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Planning permission to build permanent accommodation in back garden

  • 29-06-2020 08:32PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭


    Hi all,

    I want to build a permanent concrete structure in my back garden, I have no idea where to start with this. I would like to rent the structure as living accommodation but I want to have everything done legally. What do I need to do here?

    Thanks


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I want to build a permanent concrete structure in my back garden, I have no idea where to start with this. I would like to rent the structure as living accommodation but I want to have everything done legally. What do I need to do here?

    Thanks

    You need to sit down and understand this.

    You won’t get planning.
    That’s the truth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Gumbo wrote: »
    You need to sit down and understand this.

    You won’t get planning.
    That’s the truth.

    Ok fair enough so, is it the local council objecting to it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,884 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Ok fair enough so, is it the local council objecting to it?

    It's not a question of objecting, it is a a question of implementing planning guidelines and planning laws.
    They will refuse to grant you planning which is very different from Joe Soap objecting to a planning application.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    It's not a question of objecting, it is a a question of implementing planning guidelines and planning laws.
    They will refuse to grant you planning which is very different from Joe Soap objecting to a planning application.

    Is there somewhere I can view planning guidelines and planning laws?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Ok fair enough so, is it the local council objecting to it?

    Planning Regulations.
    Building Regulations.
    Sustainable developments.
    Housing design and standards as set out by the Dept. Of Environment.

    Have a look at your local Development plan.

    What Council Area are you located in?


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  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    I want to build a permanent concrete structure in my back garden, I have no idea where to start with this. I would like to rent the structure as living accommodation but I want to have everything done legally. What do I need to do here?

    Thanks

    unless you have lands big enough to provide the requirements for two independent houses ie car park, private amenity space, refuse storage etc.. and the new houses doesnt impact on the privacy or enjoyment of the existing house, or houses in the immediate vicinity...

    then your barking up the wrong tree.

    in the vast, vast majority of cases, urban houses are on sites large enough for only one dwelling


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Planning Regulations.
    Building Regulations.
    Sustainable developments.
    Housing design and standards as set out by the Dept. Of Environment.

    Have a look at your local Development plan.

    What Council Area are you located in?

    Thanks, I am north Dublin City Council.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,203 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Go with a log cabin instead OP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭mgn


    The reason the cant is because if the give it one, the have to give it to everyone on the street if the apply, so you can see what problems that would cause.


  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Thargor wrote: »
    Go with a log cabin instead OP.

    makes no difference how its constructed

    its the use of the property which will be the issue


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    unless you have lands big enough to provide the requirements for two independent houses ie car park, private amenity space, refuse storage etc.. and the new houses doesnt impact on the privacy or enjoyment of the existing house, or houses in the immediate vicinity...

    then your barking up the wrong tree.

    in the vast, vast majority of cases, urban houses are on sites large enough for on one dwelling

    I have space for two cars maybe even three to exit the driveway without hinderance. There is access to the back garden via the side entrance and it is possible to build without looking into neighbouring windows etc. Probably a lot more to think about really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    mgn wrote: »
    The reason the cant is because if the give it one, the have to give it to everyone on the street if the apply, so you can see what problems that would cause.

    Yes I suppose you are right, but then people then go do it with a log cabin instead I look out my back window and see 3 different gardens with log cabins. One garden has a log cabin bigger than the house itself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭mgn


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    unless you have lands big enough to provide the requirements for two independent houses ie car park, private amenity space, refuse storage etc.. and the new houses doesnt impact on the privacy or enjoyment of the existing house, or houses in the immediate vicinity...

    then your barking up the wrong tree.

    in the vast, vast majority of cases, urban houses are on sites large enough for only one dwelling

    I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Thargor wrote: »
    Go with a log cabin instead OP.

    OP is not looking for a shed though.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    stevek93 wrote: »
    Yes I suppose you are right, but then people then go do it with a log cabin instead I look out my back window and see 3 different gardens with log cabins. One garden has a log cabin bigger than the house itself.

    Do they have planning?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    mgn wrote: »
    I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

    That is totally different to what the OP is talking about.
    You are talking about infill development. Which is allowed once you can meet the criteria in the local development plan.

    The OP is talking about building a structure out their back garden and trying to rent it out and classify it as a separate dwelling.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭mgn


    Gumbo wrote: »
    That is totally different to what the OP is talking about.
    You are talking about infill development. Which is allowed once you can meet the criteria in the local development plan.

    The OP is talking about building a structure out their back garden and trying to rent it out and classify it as a separate dwelling.

    What about the granny flat option.


  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mgn wrote: »
    I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

    of course... which tallies exactly with my post

    ive designed many houses for corner sites, or end of terrace where there was space to squeeze in another

    IF the site is large enough and suitable enough for a second house, it may get planning.

    however these threads tend to come on who, like the OP, wants to build something "down the bottom of the garden"and in the vast vast majority of cases this is not a runner.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,434 ✭✭✭Homer


    mgn wrote: »
    What about the granny flat option.

    Must be connected to the main dwelling in all but exceptional circumstances.


  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mgn wrote: »
    What about the granny flat option.

    any granny flat application ive been involved with has required a good, valid, provable reason as to why the structure is required... and generally its because its for someone from the family who requires independence but also a degree of care.

    There would also be a condition that the structure shall be for the enjoyment of the applicants and shall not be sold or rented... and when it ceases to be a granny flat it is to be subsumed back into the main dwelling.

    I have had to include, in some applications, drawings of how the house would work AFTER the structure is no longer a granny flat.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭mgn


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    any granny flat application ive been involved with has required a good, valid, provable reason as to why the structure is required... and generally its because its for someone from the family who requires independence but also a degree of care.

    There would also be a condition that the structure shall be for the enjoyment of the applicants and shall not be sold or rented... and when it ceases to be a granny flat it is to be subsumed back into the main dwelling.

    I have had to include, in some applications, drawings of how the house would work AFTER the structure is no longer a granny flat.

    I dident know when it ceased being a granny flat that it had to be subsumed back into the main building, is that enforced, the reason i'm asking is that i used to rent one in Dublin 16/17 years ago.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    mgn wrote: »
    I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

    I was renting a few years back, and like you said the it was the last house on the end in the cul-de sac had a little bungalow built in the back garden then using the driveway for access to the front of the property.


  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mgn wrote: »
    I dident know when it ceased being a granny flat that it had to be subsumed back into the main building, is that enforced, the reason i'm asking is that i used to rent one in Dublin 16/17 years ago.

    local authority development plans change every 5 years...
    so what happened 17 years ago may be a whole lot different from what can happen today.

    17 years ago you could move down from dublin, buy a lovely rural site in a high demand rural area, and build a huge mansion on it.

    you sure as hell cant to that these days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    any granny flat application ive been involved with has required a good, valid, provable reason as to why the structure is required... and generally its because its for someone from the family who requires independence but also a degree of care.

    There would also be a condition that the structure shall be for the enjoyment of the applicants and shall not be sold or rented... and when it ceases to be a granny flat it is to be subsumed back into the main dwelling.

    I have had to include, in some applications, drawings of how the house would work AFTER the structure is no longer a granny flat.

    I suppose that being for someone who needs care and can be beside their family is a very valid reason.

    Me wanting it for profitability to rent would well I don't know how it would be viewed to be honest, I am wanting to do it so I can travel abroad and still have a source of income, again I am adding more salt to the wound in mentioning why I want it maybe.


  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    stevek93 wrote: »
    I suppose that being for someone who needs care and can be beside their family is a very valid reason.

    Me wanting it for profitability to rent would well I don't know how it would be viewed to be honest, I am wanting to do it so I can travel abroad and still have a source of income, again I am adding more salt to the wound in mentioning why I want it maybe.

    your reason is valid, and we'd all like to do that....

    however its not a valid PLANNING reason.

    https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad%2C1979%2Cen.pdf

    above is some bedtime reading.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭mgn


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    local authority development plans change every 5 years...
    so what happened 17 years ago may be a whole lot different from what can happen today.

    17 years ago you could move down from dublin, buy a lovely rural site in a high demand rural area, and build a huge mansion on it.

    you sure as hell cant to that these days.

    You can, all you have to do is buy a site with an old house on it, you might have to keep a wall or two but flatten the rest and build your mansion if you want.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,425 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    I am guessing you have the space for what you are thinking.
    Your best bet is have a chat with a planning consultant, these guys generally do planning appeals so they will immediately have a pretty good idea if your thinking a runner. Also they will know how to make the application and present it properly, the initial appointment will cost a few €€€ but will be well spent. With housing shortage and the fact that all the services are there your idea may well be worth exploring...


  • Subscribers Posts: 43,378 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mgn wrote: »
    You can, all you have to do is buy a site with an old house on it, you might have to keep a wall or two but flatten the rest and build your mansion if you want.

    you seem determined to answer my points with non related stuff.

    you cant purchase a site in a highly desirable rural location and build your mansion unless your a local and can show local need.

    of course, ANYONE can buy a house and decide to knock it down and build again... but this isnt the same as what i said above.

    and anyway regardless of that, local authorities have strict policies as to what they will give permission for in regard to replacement dwellings... strict policy on the structural integrity of the dwelling... and if its deemed derelict, some LAs implement rural need if your looking to replace.

    http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/KildareCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/DraftCountyDevelopmentPlan/Volume1/Volume%201.pdf
    see policy RH 22 in the above document for example

    and again, if your thinking of buying, doing a major demolition and then extending, there are struct policies as to the design... withmany LAs requiring the the new build be proportional to the existing and the existing being retained in its independent form, with the extension being separate and subservient.

    see policy RH 21 in the above document for example, and policy 16.8.3 for design of extensions


    Where extensions are proposed to an existing cottage
    care should be taken so that the extension does not
    detract from the original character of the building.

    As a rule extensions to the front and gable of cottages
    are to be avoided. An extension to the front can mask
    original detailing or it can alter the proportions of the
    front facade which detracts from the original character.
    An extension to the side can upset the symmetry of the
    cottage, or can result in the loss of the original scale of
    the cottage. An extension to the rear that is visible from
    the road or above the original ridge line can also detract
    from the character of the cottage.
    Rear extensions
    should take account of side and rear views from a public
    road, and the extension should not dominate the existing
    cottage
    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Do they have planning?

    No I highly doubt they do.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭stevek93


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    your reason is valid, and we'd all like to do that....

    however its not a valid PLANNING reason.

    https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad%2C1979%2Cen.pdf

    above is some bedtime reading.....

    Thanks I'll have a read.


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