Planning permission to build permanent accommodation in back garden

stevek93

Hi all,

I want to build a permanent concrete structure in my back garden, I have no idea where to start with this. I would like to rent the structure as living accommodation but I want to have everything done legally. What do I need to do here?

Thanks

Gumbo

stevek93 wrote: »

Hi all,

I want to build a permanent concrete structure in my back garden, I have no idea where to start with this. I would like to rent the structure as living accommodation but I want to have everything done legally. What do I need to do here?

Thanks

You need to sit down and understand this.

You won’t get planning.
That’s the truth.

stevek93

Gumbo wrote: »

You need to sit down and understand this.

You won’t get planning.
That’s the truth.

Ok fair enough so, is it the local council objecting to it?

Calahonda52

stevek93 wrote: »

Ok fair enough so, is it the local council objecting to it?

It's not a question of objecting, it is a a question of implementing planning guidelines and planning laws.
They will refuse to grant you planning which is very different from Joe Soap objecting to a planning application.

stevek93

Calahonda52 wrote: »

It's not a question of objecting, it is a a question of implementing planning guidelines and planning laws.
They will refuse to grant you planning which is very different from Joe Soap objecting to a planning application.

Is there somewhere I can view planning guidelines and planning laws?

Gumbo

stevek93 wrote: »

Ok fair enough so, is it the local council objecting to it?

Planning Regulations.
Building Regulations.
Sustainable developments.
Housing design and standards as set out by the Dept. Of Environment.

Have a look at your local Development plan.

What Council Area are you located in?

sydthebeat

stevek93 wrote: »

Hi all,

I want to build a permanent concrete structure in my back garden, I have no idea where to start with this. I would like to rent the structure as living accommodation but I want to have everything done legally. What do I need to do here?

Thanks

unless you have lands big enough to provide the requirements for two independent houses ie car park, private amenity space, refuse storage etc.. and the new houses doesnt impact on the privacy or enjoyment of the existing house, or houses in the immediate vicinity...

then your barking up the wrong tree.

in the vast, vast majority of cases, urban houses are on sites large enough for only one dwelling

stevek93

Gumbo wrote: »

Planning Regulations.
Building Regulations.
Sustainable developments.
Housing design and standards as set out by the Dept. Of Environment.

Have a look at your local Development plan.

What Council Area are you located in?

Thanks, I am north Dublin City Council.

Thargor

Go with a log cabin instead OP.

mgn

The reason the cant is because if the give it one, the have to give it to everyone on the street if the apply, so you can see what problems that would cause.

sydthebeat

Thargor wrote: »

Go with a log cabin instead OP.

makes no difference how its constructed

its the use of the property which will be the issue

stevek93

sydthebeat wrote: »

unless you have lands big enough to provide the requirements for two independent houses ie car park, private amenity space, refuse storage etc.. and the new houses doesnt impact on the privacy or enjoyment of the existing house, or houses in the immediate vicinity...

then your barking up the wrong tree.

in the vast, vast majority of cases, urban houses are on sites large enough for on one dwelling

I have space for two cars maybe even three to exit the driveway without hinderance. There is access to the back garden via the side entrance and it is possible to build without looking into neighbouring windows etc. Probably a lot more to think about really.

stevek93

mgn wrote: »

The reason the cant is because if the give it one, the have to give it to everyone on the street if the apply, so you can see what problems that would cause.

Yes I suppose you are right, but then people then go do it with a log cabin instead I look out my back window and see 3 different gardens with log cabins. One garden has a log cabin bigger than the house itself.

mgn

sydthebeat wrote: »

unless you have lands big enough to provide the requirements for two independent houses ie car park, private amenity space, refuse storage etc.. and the new houses doesnt impact on the privacy or enjoyment of the existing house, or houses in the immediate vicinity...

then your barking up the wrong tree.

in the vast, vast majority of cases, urban houses are on sites large enough for only one dwelling

I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

Gumbo

Thargor wrote: »

Go with a log cabin instead OP.

OP is not looking for a shed though.

Gumbo

stevek93 wrote: »

Yes I suppose you are right, but then people then go do it with a log cabin instead I look out my back window and see 3 different gardens with log cabins. One garden has a log cabin bigger than the house itself.

Do they have planning?

Gumbo

mgn wrote: »

I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

That is totally different to what the OP is talking about.
You are talking about infill development. Which is allowed once you can meet the criteria in the local development plan.

The OP is talking about building a structure out their back garden and trying to rent it out and classify it as a separate dwelling.

mgn

Gumbo wrote: »

That is totally different to what the OP is talking about.
You are talking about infill development. Which is allowed once you can meet the criteria in the local development plan.

The OP is talking about building a structure out their back garden and trying to rent it out and classify it as a separate dwelling.

What about the granny flat option.

sydthebeat

mgn wrote: »

I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

of course... which tallies exactly with my post

ive designed many houses for corner sites, or end of terrace where there was space to squeeze in another

IF the site is large enough and suitable enough for a second house, it may get planning.

however these threads tend to come on who, like the OP, wants to build something "down the bottom of the garden"and in the vast vast majority of cases this is not a runner.

Homer

mgn wrote: »

What about the granny flat option.

Must be connected to the main dwelling in all but exceptional circumstances.

sydthebeat

mgn wrote: »

What about the granny flat option.

any granny flat application ive been involved with has required a good, valid, provable reason as to why the structure is required... and generally its because its for someone from the family who requires independence but also a degree of care.

There would also be a condition that the structure shall be for the enjoyment of the applicants and shall not be sold or rented... and when it ceases to be a granny flat it is to be subsumed back into the main dwelling.

I have had to include, in some applications, drawings of how the house would work AFTER the structure is no longer a granny flat.

mgn

sydthebeat wrote: »

any granny flat application ive been involved with has required a good, valid, provable reason as to why the structure is required... and generally its because its for someone from the family who requires independence but also a degree of care.

There would also be a condition that the structure shall be for the enjoyment of the applicants and shall not be sold or rented... and when it ceases to be a granny flat it is to be subsumed back into the main dwelling.

I have had to include, in some applications, drawings of how the house would work AFTER the structure is no longer a granny flat.

I dident know when it ceased being a granny flat that it had to be subsumed back into the main building, is that enforced, the reason i'm asking is that i used to rent one in Dublin 16/17 years ago.

stevek93

mgn wrote: »

I have seen on a few occasions where planning permission was granted for a new house on large corner site or the likes of the last house in a cul-de sac with room at the end.

I was renting a few years back, and like you said the it was the last house on the end in the cul-de sac had a little bungalow built in the back garden then using the driveway for access to the front of the property.

sydthebeat

mgn wrote: »

I dident know when it ceased being a granny flat that it had to be subsumed back into the main building, is that enforced, the reason i'm asking is that i used to rent one in Dublin 16/17 years ago.

local authority development plans change every 5 years...
so what happened 17 years ago may be a whole lot different from what can happen today.

17 years ago you could move down from dublin, buy a lovely rural site in a high demand rural area, and build a huge mansion on it.

you sure as hell cant to that these days.

stevek93

sydthebeat wrote: »

any granny flat application ive been involved with has required a good, valid, provable reason as to why the structure is required... and generally its because its for someone from the family who requires independence but also a degree of care.

There would also be a condition that the structure shall be for the enjoyment of the applicants and shall not be sold or rented... and when it ceases to be a granny flat it is to be subsumed back into the main dwelling.

I have had to include, in some applications, drawings of how the house would work AFTER the structure is no longer a granny flat.

I suppose that being for someone who needs care and can be beside their family is a very valid reason.

Me wanting it for profitability to rent would well I don't know how it would be viewed to be honest, I am wanting to do it so I can travel abroad and still have a source of income, again I am adding more salt to the wound in mentioning why I want it maybe.

sydthebeat

stevek93 wrote: »

I suppose that being for someone who needs care and can be beside their family is a very valid reason.

Me wanting it for profitability to rent would well I don't know how it would be viewed to be honest, I am wanting to do it so I can travel abroad and still have a source of income, again I am adding more salt to the wound in mentioning why I want it maybe.

your reason is valid, and we'd all like to do that....

however its not a valid PLANNING reason.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad%2C1979%2Cen.pdf

above is some bedtime reading.....

mgn

sydthebeat wrote: »

local authority development plans change every 5 years...
so what happened 17 years ago may be a whole lot different from what can happen today.

17 years ago you could move down from dublin, buy a lovely rural site in a high demand rural area, and build a huge mansion on it.

you sure as hell cant to that these days.

You can, all you have to do is buy a site with an old house on it, you might have to keep a wall or two but flatten the rest and build your mansion if you want.

maestroamado

I am guessing you have the space for what you are thinking.
Your best bet is have a chat with a planning consultant, these guys generally do planning appeals so they will immediately have a pretty good idea if your thinking a runner. Also they will know how to make the application and present it properly, the initial appointment will cost a few €€€ but will be well spent. With housing shortage and the fact that all the services are there your idea may well be worth exploring...

sydthebeat

mgn wrote: »

You can, all you have to do is buy a site with an old house on it, you might have to keep a wall or two but flatten the rest and build your mansion if you want.

you seem determined to answer my points with non related stuff.

you cant purchase a site in a highly desirable rural location and build your mansion unless your a local and can show local need.

of course, ANYONE can buy a house and decide to knock it down and build again... but this isnt the same as what i said above.

and anyway regardless of that, local authorities have strict policies as to what they will give permission for in regard to replacement dwellings... strict policy on the structural integrity of the dwelling... and if its deemed derelict, some LAs implement rural need if your looking to replace.

http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/KildareCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/DraftCountyDevelopmentPlan/Volume1/Volume%201.pdf
see policy RH 22 in the above document for example

and again, if your thinking of buying, doing a major demolition and then extending, there are struct policies as to the design... withmany LAs requiring the the new build be proportional to the existing and the existing being retained in its independent form, with the extension being separate and subservient.

see policy RH 21 in the above document for example, and policy 16.8.3 for design of extensions

Where extensions are proposed to an existing cottage
care should be taken so that the extension does not
detract from the original character of the building.
As a rule extensions to the front and gable of cottages
are to be avoided. An extension to the front can mask
original detailing or it can alter the proportions of the
front facade which detracts from the original character.
An extension to the side can upset the symmetry of the
cottage, or can result in the loss of the original scale of
the cottage. An extension to the rear that is visible from
the road or above the original ridge line can also detract
from the character of the cottage. Rear extensions
should take account of side and rear views from a public
road, and the extension should not dominate the existing
cottage.

stevek93

Gumbo wrote: »

Do they have planning?

No I highly doubt they do.

stevek93

sydthebeat wrote: »

your reason is valid, and we'd all like to do that....

however its not a valid PLANNING reason.

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad%2C1979%2Cen.pdf

above is some bedtime reading.....

Thanks I'll have a read.

stevek93

maestroamado wrote: »

I am guessing you have the space for what you are thinking.
Your best bet is have a chat with a planning consultant, these guys generally do planning appeals so they will immediately have a pretty good idea if your thinking a runner. Also they will know how to make the application and present it properly, the initial appointment will cost a few €€€ but will be well spent. With housing shortage and the fact that all the services are there your idea may well be worth exploring...

Yes plenty of space for me to still enjoy the garden too.

To answer your housing shortage I am offering the build to a past house mate now friend that is stuck in shared accommodation for many years and will be many more years to come, I will be accepting HAP or rent allowance. I once was in the same situation and never thought I could afford my own home I know the feeling of not being able to afford your own space so I would to make that possible for someone if planning permission is ever granted.

mgn

sydthebeat wrote: »

you seem determined to answer my points with non related stuff.

you cant purchase a site in a highly desirable rural location and build your mansion unless your a local and can show local need.

of course, ANYONE can buy a house and decide to knock it down and build again... but this isnt the same as what i said above.

and anyway regardless of that, local authorities have strict policies as to what they will give permission for in regard to replacement dwellings... strict policy on the structural integrity of the dwelling... and if its deemed derelict, some LAs implement rural need if your looking to replace.

http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/KildareCountyDevelopmentPlan2017-2023/DraftCountyDevelopmentPlan/Volume1/Volume%201.pdf
see policy RH 22 in the above document for example

and again, if your thinking of buying, doing a major demolition and then extending, there are struct policies as to the design... withmany LAs requiring the the new build be proportional to the existing and the existing being retained in its independent form, with the extension being separate and subservient.

see policy RH 21 in the above document for example, and policy 16.8.3 for design of extensions

And simple way around all that is to buy a 2 story building that's in of the road. simple.

TheW1zard

I know a few houses that have a mews. All nice posh houses obviously. These were probably all built before planning got strict im guessing?

sydthebeat

mgn wrote: »

And simple way around all that is to buy a 2 story building that's in of the road. simple.

If only this thread was about buying a house.....

stevek93

TheW1zard wrote: »

I know a few houses that have a mews. All nice posh houses obviously. These were probably all built before planning got strict im guessing?

I dont know why its difficult here to get permission, if you aren't causing a hindrance then what is the issue? We have a housing shortage the government should actively encourage land owners to use their land if they so wish to provide accommodation.

As I said in my previous post I struggled renting for years until I bought a home, I have enough space in my back garden to accommodate one person, I know it isnt a block of apartments I'm building but its something. It might make so the local hospital has a new nurse or doctor or whatever I am in walking distance of the hospital.

sydthebeat

stevek93 wrote: »

I dont know why its difficult here to get permission, if you aren't causing a hindrance then what is the issue? We have a housing shortage the government should actively encourage land owners to use their land if they so wish to provide accommodation.

As I said in my previous post I struggled renting for years until I bought a home, I have enough space in my back garden to accommodate one person, I know it isnt a block of apartments I'm building but its something. It might make so the local hospital has a new nurse or doctor or whatever I am in walking distance of the hospital.

If you have the required space, then absolutely you should crack on and get an application prepared.

However if you don't have the required space don't be surprised if that application is refused.

The first thing you should do is go talk to the planners in a preplanning meeting

stevek93

sydthebeat wrote: »

If you have the required space, then absolutely you should crack on and get an application prepared.

However if you don't have the required space don't be surprised if that application is refused.

The first thing you should do is go talk to the planners in a preplanning meeting

Thanks, I know a lot more now than I did before creating this thread.

stevek93

stevek93 wrote: »

I dont know why its difficult here to get permission, if you aren't causing a hindrance then what is the issue? We have a housing shortage the government should actively encourage land owners to use their land if they so wish to provide accommodation.

As I said in my previous post I struggled renting for years until I bought a home, I have enough space in my back garden to accommodate one person, I know it isnt a block of apartments I'm building but its something. It might make so the local hospital has a new nurse or doctor or whatever I am in walking distance of the hospital.

Mate... Stop with the false, altruistic chat.

Be realistic why you're doing this.

stevek93 wrote: »

Me wanting it for profitability to rent would well I don't know how it would be viewed to be honest, I am wanting to do it so I can travel abroad and still have a source of income

It's frustrating, but being disingenuous isn't the way forward.

stevek93

Deleted User wrote: »

Mate... Stop with the false, altruistic chat.

Be realistic why you're doing this.





It's frustrating, but being disingenuous isn't the way forward.

Ah now stop it for goodness sake, of course I want to benefit of the income wouldn't you? But as I said I have been boucning around rental accommodation for years I have totally been there and done it!! I am out of the rental market thank god but if I can do my bit of helping out why not? Not everyone is out for their own good.

Gumbo

The planners don’t care if the new build will be for your son, daughter or to rent to 12 families.

That’s an emotional attachment. The planning application is based on planning principles and guides as set out in our development plans.

OP, if you want to PM me your address I can take a preliminary look at it and give honest opinion.

BryanF

stevek93 wrote: »

Ah now stop it for goodness sake, of course I want to benefit of the income wouldn't you? But as I said I have been boucning around rental accommodation for years I have totally been there and done it!! I am out of the rental market thank god but if I can do my bit of helping out why not? Not everyone is out for their own good.

You are posting in the construction and planning forum. We obey the law. When you apply for planning, the local authority will decide if you can build. No more chat about about the state of the state. Thanks

stevek93

BryanF wrote: »

You are posting in the construction and planning forum. We obey the law. When you apply for planning, the local authority will decide if you can build. No more chat about about the state of the state. Thanks

Well maybe I went a bit of topic I do apologise

Wombatman

Gumbo wrote: »

The planners don’t care if the new build will be for your son, daughter or to rent to 12 families.

It can come into play where there are 'locals only' planning restrictions.

stevek93

Wombatman wrote: »

It can come into play where there are 'locals only' planning restrictions.

Is that such a thing?

sydthebeat

Wombatman wrote: »

It can come into play where there are 'locals only' planning restrictions.

these dont exist in urban situations, which is what we are referring to here

c.p.w.g.w

Wombatman wrote: »

It can come into play where there are 'locals only' planning restrictions.

How is that even legal, genuinely wondering

Gumbo

Wombatman wrote: »

It can come into play where there are 'locals only' planning restrictions.

stevek93 wrote: »

Is that such a thing?

We shall ignore that as the OP is talking about an urban setting. No point going on about rules for things that don’t exist in Dublin.

sydthebeat

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

How is that even legal, genuinely wondering

rural housing is a very finite resource.

so restricting it to those with the highest need is deemed to be the policy.

The alternative is to have NO new rural housing

Gumbo

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

How is that even legal, genuinely wondering

You can read up on local needs criteria in certain counties in Ireland.

Wombatman

stevek93 wrote: »

Is that such a thing?

Example here:

A son or daughter of an established householder (who has lived in the area for three years or more) wishing to build a permanent home for their own use to live immediately adjacent to their elderly parents to provide care.

http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/forms/planning/English/PDF/Rural%20Housing%20Guidance%20Notes.pdf