are not to wear masks. Is this true?

Away With The Fairies · 01-07-2020 12:35AM

Yes: valved

The HSE should be held accountable for putting nurses in danger

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2561489957449382&id=1475393262725729

Away With The Fairies · 01-07-2020 12:37AM

Yes: valved

It's probably true considering that they never wanted nurses to wear masks.

This was one nurse's experience

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2561489957449382&id=1475393262725729

xhomelezz · 01-07-2020 06:19AM

Yes: valved

Assetbacked wrote: »

Over 1700 deaths, of covid or with covid? As well, these deaths were in line with the average age for dying in Ireland. But that stat in any event is so meaningless to justify a call to make them mandatory now.

You need to get this into your head, we do mot need to try to get cases to 0 "until there's a vaccine", we lockdown a few months, bolster up hospital capacity and ride the waves of being able to treat cases until either the vaccine arrives, herd immunity is obtained or the virus just dies away. You probably think social distancing will last for another 6 months or more too. Masks have their place, but our numbers do not justify making them mandatory currently.

Ah sure so we are fine, because at the moment we have enough beds in the hospitals and reproduction rate of the virus is low. Not buying this kind of logic. Reminds me start of covid in Ireland. And few months later same discussions on this thread over and over. People learnt f.. all. Masks should work as prevention while keeping other things as close to normal as possible. You might get that to your head.

Quantum Erasure · 01-07-2020 06:54AM

Assetbacked wrote: »

A lot more than we've had in ICU for the past few weeks anyway! I am pointing to the real data about how low our hospital and ICU numbers are relative to capacity in an ever decreasing trend combined with an ever reducing community transmission set of data for infections, you are making arbitrary points to back up your hysteria about masks.

Any hysteria I see isn't coming from the pro-mask side

Jim_Hodge · 01-07-2020 07:34AM

Yes: homemade

I see a blogger advocating knitted facemasks. Is that not an absurd and dangerous activity?

McGiver · 01-07-2020 07:43AM

No: I don't care enough

Assetbacked wrote:

You need to get this into your head, we do mot need to try to get cases to 0 "until there's a vaccine", we lockdown a few months, bolster up hospital capacity and ride the waves of being able to treat cases until either the vaccine arrives, herd immunity is obtained or the virus just dies away. You probably think social distancing will last for another 6 months or more too. Masks have their place, but our numbers do not justify making them mandatory currently.

There's no herd immunity to coronaviruses in general. Coronaviruses cause about 30% of all common colds (the other causes being rhinoviruses etc) - yet there's no herd immunity to common cold and common cold has not been eradicated, the coronaviruses are in circulation. This will very likely apply for Sars-cov-2 as it's a coronavirus as well.
The virus won't die sway that just won't happen.

Also, immune response to common cold coronaviruses lasts 1 to 2 years max, it is not known how long immunity will infection with Sars-cov-2 grant, but very likely it will be short, there are some studies so far showing quite weak immune response.
Herd immunity won't happen anytime soon.

Vaccine will take at least a year.

If you say numbers are too low to justify masks - are you aware of resumed international travel? The whole world is infested. Cases will be imported and initiate new outbreaks given there is no mandatory quarantine regime for incoming passengers.

Saying "don't do anything, numbers are low" is absolutely complacent and bereft of common sense risk management. It's like saying "don't do anything with a fire in your living room, it's small" - wait for their fire to engulf the whole house by when you will have no chance of extinguishing it!

Masks

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