Masks

Boggles · 30-06-2020 12:01PM

polesheep wrote: »

The people led the way in all of this. Most people realise that the community spread is so small now that masks are not necessary. Should community spread go up dramatically, I have no doubt that the people will once again lead the way and mask wearing will increase. I don't, however, consider that likely.

So close the gate after the horse has bolted.

Tork · 30-06-2020 12:10PM

Yes: to protect others

We know from other countries and regions that spikes can happen. Germany had been doing well, yet... "German authorities in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia have reimposed lockdown restrictions in two districts after a spike in cases, with more than half a million people affected" https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53149762

odyssey06 · 30-06-2020 12:18PM

polesheep wrote: »

The people led the way in all of this. Most people realise that the community spread is so small now that masks are not necessary. Should community spread go up dramatically, I have no doubt that the people will once again lead the way and mask wearing will increase. I don't, however, consider that likely.

Hopefully you are right on the first count that we won't get community spread and the second as a fallback should that eventuality occur.
But I'd rather we use a low cost measure to reduce the risk further - doesn't have to be in place tomorrow, but my concern is summer holidays abroad followed by busy buses when offices, schools and colleges reopen.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 12:21PM

Boggles wrote: »

So close the gate after the horse has bolted.

Let's take precautions against Ebola right now, after all, it only takes one infected person coming here to cause carnage. And we wouldn't want to be accused of closing the gate after the horse has bolted, would we?

Tork · 30-06-2020 12:24PM

Yes: to protect others

Strawman argument. We are talking about Covid-19 which is definitely in Ireland and has infected a lot of people, not Ebola.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 12:31PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Hopefully you are right on the first count that we won't get community spread and the second as a fallback should that eventuality occur.
But I'd rather we use a low cost measure to reduce the risk further - doesn't have to be in place tomorrow, but my concern is summer holidays abroad followed by busy buses when offices, schools and colleges reopen.

We have been taking very cautious forward steps. I don't see any reason (yet) to take backward steps. On the issue of public transport, I believe that if the authorities stated that they would be willing to allow normal capacity if people wear masks, then most passengers would wear them, under the threat of normal capacity being reduced again. It shouldn't be, and doesn't need to be, mandatory.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 12:32PM

Tork wrote: »

Strawman argument. We are talking about Covid-19 which is definitely in Ireland and has infected a lot of people, not Ebola.

Covid19 has been reduced to almost nil in the community. Ebola could arrive this evening.

Boggles · 30-06-2020 12:35PM

polesheep wrote: »

Let's take precautions against Ebola right now, after all, it only takes one infected person coming here to cause carnage. And we wouldn't want to be accused of closing the gate after the horse has bolted, would we?

Jesus I have seen some gross misuse of whataboutery in my time, but never on that scale. Congrats.

Tork · 30-06-2020 12:43PM

Yes: to protect others

polesheep wrote: »

Covid19 has been reduced to almost nil in the community. Ebola could arrive this evening.

I'm not going to get distracted by that ridiculous Ebola argument and neither should anybody else.

Covid-19 is here and has infected and killed thousands of people. It is currently at its low rate because we've all been under virtual house arrest since March. Now that people can freely move around and travel again, the risk of more people catching the virus inevitably increases. Have you not read any of the online articles about spikes and second waves? They happen when people emerge from their prisons homes and start interacting again. If putting a piece of cloth over one's nose and mouth can stop this all kicking off again, what's the big deal?

polesheep · 30-06-2020 12:51PM

Tork wrote: »

I'm not going to get distracted by that ridiculous Ebola argument and neither should anybody else.

Covid-19 is here and has infected and killed thousands of people. It is currently at its low rate because we've all been under virtual house arrest since March. Now that people can freely move around and travel again, the risk of more people catching the virus inevitably increases. Have you not read any of the online articles about spikes and second waves? They happen when people emerge from their prisons homes and start interacting again. If putting a piece of cloth over one's nose and mouth can stop this all kicking off again, what's the big deal?

Not thousands.
No house arrest.
Articles about spikes and second waves are just articles.

Imposing restrictions to protect against a second wave that may not happen is no different to imposing restrictions to protect against ebola or any other threat. The majority of people want to live their lives as free from restrictions as possible. They know there is risk but they weigh it up and make their decisions. I was in the supermarket this morning and less than 10% of people were wearing masks. That means that over 90% of the shoppers had weighed it up and decided that the risk was not great enough to wear a mask. We make those decisions both consciously and subconsciously on a daily basis.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 12:52PM

Boggles wrote: »

Jesus I have seen some gross misuse of whataboutery in my time, but never on that scale. Congrats.

When it comes to deflection, you are second to none.

Wibbs · 30-06-2020 01:04PM

Yes: other

polesheep wrote: »

The people led the way in all of this. Most people realise that the community spread is so small now that masks are not necessary. Should community spread go up dramatically, I have no doubt that the people will once again lead the way and mask wearing will increase. I don't, however, consider that likely.

The people led the way? Are you kidding? Lockdown had to be imposed from on high with this, as had work closures and travel restrictions. Before they were, even in the early days after they were you had eejits milling about in crowds. About the only thing that was for the most part adhered to by the "people" was social distancing. And when community spread was in play and infections and deaths were rising daily, few were wearing masks and many were dead set against them, including our so called experts advising the government, a number of whom made beyond idiotic statements on the virus, never mind around masks.

Read the first few pages of this thread at the height of this virus and see the attitude of the "people". And you think that if it did kick off again the same "people" would "lead the way"? My arse they would. You'd have the same moronic arguments again with what appears to be the main actual reason they're against masks is because they don't want to look like fools/we're not Asians. The original argument which had some basis of not enough PPE for health workers is a ship long sailed.

Wibbs · 30-06-2020 01:09PM

Yes: other

polesheep wrote: »

I was in the supermarket this morning and less than 10% of people were wearing masks. That means that over 90% of the shoppers had weighed it up and decided that the risk was not great enough to wear a mask. We make those decisions both consciously and subconsciously on a daily basis.

Oh right, let's make decisions based on the average person with feck all understanding of respiratory viruses. While individuals may be clever or thick or average the mob, the "people" are almost always creatures of comfortable habit and herd creatures with it. That's mob rule in essence. Not the brightest way to do things. The same "people" were stocking up on a century's worth of bog roll and losing the plot because they couldn't get a Happy Meal.

Without being told what to do most "people" would make "decisions" to not wear seatbelts and smoke 40 a day.

ginoginelli · 30-06-2020 01:11PM

Yes: surgical

I think the governments continued muddled message is one of the factors contributing to low compliance. The consensus among a large portion who are not wearing them is that they offer no protection to the individual wearing them, and only stop them infecting others, hence they selfishly dont bother. Numerous scientific studies have shown this not to be the case. Depending on the mask, 'the wearer' can be afforded a high level of protection against the infection AS WELL as protecting others.

Ideally we all wear maks to protect each other, but if the message becomes clear that the wearer is protected as well, more people will be inclined to use.

Tork · 30-06-2020 01:14PM

Yes: to protect others

polesheep wrote: »

Not thousands

So 1,735 deaths and 25,462 confirmed cases isn't thousands? https://geohive.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/a192b58ba6904c1494f651706c223520

No house arrest.

I said virtual house arrest. If not being able to legally exercise more than 2km from your home, travel just to the shops, and not being able to make a car journey without meeting a Garda checkpoint isn't a form of house arrest/restriction, I don't know what is.

Articles about spikes and second waves are just articles.

So everybody is making it all up, are they? It's all a figment of bored journalists' imaginations?

Imposing restrictions to protect against a second wave that may not happen is no different to imposing restrictions to protect against ebola or any other threat. The majority of people want to live their lives as free from restrictions as possible. They know there is risk but they weigh it up and make their decisions. I

Going by the experiences of other countries, taking restrictions now is better than it kicking off again. Leicester is in lockdown in the UK. One guy going to some nightclubs in South Korea caused a local surge. Closer to home, the Germans are grappling with the R rate going up

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Germany's coronavirus reproduction rate jumped to 2.88 on Sunday, up from 1.79 a day earlier, health authorities said, a rate showing infections are rising above the level needed to contain the disease over the longer term.
The rise brings with it the possibility of renewed restrictions on activity in Europe's largest economy - a blow to a country that so far had widely been seen as successful in curbing the coronavirus spread and keeping the death toll relatively low.
To keep the pandemic under control, Germany needs the reproduction rate to drop below one. The rate of 2.88, published by the Robert Koch Institute (RKI) for public health, means that out of 100 people who contract the virus, a further 288 people will get infected.

The problem is, you can't always trust people to do the right thing. We're not good at wearing masks in this country, whether it's ignorance or not wanting to look like an eejit or sheer pig-headedness.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 01:28PM

Tork wrote: »

So 1,735 deaths and 25,462 confirmed cases isn't thousands? https://geohive.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/a192b58ba6904c1494f651706c223520

I said virtual house arrest. If not being able to legally exercise more than 2km from your home, travel just to the shops, and not being able to make a car journey without meeting a Garda checkpoint isn't a form of house arrest/restriction, I don't know what is.

So everybody is making it all up, are they? It's all a figment of bored journalists' imaginations?

Going by the experiences of other countries, taking restrictions now is better than it kicking off again. Leicester is in lockdown in the UK. One guy going to some nightclubs in South Korea caused a local surge. Closer to home, the Germans are grappling with the R rate going up

The problem is, you can't always trust people to do the right thing. We're not good at wearing masks in this country, whether it's ignorance or not wanting to look like an eejit or sheer pig-headedness.

1,735 deaths is not thousands of deaths.

What you describe is restrictions, not house arrest (virtual or otherwise)

There are plenty of articles with a different point of view. Which should I believe?

Going by other countries experience lifting restrictions won't bring the house down. You see, it depends on how you interpret the information that is out there.

'right thing'. What you actually mean is that you can't always trust people to do whatever it is YOU want them to do.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 01:29PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh right, let's make decisions based on the average person with feck all understanding of respiratory viruses. While individuals may be clever or thick or average the mob, the "people" are almost always creatures of comfortable habit and herd creatures with it. That's mob rule in essence. Not the brightest way to do things. The same "people" were stocking up on a century's worth of bog roll and losing the plot because they couldn't get a Happy Meal.

Without being told what to do most "people" would make "decisions" to not wear seatbelts and smoke 40 a day.

It must be wonderful to be all knowing, perched on high, gazing down on 'the mob'.

odyssey06 · 30-06-2020 01:31PM

polesheep wrote: »

We have been taking very cautious forward steps. I don't see any reason (yet) to take backward steps. On the issue of public transport, I believe that if the authorities stated that they would be willing to allow normal capacity if people wear masks, then most passengers would wear them, under the threat of normal capacity being reduced again. It shouldn't be, and doesn't need to be, mandatory.

Its great if people adopt it but it's not a reliable enough measure.
At the height of the lockdown, we still needed garda checkpoints, forced closures of pubs etc and those operating businesses enforcing rules etc to ensure that the vast majority of people complied with social distancing and travel restrictions. It shouldn't have needed to be mandatory but it had to be.

Look at Leicester. We need to get the processes, habits and regulations for masks in place now. If we wait until the outbreak occurs too much time will be lost in responding.

Away With The Fairies · 30-06-2020 01:31PM

Yes: valved

weldoninhio wrote: »

I think you should contact your GP and see if he can put you in touch with someone to talk to. You seem very on edge and venting on Boards isn’t going to help it. It may even exacerbate it. I unfortunately know this from experience.

How dare you come in here and dismiss someone's concerns with this.

Chicken pox is a virus that stays with you, it lies dormant and can resurface. Herpes is the same and you can get a breakout when you're run down. Hiv is another virus that stays with you, one with no cure. It took decades to get treatment for hiv.

That's what viruses do. Now we have a brand new virus that spreads so easily and a virus that the experts don't understand. A virus that puts so much people into ICU, herpes or chicken pox doesn't do that. Symptoms that go on for 100+ days in some people. A virus that's been around for 6 months, we don't know the long term effects of this.

People who are being cautious are being labelled as living in fear and labelled as weak. And you're telling that poster to seek help for writing a bit of truth that so many people want to ignore.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 01:37PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Its great if people adopt it but it's not a reliable enough measure.
At the height of the lockdown, we still needed garda checkpoints, forced closures of pubs etc and those operating businesses enforcing rules etc to ensure that the vast majority of people complied with social distancing and travel restrictions. It shouldn't have needed to be mandatory but it had to be.

Look at Leicester. We need to get the processes, habits and regulations for masks in place now. If we wait until the outbreak occurs too much time will be lost in responding.

The bit in bold is key. We aren't at that point with the virus any longer and we shouldn't behave as though we are. With respect, I won't look at Leicester, as I think the UK has made a dog's dinner of it all.

Tokyo · 30-06-2020 01:45PM

Mod: Tempers seem to be wearing thin all around. I'd suggest that people take a step back.

Arrival · 30-06-2020 01:51PM

Boggles wrote: »

So close the gate after the horse has bolted.

We'll never behave proactively, it's actually pathetic

odyssey06 · 30-06-2020 01:54PM

polesheep wrote: »

The bit in bold is key. We aren't at that point with the virus any longer and we shouldn't behave as though we are. With respect, I won't look at Leicester, as I think the UK has made a dog's dinner of it all.

Mandatory masks on public transport isn't about behaving as if we were in lockdown. You are drawing an equivalence which doesn't exist. We are at a different stage now.

Masks are to prevent us from having to go into lockdown again. And compared with the level of the lockdown restrictions - businesses closed, public transport capacity reduced to a fraction, people unable to leave their own area, visit their families - is a proportionate, low cost, minimal inconvenience response to a potential threat which has the capacity to re-emerge.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 01:58PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Mandatory masks on public transport isn't about behaving as if we were in lockdown. You are drawing an equivalence which doesn't exist. We are at a different stage now.

Masks are to prevent us from having to go into lockdown again. And compared with the level of the lockdown restrictions - businesses closed, public transport capacity reduced to a fraction, people unable to leave their own area, visit their families - is a proportionate, low cost, minimal inconvenience response to a potential threat which has the capacity to re-emerge.

They haven't been mandatory throughout all of this and yet we've almost eradicated it from the community. Supermarket staff don't wear them and yet they have hardly been affected at all. We've opened pubs and restaurants where people will be eating and drinking, making it impossible to wear a mask. Until there is a vaccine there will always be something that is pushed for in its absence. Right now it's masks, next month it could be something else.

McGiver · 30-06-2020 02:04PM

No: I don't care enough

polesheep wrote:

Going by other countries experience lifting restrictions won't bring the house down. You see, it depends on how you interpret the information that is out there.

Wrong, outbreaks are happening. Locally. This is going to happen everywhere. Due to international travel etc.

Czechia was basically free of the virus. Now there's an outbreak in Prague.

odyssey06 · 30-06-2020 02:05PM

polesheep wrote: »

They haven't been mandatory throughout all of this and yet we've almost eradicated it from the community. Supermarket staff don't wear them and yet they have hardly been affected at all. We've opened pubs and restaurants where people will be eating and drinking, making it impossible to wear a mask. Until there is a vaccine there will always be something that is pushed for in its absence. Right now it's masks, next month it could be something else.

Because we shut almost everything and reduced public transport capacity to a quarter. We cannot keep such measures indefinitely, which is why we need other weapons for this phase.
The density of people on a packed commuter bus, train or LUAS is nothing like a supermarket or a restaurant or vast majority of pubs. It's like standing room on a terrace or concert.

Until there is a vaccine yep that's why we need masks.
I can't respond to your "Something else" comment because it's just dog whistling. Whatever the something else is debate it on its merits.

polesheep · 30-06-2020 02:06PM

McGiver wrote: »

Wrong, outbreaks are happening. Locally. This is going to happen everywhere. Due to international travel etc.

Czechia was basically free of the virus. Now there's an outbreak in Prague.

Is it bringing the house down?

tom1ie · 30-06-2020 02:08PM

Yes: to protect myself and others

polesheep wrote: »

They haven't been mandatory throughout all of this and yet we've almost eradicated it from the community. Supermarket staff don't wear them and yet they have hardly been affected at all. We've opened pubs and restaurants where people will be eating and drinking, making it impossible to wear a mask. Until there is a vaccine there will always be something that is pushed for in its absence. Right now it's masks, next month it could be something else.

Jesus Christ what a short sighted outlook.

stephenjmcd · 30-06-2020 02:09PM

polesheep wrote: »

Is it bringing the house down?

Sorry a bit off topic just thought I'd link this.

"But there is no need to panic, say Czech officials: the weekend’s surge in new coronavirus cases is largely due to blanket testing in Karviná, the site of the largest outbreak uncovered in the Czech Republic thus far.

“This is no second wave from our point of view,” Czech Health Minister Adam Vojtěch told reporters yesterday.

“Since we have been conducting massive testing in the most afflicted area now, the Karviná locality […] It concerns primarily the OKD premises.” Around 1,000 employees of the OKD mine have now tested positive for COVID-19.

https://news.expats.cz/coronavirus-in-the-czech-republic/czech-republic-coronavirus-updates-june-29-surge-in-new-cases-due-to-blanket-testing-in-karvina/[\url]

Assetbacked · 30-06-2020 02:11PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

I'm glad the vast majority of people in the general public are not as hysterical as those in this thread.

Masks

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