Is your club benefiting from the COVID lockdown?

the_syco · 28-06-2020 4:37pm #1

Was speaking to one of the lads, and his club got over 140 new members since the lockdown allowed people to golf. Predominantly people in the 20-40 range that may have played some pitch 'n putt in the past, but would have be playing other sports as their main before COVID.

Are people finding that this is the same with their clubs?

Mantis Toboggan · 28-06-2020 4:51pm

70 new members at our club. Lots of revenue lost though so not sure they've benefitted that much.

callaway92 · 28-06-2020 8:28pm

We probably picked up a few distant members or members on something that isn’t the main sub fee.

Either way it’s not near compensation for loss of revenue over the last few months (April, May, June bank hol for competitions, societies etc)

28-06-2020 9:13pm

Large number of previous/new members 18-30 who are involved in local GAA clubs have joined since club reopened.

willabur · 28-06-2020 9:21pm

Donabate GC has 200 new members - great to see it but its tough going getting a tee time with that amount of interest. Hard to see people maintaining interest if they cannot get a tee time, Will be interesting to see if the numbers sustain themselves

GreeBo · 28-06-2020 9:54pm

200 new members is crazy!

Are they also paying less than everyone else?

moycullen14 · 29-06-2020 9:28am

100 new members
Fee for casual golf
Wage bill down by 80%+

More than makes up for any loss of competition fees/green fees/societies, I would think.

youcancallmeal · 29-06-2020 9:31am

We lost about 80 and gained about 80

thewobbler · 29-06-2020 9:46am

GreeBo wrote: »

200 new members is crazy!

Are they also paying less than everyone else?

200 new members sounds crazy, for in itself that is basically 10 hours of full timesheets for a club competition.

And I don’t know much about Donabate GC. Only to say that almost any time last year I went looking for a tee time within an hour’s drive, they had them available, and usually at €20 or less. Bargain basement golf. Having 27 holes would help create this situation, but there was more likely a hole in their membership base.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 9:55am

thewobbler wrote: »

200 new members sounds crazy, for in itself that is basically 10 hours of full timesheets for a club competition.

And I don’t know much about Donabate GC. Only to say that almost any time last year I went looking for a tee time within an hour’s drive, they had them available, and usually at €20 or less. Bargain basement golf. Having 27 holes would help create this situation, but there was more likely a hole in their membership base.

Maybe it works fine while they are playing 3 x 9 due to covid, but unless they were in hige financial trouble before and as you say had a huge gap, I think this wont end well.

200 playing members is huge, maybe its across all membership categories and hence not all on full playing rights...

blue note · 29-06-2020 10:37am

I was talking to a guy in the pro shop in corballis. He said we've close to 200 new members. We'll see how much golf they actually play in the long term though before I give out about timesheet problems. If they could stop people booking slots and not using them the new members won't be a problem.

Was talking to a member in tramore at the weekend. They had close to 100 new members j believe. Mainly younger people. These are badly needed there, so if they can hang onto them the pandemic will be to the clubs advantage in the long term.

Rikand · 29-06-2020 10:46am

We're about 100 members up. Most are in the student category but still it's better than nothing and it helped. Losing out on those 3 weeks of competition revenue hurt a lot though.

100-200 members is nothing if you're from a low population area without a full capacity membership. Those exclusive dublin clubs like Greebos wouldnt understand that sort of plight

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 11:41am

Rikand wrote: »

We're about 100 members up. Most are in the student category but still it's better than nothing and it helped. Losing out on those 3 weeks of competition revenue hurt a lot though.

100-200 members is nothing if you're from a low population area without a full capacity membership. Those exclusive dublin clubs like Greebos wouldnt understand that sort of plight

I dont think its anything to do with exclusivity or otherwise, its about how full your timesheet was/is.

We picked up a lot of intermediate members and the timesheets are pretty full of them these days. I have heard more than one comment about it, but I think thats largely down to their playing rights Vs subscription.

Wichita Lineman · 29-06-2020 12:27pm

We definitely have an influx of new members which we needed badly anyway but we also lost a good few for various reasons. Timesheet is very busy but not at problem levels yet. Overall our revenue will be down as we're a small club with cheap annual membership and competition fees are a vital component of our finances. Obviously not something understood by the GUI or Sport Ireland with their U-turn on competitive golf recently.

ShivasIrons · 29-06-2020 12:54pm

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

We definitely have an influx of new members which we needed badly anyway but we also lost a good few for various reasons. Timesheet is very busy but not at problem levels yet. Overall our revenue will be down as we're a small club with cheap annual membership and competition fees are a vital component of our finances. Obviously not something understood by the GUI or Sport Ireland with their U-turn on competitive golf recently.

Can you explain how competition fees are a vital component of your clubs finances? How much does the club take in in fees? How much does it give out in prizes?

What is the subscription?

callaway92 · 29-06-2020 12:57pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can you explain how competition fees are a vital component of your clubs finances? How much does the club take in in fees? How much does it give out in prizes?

What is the subscription?

Yeh I'm confused about that too..

Competition profit is surely minimal?

Green fees (incl. Societies)/Annual subs are the big revenue maker.

mike12 · 29-06-2020 1:21pm

A lot of clubs have a 10 euro comp fee.
My brother is a member of a small club down the west they have more than a 100 play in the comps every weekend with have of the fees taken in going to the running of the club.
Over the year that's 25 to 30k which to them is a huge chunk of their budget.

ShivasIrons · 29-06-2020 1:38pm

mike12 wrote: »

A lot of clubs have a 10 euro comp fee.
My brother is a member of a small club down the west they have more than a 100 play in the comps every weekend with have of the fees taken in going to the running of the club.
Over the year that's 25 to 30k which to them is a huge chunk of their budget.

How many members do they have? What is the annual budget? What is the subscription?

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 1:48pm

mike12 wrote: »

A lot of clubs have a 10 euro comp fee.
My brother is a member of a small club down the west they have more than a 100 play in the comps every weekend with have of the fees taken in going to the running of the club.
Over the year that's 25 to 30k which to them is a huge chunk of their budget.

Most of our competition entries go towards prizes for that competition and a pool for the majors (that have way more prizes)

callaway92 · 29-06-2020 1:49pm

Maybe open singles actually is a money maker.

Qualifiers once a week for 25 weeks for example

Members €5 and Visitors €15 - In the long run that might be worth some money alright but still not massive.

I would like to see a breakdown of the cut my club is taking mind you.

Miley Byrne · 29-06-2020 1:52pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Most of our competition entries go towards prizes for that competition and a pool for the majors (that have way more prizes)

Do your club not have the competitions sponsored? Sponsorship could cover 60-70% of value of prizes therefore that 60-70% of entry fees goes into the coffers. I know of smaller clubs where over the course of a year net income from comps would be 40-50K.

moycullen14 · 29-06-2020 1:59pm

Even if you had a 40K contribution from competitions, you only lost 3 months - say 10-15K. Same for green fees.

To me the big saving has got to be on wages. Between the various government schemes, you've got to be saving a huge amount - far in excess of any revenue loss. Never mind the increased membership.

I'd be very surprised if my club wasn't significantly better off this year than last.
The AGM will be interesting.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 2:24pm

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Do your club not have the competitions sponsored? Sponsorship could cover 60-70% of value of prizes therefore that 60-70% of entry fees goes into the coffers. I know of smaller clubs where over the course of a year net income from comps would be 40-50K.

Only the semi-opens have sponsorship, members comps are not.

29-06-2020 2:29pm

We are close to 100 new members. If even 30 of them become long term members that will be a good result as they are mainly in the under 40's age bracket.

Miley Byrne · 29-06-2020 2:38pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Only the semi-opens have sponsorship, members comps are not.

Might be an idea for you club to look in to

Wichita Lineman · 29-06-2020 2:45pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can you explain how competition fees are a vital component of your clubs finances? How much does the club take in in fees? How much does it give out in prizes?

What is the subscription?

So many questions. I'm obviously not going to quote specifics here but let's just leave it at the fact that in a small club every component of revenue is vital.

the.red.baron · 29-06-2020 2:48pm

Elm Green has a load of new members and has gone off and block booked half the timesheet for visitors and societies, in the post work timeslots as well

poor form really

finglashoop · 29-06-2020 3:10pm

the.red.baron wrote: »

Elm Green has a load of new members and has gone off and block booked half the timesheet for visitors and societies, in the post work timeslots as well

poor form really

And thats after discussing with carr golf and asking members not to bring guests

blue note · 29-06-2020 3:14pm

the.red.baron wrote: »

Elm Green has a load of new members and has gone off and block booked half the timesheet for visitors and societies, in the post work timeslots as well

poor form really

Do they have a requirement as a public course to have a certain amount of slots available for non members or something?

Seems a bit crazy if they can't meet the demand from members that they'd open up so much to visitors.

mike12 · 29-06-2020 3:48pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

How many members do they have? What is the annual budget? What is the subscription?

Around 300 members on a 9 hole course membership around the 500 mark.

1 part time greenkeeper I think is the only employee.

GreeBo · 29-06-2020 5:37pm

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Might be an idea for you club to look in to

I honestly dont think that would sit well with a lot of the members.
Personally I'm undecided, I can obviously see the benefits but I also think it can cheapen the place a little.

Golf is my Game · 29-06-2020 8:51pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can you explain how competition fees are a vital component of your clubs finances? How much does the club take in in fees? How much does it give out in prizes?

What is the subscription?

Competitions fees important to us too. Not vital, but important. About 20k-25k towards the general running of the club per year I think. About 30-40 percent of the €7 goes to prizes. Some could see it as unfair that all comp money doesnt go to comp prizes, and maybe in a rich club type setup that would be grand out. But I think its a fair cop. Effectively a surcharge on those playing on Saturdays and Sundays for prime time reserved slot golf. Its a bit the Ryanair phylosophy of charge it where you can get it. But if they didnt, then theyed have to get it by a sub rise which on the one hand could be argued is fairer that all contribute whether they play comps or not, but on the other, I think its only right that those who play at the more premium time of the week should pay a little more than just their membership for the benefit. I play about 30 weekends a year, so an extra €120 a year. Its still decent value. Even if it was shared to all the membership Id probably be looking at a 60 a year increase in my sub. Dont know the figures, but for sure it will have cost the club money not running them during the lockdown. Not sure what they would have saved in wages though.

fred funk }{ · 29-06-2020 9:46pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I honestly dont think that would sit well with a lot of the members.
Personally I'm undecided, I can obviously see the benefits but I also think it can cheapen the place a little.

Wow.

Golf is my Game · 29-06-2020 10:00pm

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Wow.

Ah there no doubt but they do now. Its not that there a bad club for ones that need the income. But its not as if their a real business transaction, and I think are more associated with country club or small towns where they are like small business giving something back to the community where they all know each other. But they are begging really, and its not as if its for a charity cause where there is some helping going on, it more just having golfers give themselves better prizes for their day out having fun anyway. They always look a bit cheap to me alright, and a comfortably funded club doesnt need to resort to them. Its a bit GAA vibe to it.

blue note · 29-06-2020 10:09pm

Golf is my Game wrote: »

Ah there no doubt but they do now. Its not that there a bad club for ones that need the income. But its not as if their a real business transaction, and I think are more associated with country club or small towns where they are like small business giving something back to the community where they all know each other. But they are begging really, and its not as if its for a charity cause where there is some helping going on, it more just having golfers give themselves better prizes for their day out having fun anyway. They always look a bit cheap to me alright, and a comfortably funded club doesnt need to resort to them. Its a bit GAA vibe to it.

It can also be a connection for a club to the community. Often the members with businesses will sponsor a comp, a bit of a way for them to give a little back. And the members might use their business a bit more. A bit of a way of supporting your fellow members.

It never crossed my mind that having a local sponsor would be cheapening an event.

Wichita Lineman · 30-06-2020 9:02am

Local sponsorship cheapening an event..................jesus i've heard it all now. If anything it enhances the event and helps build good relationships in the area. Most of our sponsors are connected to the club through being members or they are somehow related / employers / friends of members which is how they got involved in the first place. We'd survive without the sponsorship but would definitely be worse off without the goodwill it generates in the community.

I guess that's partly why I'd rather be involved with a small friendly community based club than a large metropolitan one. Each to their own of course.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 9:16am

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

Local sponsorship cheapening an event..................jesus i've heard it all now. If anything it enhances the event and helps build good relationships in the area. Most of our sponsors are connected to the club through being members or they are somehow related / employers / friends of members which is how they got involved in the first place. We'd survive without the sponsorship but would definitely be worse off without the goodwill it generates in the community.

I guess that's partly why I'd rather be involved with a small friendly community based club than a large metropolitan one. Each to their own of course.

Why do you automatically assume that a large metropolitan club isn't friendly or a community?
I think that says a lot more about your bias than the reality of the situation to be honest.

slingerz · 30-06-2020 9:52am

We have a lot of local businesses sponsor our comps and i think its great to see. Often they will be connected with a member and not be a business that most could interact with or be an established local business e.g. hotel/bar and i think it has positive impact in getting people to support those businesses.

I would think for our weekly comp that €100 would cover most of the prizes. Some of the members businesses will cover the bigger comps then

Wichita Lineman · 30-06-2020 9:53am

GreeBo wrote: »

Why do you automatically assume that a large metropolitan club isn't friendly or a community?
I think that says a lot more about your bias than the reality of the situation to be honest.

Greebo, you were the one making 'cheapening' remarks about local sponsorship which wasnt very friendly. No bias whatsoever.

blue note · 30-06-2020 9:58am

GreeBo wrote: »

Why do you automatically assume that a large metropolitan club isn't friendly or a community?
I think that says a lot more about your bias than the reality of the situation to be honest.

The idea that it would cheapen the club to accept sponsorship does hint towards the perception that golf clubs consider themselves above rather than part of a community.

The money side of it is obviously important. If a club saves 5 grand a year from accepting sponsors that can mean a lot to plenty of clubs. But there are plenty of clubs who accept sponsors because it's a way of letting members give a little bit more back and a way of helping the members.

It's disappointing to be honest to hear that some people think the local hardware store sponsoring an event would cheapen it. Now when they have a chainsaw as a prize (as I witnessed) that's a different problem, but that's another story!

srfc d16 · 30-06-2020 10:03am

My club would be in the same boat as Greebo.
Off the top of my head I can only recall one sponsored event per year over the last few years and that is from the same sponsor each year.
We have local sponsorship in the form of tee boxes being sponsored.
I don't see how sponsorship would enhance a competition unless there are a pretty small pool of players entering and therefore a small prize fund.

the.red.baron · 30-06-2020 10:17am

GreeBo wrote: »

I honestly dont think that would sit well with a lot of the members.
Personally I'm undecided, I can obviously see the benefits but I also think it can cheapen the place a little.

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joebloggs32 · 30-06-2020 10:32am

srfc d16 wrote: »

My club would be in the same boat as Greebo.
Off the top of my head I can only recall one sponsored event per year over the last few years and that is from the same sponsor each year.
We have local sponsorship in the form of tee boxes being sponsored.
I don't see how sponsorship would enhance a competition unless there are a pretty small pool of players entering and therefore a small prize fund.

I play in a very small rural club where every penny counts. To say its in financial difficulty would be an understatement. Having sponsors is a necessity to help run the comps, yet the sponsors definitely would reap the benefits to as many club members would be very conscious of their generosity and support them when possible in by putting business their way.
The pandemic has definitely brought in some very needed new members, who hopefully long term will stay at it. I have counted over 100 on the time sheet for this week's open singles. Last year it would have averaged about 30. I know its first week back but if the average was even 60 going forward it would be great.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 10:55am

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I play in a very small rural club where every penny counts. To say its in financial difficulty would be an understatement. Having sponsors is a necessity to help run the comps, yet the sponsors definitely would reap the benefits to as many club members would be very conscious of their generosity and support them when possible in by putting business their way.

"Sponsorship[1] is a cash and/or in-kind fee paid to a property (typically in sports, arts, entertainment or causes) in return for access to the exploitable commercial potential associated with that property."

Emphasis is mine.

To clarify, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it at all, its just about expectation. Many people wouldn't expect to pay €2K a year on top of a substantial joining fee and then also see the club taking sponsorship from local businesses.
The members are well within their rights to not want to be "used" by the club to generate revenue.

You don't see Joes Auto Repair sponsoring events or tees at Adare or many other courses, I don't see why its causing a furore here.

Also, thinking about it more, I believe we normally see sponsorship during society days, not during semi-opens.

blue note · 30-06-2020 11:07am

I can't imagine anyone would question that it's giving access to exploitable commercial potential. But the way I'd look at it is that the members are the club so doing a favour for the members by allowing them to sponsor a competition or pay for a bench or the like is complimenting the fact that it is a local club. The fact that you get revenue from it is a bonus if you're not in need of the money.

Ultimately I'm just surprised that the attitude by some members would be that sponsorship would cheapen the club in any way. If I remember correctly, you're in Grange? That struck me as a real local, community club. I thought they'd have strong ties with local businesses, as opposed to just the individuals who run / own the businesses.

And I can't imagine we'll see it, but I'd hazard a guess that if the yanks saw Joe's auto repair sponsoring a tee in a quaint Irish club like Ballybunion or something they'd think it was adorable! But that's a side point.

mike12 · 30-06-2020 11:50am

This took a weird turn, every Pro event and a lot of amature events have sponsors.

It is foolish not to if you have people will to go looking.

Not every club can charge 2k for membership or have a joining fee.

joebloggs32 · 30-06-2020 12:03pm

GreeBo wrote: »

"Sponsorship[1] is a cash and/or in-kind fee paid to a property (typically in sports, arts, entertainment or causes) in return for access to the exploitable commercial potential associated with that property."

Emphasis is mine.

To clarify, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it at all, its just about expectation. Many people wouldn't expect to pay €2K a year on top of a substantial joining fee and then also see the club taking sponsorship from local businesses.
The members are well within their rights to not want to be "used" by the club to generate revenue.

You don't see Joes Auto Repair sponsoring events or tees at Adare or many other courses, I don't see why its causing a furore here.

Also, thinking about it more, I believe we normally see sponsorship during society days, not during semi-opens.

The club im in would nearly pay lads to join if they could afford it! If we had a 2k sub we would have less than 50 members
Rural Ireland has never recovered from the last crash. The club did have an entrance fee until the crash, but thsts long gone. People in their 20s and 30s not only left the club, but migrated/emigrated. We were left with a massively declining and ageing membership base. Social membership and u35 membership is now on offer to try and bring people back. We are in last chance saloon as a vulture fund bought our debt, so any revenue be it holding a weekly bonus ball raffle from the lotto or sponsorship is needed.
Its a club with a proud tradition. 3 mens Irish internationals have come from the club in the last 3 decades but when your on your on your knees you will need all the help you can get.

GreeBo · 30-06-2020 12:30pm

mike12 wrote: »

This took a weird turn, every Pro event and a lot of amature events have sponsors.

It is foolish not to if you have people will to go looking.

Not every club can charge 2k for membership or have a joining fee.

No one is saying that every club can or indeed should, its just a difference of opinion and differing circumstances, neither is right nor wrong.

You think its foolish, others may think it crass. Everyone is entitled to hold an opinion.

Golf is my Game · 30-06-2020 1:10pm

Sponsorship probably gives the wrong impression. It's more like a charitable donation, where small local business due to link to the club or people already in it, give it a few quid through their business. Like they give something to the Lions, the StV de P, or the town band. It's a community thing, where people either do it for the general good of their town to help a club exist, or have their arms twisted a little and it's just easier to do it than not. But it's for clubs on the margins, and is more a country thing than Dublin. Fundamentally, people should pay for their hobby, and loot they are going to collect if they win. And full or affluent clubs can do that. But those less flush use that angle to help them pay the bills. And while it does have a 'cheap' vibe to it, cause that's what it is when you can't fully pay your own way, that's not that theirs anything wrong with it either. You do what you've got to do to play our game.

Wichita Lineman · 30-06-2020 1:47pm

I disagree totally that local sponsorship has a 'cheap vibe' to it. It's sponsorship at our level the same way other competitions / events are sponsored by the multi billionaires of this world for clubs at that level.

pinkdoubleeagle · 30-06-2020 2:20pm

Golf is my Game wrote: »

Sponsorship probably gives the wrong impression. It's more like a charitable donation, where small local business due to link to the club or people already in it, give it a few quid through their business. Like they give something to the Lions, the StV de P, or the town band. It's a community thing, where people either do it for the general good of their town to help a club exist, or have their arms twisted a little and it's just easier to do it than not. But it's for clubs on the margins, and is more a country thing than Dublin. Fundamentally, people should pay for their hobby, and loot they are going to collect if they win. And full or affluent clubs can do that. But those less flush use that angle to help them pay the bills. And while it does have a 'cheap' vibe to it, cause that's what it is when you can't fully pay your own way, that's not that theirs anything wrong with it either. You do what you've got to do to play our game.

No Offence, but your posts are very difficult to read

Is your club benefiting from the COVID lockdown?

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