Western IQ's plummeting - Why?

splashuum · 29-06-2020 4:26pm #1

There's been many articles published recently suggesting that IQ's in the west are dropping at an alarming rate. According to a study published by the University of Amsterdam, westerners have lost 14 IQ points on average since the Victorian
age.

NBC highlighted some of the potential reasons as mentioned below:

"it was suggested that average intelligence is being pulled down because lower-IQ families are having more children. Alternatively, widening immigration might be bringing less-intelligent newcomers to societies"

Previous research has also found that women of higher intelligence are having fewer children, meaning women of lower intelligence are driving population growth.

How can we counter the "Dumbening"

?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576

https://www.dailysabah.com/science/2018/06/14/dramatic-drop-in-peoples-iq-levels-since-1975-study-reveals

For Forks Sake · 29-06-2020 4:29pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E

Car99 · 29-06-2020 4:31pm

Because now we make our problems someone else's or get a machine to do the solving for us.

cgcsb · 29-06-2020 4:33pm

How do we know what average IQs were in victorian times?

Still waters · 29-06-2020 4:35pm

Eugenics ftw

RWCNT · 29-06-2020 4:35pm

The reason is obviously whatever axes I have to grind with modern society.

KiKi III · 29-06-2020 4:37pm

splashuum wrote: »

There's been many articles published recently suggesting that IQ's in the west are dropping at an alarming rate. According to a study published by the University of Amsterdam, westerners have lost 14 IQ points on average since the Victorian
age.

NBC highlighted some of the potential reasons as mentioned below:

"it was suggested that average intelligence is being pulled down because lower-IQ families are having more children. Alternatively, widening immigration might be bringing less-intelligent newcomers to societies"

Previous research has also found that women of higher intelligence are having fewer children, meaning women of lower intelligence are driving population growth.

How can we counter the "Dumbening" ?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576

https://www.dailysabah.com/science/2018/06/14/dramatic-drop-in-peoples-iq-levels-since-1975-study-reveals

Weird that you chose to quote that paragraph on immigration but not this one which immediately follows it:

“However, a 2018 study of Norway has punctured these theories by showing that IQs are dropping not just across societies but within families. In other words, the issue is not that educated Norwegians are increasingly outnumbered by lower-IQ immigrants or the children of less-educated citizens. Even children born to high-IQ parents are slipping down the IQ ladder.”

begbysback · 29-06-2020 4:39pm

Not much need for any data here to backup your statement, Trump & Boris Johnson are elected to run 2 of the most powerful nations in the world.

I’ll say it again, take the “Do Not Drink” warning off the bottles of bleach, IQ will then rise once again.

kowloon · 29-06-2020 4:42pm

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

biko · 29-06-2020 4:43pm

kowloon wrote: »

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

Not mine obviously, but maybe yours.

I jest!

Still waters · 29-06-2020 4:43pm

begbysback wrote: »

Not much need for any data here to backup your statement, Trump & Boris Johnson are elected to run 2 of the most powerful nations in the world.

I’ll say it again, take the “Do Not Drink” warning off the bottles of bleach, IQ will then rise once again.

There's probably truth in what you say, society has baby proofed itself against morons where as years ago morons killed themselves off doing stupid stuff

Still waters · 29-06-2020 4:44pm

kowloon wrote: »

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

While getting free houses and welfare, quite an achievement

LiquidZeb · 29-06-2020 4:45pm

kowloon wrote: »

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

They both steal everyone's jobs and don't work and claim the dole. It's Current Affairs Schrodinger's cat.

Odhinn · 29-06-2020 4:46pm

kowloon wrote: »

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

Yep, its Quantum Immigrantobia.

Mr Meanor · 29-06-2020 4:47pm

KiKi III wrote: »

Even children born to high-IQ parents are slipping down the IQ ladder.”

I blame social media!
I used to be genius level, now after years on forums and social media an orangutang could score higher IQ points than me and probably have better posts.

begbysback · 29-06-2020 4:49pm

Still waters wrote: »

There's probably truth in what you say, society has baby proofed itself against morons where as years ago morons killed themselves off doing stupid stuff

And ask yourself, who breeds more, the dumb or the intelligent?

We’re fcuked

at9qu5vp0wcix7 · 29-06-2020 4:51pm

I would think it's pretty simple: the high IQ are overworked and overtaxed, meaning that they are no longer having as many children. Provision of welfare in Western countries means that this is no longer an issue for lower IQ people.
A generalisation of course, but I believe it goes a long way towards explaining it.

Harry Palmr · 29-06-2020 4:52pm

This thread is evidentof riding iqs

skooterblue2 · 29-06-2020 4:54pm

kowloon wrote: »

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

Yup diversity quotas and tax advantages press native small business owners into the ground where they are already over taxed.

begbysback · 29-06-2020 4:54pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This thread is evidentof riding iqs

Recording this before it’s edited

29-06-2020 4:56pm

All work and no playboy.

No energy left for fun.

Odhinn · 29-06-2020 4:57pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Yup diversity quotas and tax advantages press native small business owners into the ground where they are already over taxed.

Do please give us a few examples of "diversity quotas" and "tax advantages", if you would.

dzsfah2xoynme9 · 29-06-2020 4:59pm

All the clever people realise that the world is messed up, everything is absolutely pointless and that there's no point continuing on in this charade we call life so they end it. Nothing we do matters and they just enter eternal bliss...

jam_mac_jam · 29-06-2020 5:02pm

That's very interesting. I could only guess the reasons in children, are they reading less that would effect performance in IQ tests.

29-06-2020 5:03pm

Easy enough... social media and the convenience of the Internet.

Few people bother to work out problems themselves anymore. Instead, they jump on to google or ask a friend online.

Lazy brains.

skooterblue2 · 29-06-2020 5:04pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Do please give us a few examples of "diversity quotas" and "tax advantages", if you would.

https://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/achieving_equality_in_intercultural_workplaces.pdf

Myself and Mrs Skooter are heading out. get back to it later

29-06-2020 5:07pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

https://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/achieving_equality_in_intercultural_workplaces.pdf

Myself and Mrs Skooter are heading out. get back to it later

No other boardsies need risk asking for an update from ye so

namloc1980 · 29-06-2020 5:09pm

Laziness and having someone else to solve problems for you. The quality of young people entering the workforce is shockingly low. Degrees coming out their eyeballs but couldn't figure their way out of a wet paper bag.

Outkast_IRE · 29-06-2020 5:12pm

Were there IQ tests in victorian times ?

It would be remiss no to mention that for most of history lads were just rounded up off the street to conscription , prisoners were conscripted etc. so some enforced natural selection was taking place . Which the richer more highly educated people were at no risk, they would be officers etc.

FVP3 · 29-06-2020 5:12pm

The evidence in the link, and other links I have looked at, is that it is in fact a reduction in educational standards. And probably a reduction in reading.

Odhinn · 29-06-2020 5:13pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

https://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/achieving_equality_in_intercultural_workplaces.pdf

Myself and Mrs Skooter are heading out. get back to it later

Theres no "quotas" set in that, though it does refer to discrimination with Women, Travellers and the rest.

29-06-2020 5:13pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Laziness and having someone else to solve problems for you..... . Degrees coming out their eyeballs but couldn't figure their way out of a wet paper bag.

^^^^^^This. They milk the bejayzuz out of relating their degree.

29-06-2020 5:18pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Were there IQ tests in victorian times ?

Slightly Later there were the "Binet's Test"

I did not do one.

Dropped around 1970 due to being too selective.

suicide_circus · 29-06-2020 5:21pm

reduction in educational standards

people in third level being taught what to think rather than how to think

technology making mental calculation and memory obsolete

completedit · 29-06-2020 5:25pm

Maybe more people having access to education means that we have a more accurate reflection of average IQ's? Maybe Victorian era IQ test results were skewed.

But clearly a huge modern phenomenon is that increasingly our lives are very passive from a young age. IQ is genetic though isn't it. Like actual habits won't make someone smarter. So a kid with a low IQ could read all the books he or she wants and it would have as negligible impact on their IQ

FVP3 · 29-06-2020 5:41pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Were there IQ tests in victorian times ?

It would be remiss no to mention that for most of history lads were just rounded up off the street to conscription , prisoners were conscripted etc. so some enforced natural selection was taking place . Which the richer more highly educated people were at no risk, they would be officers etc.

Its all based on reaction tests which are supposed to be related to IQ ( or rather both are related to G, the intelligence we are trying to measure).

OscarMIlde · 29-06-2020 5:42pm

splashuum wrote: »

There's been many articles published recently suggesting that IQ's in the west are dropping at an alarming rate. According to a study published by the University of Amsterdam, westerners have lost 14 IQ points on average since the Victorian
age.

NBC highlighted some of the potential reasons as mentioned below:

"it was suggested that average intelligence is being pulled down because lower-IQ families are having more children. Alternatively, widening immigration might be bringing less-intelligent newcomers to societies"

Previous research has also found that women of higher intelligence are having fewer children, meaning women of lower intelligence are driving population growth.

How can we counter the "Dumbening" ?

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/iq-rates-are-dropping-many-developed-countries-doesn-t-bode-ncna1008576

https://www.dailysabah.com/science/2018/06/14/dramatic-drop-in-peoples-iq-levels-since-1975-study-reveals

How on earth would anyone be able to measure what the average IQ level of people was in Victorian times?

FVP3 · 29-06-2020 5:44pm

completedit wrote: »

Maybe more people having access to education means that we have a more accurate reflection of average IQ's? Maybe Victorian era IQ test results were skewed.

But clearly a huge modern phenomenon is that increasingly our lives are very passive from a young age. IQ is genetic though isn't it. Like actual habits won't make someone smarter. So a kid with a low IQ could read all the books he or she wants and it would have as negligible impact on their IQ

Measured IQ rose from the first IQ test until about 1995, at a fairly strong rate, and then declined at an equally strong rate ( in Norway and other countries).

So it has to be environmental as well as genetic, because that is too fast.

Like height differences, thats genetic and environmental. You need the genes to be tall but you also need to eat right, which is why societies got taller over the 20C. Height is also in decline.

Mr. Karate · 29-06-2020 5:46pm

Is it really shocking? Look at the state of school systems. They're indoctrination Centres. Kids are being taught that there's 100 something Genders [Maybe more by now] and even greetings as "Hi, How are you?" is offensive because it could be a "microaggression".

quokula · 29-06-2020 6:13pm

So this article is based on one study that was limited to Norway, which showed a rise through the 20th century which peaked among people born in the late 70s (i.e. people around 40 today) before starting to tail off since then. Given that the data came from Norway and only Norway it could very easily be due to specific issues there around the school curriculum or whatever. It's a major extrapolation to assume it's the same in the rest of the world.

The second source, a University of Amsterdam study from about a decade ago, compared reaction times in Victorian times (based on pre-existing data obviously) with those today, and assumes reaction times correlate directly with Intelligence, due to the fact that it's a really simplistic measure of how quickly your brain can process data. It is a bit of a stretch to conclude that this definitively proves intelligence though. The methodology of the reaction time test through the ages is unlikely to have been the same either, or the selection of candidates and how representative they were of the general population at the time.

So mainly I'd say this is just clickbait, which is clearly working judging by some of the replies keen to blame it on immigrants, diversity quotas, or kids who aren't transphobic :rolleyes:

Eric Cartman · 29-06-2020 6:25pm

kowloon wrote: »

The immigrants are simultaneously stupid and stealing all the jobs?

id actually love to see the last time somebody genuinely posted on this site that the immigrants were taking all the jobs. Its an argument you often hear lampooned but in 13 years I can't recall ever actually seeing somebody seriously suggest that they were in fact 'taking all our jobs'

FVP3 · 29-06-2020 6:30pm

quokula wrote: »

So this article is based on one study that was limited to Norway, which showed a rise through the 20th century which peaked among people born in the late 70s (i.e. people around 40 today) before starting to tail off since then. Given that the data came from Norway and only Norway it could very easily be due to specific issues there around the school curriculum or whatever. It's a major extrapolation to assume it's the same in the rest of the world.

The second source, a University of Amsterdam study from about a decade ago, compared reaction times in Victorian times (based on pre-existing data obviously) with those today, and assumes reaction times correlate directly with Intelligence, due to the fact that it's a really simplistic measure of how quickly your brain can process data. It is a bit of a stretch to conclude that this definitively proves intelligence though. The methodology of the reaction time test through the ages is unlikely to have been the same either, or the selection of candidates and how representative they were of the general population at the time.

It's more than one country though. I think 5, or 6 in the records I saw. I agree with you about the Victorian measurements.

So mainly I'd say this is just clickbait, which is clearly working judging by some of the replies keen to blame it on immigrants, diversity quotas, or kids who aren't transphobic :rolleyes:

I think you have made up most of those arguments your self. Most people who have opined, suggest environmental factors.

EDIT:

Oops. My bad. Missed page 2.

For me its largely environmental factors. Similar issues with stagnation in height.

FVP3 · 29-06-2020 6:36pm

you can all test your reaction time here. To the left of the curve is better, the opposite of IQ.

https://humanbenchmark.com/dashboard/reactiontime

Eric Cartman · 29-06-2020 6:39pm

id say the simple fact is the wrong people are having kids.

upper and middle class people are delaying, not having or having 2 children while working class and lifelong welfare dependants often have larger families. That coupled with usually uneducated / lowly educated migrants having more children doesn't bode well for the future.

converting child benefit completely to a tax credit and making long lasting contraception like the injection/bar freely available to lifelong unemployed / working class people would be the start of a solution.

we have decades of policies which are wiping out the children with the best chance to succeed.

29-06-2020 7:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Easy enough... social media and the convenience of the Internet.

Few people bother to work out problems themselves anymore. Instead, they jump on to google or ask a friend online.

Lazy brains.

In a way I'd agree that we've changed the way people process information, but I'd disagree that it's laziness.

We don't NEED rote learned information like we used to. It's far more valuable to be tech-savvy, to adapt to new processes/systems well, and to know where to go for information.

IQ tests probably aren't appropriately designed to measure the intelligence required in our workforce anymore. People (rightly) utilise the internet much more and where we do store information in our heads, it's much more likely to be niche rather than general knowledge.

Still waters · 29-06-2020 7:28pm

Theres a difference between laziness and being thick

29-06-2020 7:41pm

Young Johnny and Mary see and hear where they can buy that cool bling and those unmissable events:

Amazon and Ticket Master.

No need to shop other places.

In a few years, Johnny is thinking of setting up his own eBay account to sell his own "stuff" on.

No need for Johnny and Mary to learn any more about marketing or business, in their own mindset.

29-06-2020 7:46pm

true-or-false wrote: »

In a way I'd agree that we've changed the way people process information, but I'd disagree that it's laziness.

We don't NEED rote learned information like we used to. It's far more valuable to be tech-savvy, to adapt to new processes/systems well, and to know where to go for information.

IQ tests probably aren't appropriately designed to measure the intelligence required in our workforce anymore. People (rightly) utilise the internet much more and where we do store information in our heads, it's much more likely to be niche rather than general knowledge.

It's not about rote learning though. I see this every day in lectures. Critical thinking, or at least defining their own centers of logic has dropped considerably. Instead, students rely far too much on articles taken from the internet, so much that they're unable to form their own arguments. Instead, they're arguing the authors points but don't have the authors insights (research, statistics, etc) into the topic.

The problem is that without people taking apart questions and doing their own research, there is a very shallow awareness of any situation. That extends to so many aspects of life because they rely on articles to explain everything to them.

As for storing information, I'd disagree again, simply because the Internet is always in reach (through their phones) there's less need for them to remember information. Instead, they bookmark pages, and refer back to the pages to support their opinions. Sure, it's going into their short term memory, but they're not really investing any effort in understanding the information, and so the info, doesn't stick in their long term memory.

The last part is about instant gratification. The internet provides everything reasonably quickly, so there's very little slogging through books or material to find answers. The very convenience of it all, makes them lazy in regards to appreciation of information.

I'm guessing I need to put in a disclaimer by saying that I'm not talking about everyone...

Black Swan · 29-06-2020 7:47pm

There are so many problems that pertain to the validity and reliability of IQ testing that to claim that "Western IQ's plummeting" was problematic at best, or spurious at worst. For years there has been an ongoing debate as to what IQ tests measure (i.e., questions the validity of measurement), as well as the reliability over time of such testing.

For example, there are many IQ tests today. If they were all valid and reliable, and they were all called IQ tests, would it be safe to assume that they are measuring the same thing, and that the scores between one frequently used IQ test would be almost identical to the IQ scores obtained on another frequently used IQ test for the same persons? Taking only seconds to google between sips of coffee I found a 2009 study that reported:

Stanford-Binet and Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) IQs were compared for a group of 74 adults with intellectual disability (ID). In every case, WAIS Full Scale IQ was higher than the Stanford-Binet Composite IQ, with a mean difference of 16.7 points.

Now leaping to one of the OP's quoted articles:

splashuum wrote: »

According to a study published by the University of Amsterdam, westerners have lost 14 IQ points on average since the Victorian age.

Gosh, to find a double-digit difference in IQ we did not have to wait from 20 June 1837 to present to find a "14 IQ points" difference, we could find a greater "16.7 points" difference in one day between two very highly used IQ tests. And before you pounce on me for making several logical errors in this comparison (which there are), go back and ask if the IQ tests were both valid and reliable in terms of what they measure. And to add to this, did the "Victorian Age" test or tests measure the same thing (validity in measurement) as today? I could go on and on, and if I put time into this answer rather than just spouting off superficially, I could find several peer-reviewed articles with citations that would greatly challenge the 2 links given in the OP.

Fred Cryton · 29-06-2020 8:07pm

In Charles Darwins time 10 kids born into a middle class family would have been common. The poor would be lucky to have 2 kids surviving to adulthood.

Now it's reversed of course - as we know the middle class are lucky to have 1 child...and that 1 child ,as a higher rate taxpayer - subsidizes the 10 kids on welfare in poor families.

it is interesting to project this in to the future...if 2 middle class people continue to have only 1.2 kids.....within a 100 years all welfare may be unaffordable.

Eric Cartman · 29-06-2020 8:09pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

In Charles Darwins time 10 kids born into a middle class family would have been common. The poor would be lucky to have 2 kids surviving to adulthood.

Now it's reversed of course - as we know the middle class are lucky to have 1 child...and that 1 child ,as a higher rate taxpayer - subsidizes the 10 kids on welfare in poor families.

it is interesting to project this in to the future...if 2 middle class people continue to have only 1.2 kids.....within a 100 years all welfare may be unaffordable.

welfare is unaffordable now.

Western IQ's plummeting - Why?

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