Ridiculous short interval at traffic lights

davindub · 27-06-2020 6:08pm #1

I just want guage how widespread this problem is, but over the last few months, traffic lights sequence in north dublin city (Beaumount, Santry) has changed. Some lights are only green for a brief second on major roads and it means only 2 cars get out at a time.

Anyone else experienced this in other areas?

easyvision · 27-06-2020 6:14pm

Its the same all over Dublin, apparently to allow pedestrians to not be crowded at lights..... its all over the suburbs though too with little or no pedestrians causing long tailbacks at most sets of lights now and slow drivers taking off as its turning yellow. I think its to get people out of cars also (make traffic so bad that people give up on driving), they wont change the lights back now unless a huge amount of people formally complain which wont happen. God help the country when kids go back to school, a 15min journey will take an hour and walking will be faster literally. Also for some reason ti seems to be giving more time or equal time to minor roads onto major roads and traffic is tailed back on blackrock bypass now most times of the day and this is off peak travel.

Ashleigh1986 · 27-06-2020 6:41pm

Same in galway .
I drive for a living so know the lights that are the worst for timing .
What usually happens at these lights , is the first driver is on their phone , so when the lights go green they're slow to move .
They of course will get tru but it's the 3rd VECIHCLE on that will struggle to get tru lights .
That's the main reason why so many motorists are running red lights ... Pure frustration .

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 6:45pm

couple of sets along ballymun road which do this, particularly where shangan road crosses it, in the centre of ballymun (i.e. the junction becaise the student accomodation under construction). i haven't spotted any particularly long pedestrian sequences there, though.

HeidiHeidi · 27-06-2020 6:48pm

It's like when there was no traffic, they switched all the lights to night-time mode, but forgot to switch them back now that traffic is increasing back to near normal levels.

There's a couple of sets on my route home that barely let two cars through, even if they're on the ball.

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 6:50pm

the ones i know of were on those short sequences long before lockdown.

AlekSmart · 27-06-2020 6:57pm

davindub wrote: »

I just want guage how widespread this problem is, but over the last few months, traffic lights sequence in north dublin city (Beaumount, Santry) has changed. Some lights are only green for a brief second on major roads and it means only 2 cars get out at a time.

Anyone else experienced this in other areas?

What you are experiencing is the outward spread of Dublin City Council's post COVID-19 strategy.
This document is available at http://www.dublincity.ie/covidmobilityprogramme and is well worth a read,as it now encompasses some stringent new Policies being introduced in their area,and doubtlessly followed by the other LA's in the GDR.

The scope and extent of these new impositions are all highly arguable in their own right,but the City Council has chosen to use the COVID-19 situation to stifle debate and/or closer scrutiny of these measures.

In addition,as the new Government now takes power,we will see a significant degree of centralized political force behind such schemes,few of which will garner much widespread support amongst Citizens attempting to rebuild their working lives.

In relation to your specific point regarding Traffic Signals,Pages 13 & 14 refer to......

5.2. Pedestrian Signal Crossings and Waiting Times

In order to reduce the time that people are waiting for pedestrian crossings to turn green, the maximum amount of time allocated to a complete traffic cycle, (allowing all movements in the junction operate, if demanded) has been reduced from 120 seconds to 80 seconds throughout the city. As the amount of time for the pedestrian green and amber man is based on the time taken to safely cross the road, and therefore remains the same, the additional time has been taken from that allocated to vehicles.

This has resulted in shorter green times at all junctions and an expected reduction in traffic capacity of up to 30%. As traffic volumes increase, following advancement through the different phases of Interim Mobility Intervention Programme for Dublin City the government roadmap for easing of restrictions, and while the requirement for social distancing remains in place, the cycle length will remain capped at 80 seconds. This will result in major reduction in capacity for motorised vehicles going forward.

The impact of this on public transport journey times and reliability will also require careful monitoring.

In addition to reducing the wait times for all junctions, a number of pedestrian crossings in the city centre and key locations in urban villages have been set to automatically operate from 7am-7pm to reduce vehicular speed, to aid pedestrian movement and to minimise contact
with signal push buttons.

Notwithstanding DCC's highly questionable projected Public Transport use fugures, (Page 6) where they suggest a post COVID-19 figure of 80% capacity reduction, whereas from Monday 29th June Dublin's Public Transport capacity level becomes 50%,which begs the question as to whether DCC will have to good grace and competence to recognise this and adjust their "measures" accordingly?

2019 LIKELY FUTURE POTENTIAL FUTURE

All Public Transport 116,287 80% Capacity Reduction 30,000

Car 57,985 Approx. 30% reduction 41,000
Taxi 2,661 Assume 30% reduction 1,900

Walk 24,691 Target 100% increase 50,000

Cycle 13,131 Target 200% increase 39,000

Goods 983 No change 1,000

Motorcycles 1,485 No change 1,485

Paying particular attention to DCC's use of the term "Target",it can be seen that Public Transport users are being expected to provide the vast majority of DCC's expected 300% increase in Cycling and 100% increase in Walking.

The manner in which DCC's shrugs it's administrative shoulders in relation to Motorcycling and Goods Vehicle usage,speaks volumes for just how seriously this Document requires strong challenge and rebuttal,particularly as the Council appears fully intent on implementing significant amounts of this policy during the dead of night and with minimal warning to those groups of Road users now very firmly in it's sights.

AlekSmart · 27-06-2020 7:14pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

It's like when there was no traffic, they switched all the lights to night-time mode, but forgot to switch them back now that traffic is increasing back to near normal levels.

There's a couple of sets on my route home that barely let two cars through, even if they're on the ball.

There's little forgetful in any of this.

It appears that the time for widespread enforced changes in behavioural traits is now to be seized under the cloak of Covid-19 and "Social Distancing".

Take,for example,the Road Safety Authority's expression of concern on the increase in Pedestrian Deaths.

Following a lengthy preamble in which Motorist behaviour was repeatedly referenced,the outgoing CEO manages to hit the bullseye without even realizing it....

https://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2020/Concern-over-speeding-drivers-as-number-of-pedestrian-deaths-doubles-in-2020-/

Drivers need to slow down and anticipate increased numbers of people out walking and cycling. I’d also ask drivers to please be conscious of the fact that people out walking will be trying to adhere to social distancing so may have to cross or step out on the road.

Ms Murdoch studiously failed to add " without looking to see if it was safe" as is being demonstrated by misguided masked,earphone wearing,pedestrians throughout the Country,all apparently convinced they will be immediately fatally infected by a 2 second pass of another human being in free air outdoor conditions.

PASSING CLOSE TO SOMEBODY ON THE FOOTPATH WILL NOT KILL YOU FROM COVID-19.......BEING HIT BY A MOTOR VEHICLE MOST LIKELY WILL !

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0627/1150015-coronavirus-covid19-ireland/

Generally, you need to be 15 minutes or more in the vicinity of an infected person AND within two metres of them, to be considered at-risk, or a close contact.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 27-06-2020 7:25pm

Walking and cycling will hopefully take off more.

HeidiHeidi · 27-06-2020 7:29pm

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! wrote: »

Walking and cycling will hopefully take off more.

As above, with a bit of care being taken on all sides!

I've seen one jogger nearly go under a car, and then 10 steps later almost take out a cyclist when he dodged out off the footpath, and a pal of mine has a broken leg after being knocked off off his bike by a pedestrian - common factor to both, headphones!

We all have to adjust to the New Normal! (that hateful phrase)

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 7:32pm

headphones are a red herring, it's the looking that counts.

punisher5112 · 27-06-2020 7:34pm

I have noticed a lot like this and it's definitely from the sensors getting use to less traffic, I've never seen them change so quickly.

People are also extremely slow at taking off and are way too busy on their phones.

magicbastarder · 27-06-2020 7:37pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

the Council appears fully intent on implementing significant amounts of this policy during the dead of night and with minimal warning to those groups of Road users now very firmly in it's sights.

that's a very strange and over-dramatic way of phrasing it.
i don't need to be informed beforehand about changes to traffic light sequences; it's not as if i have a countdown in my head of when i expect the light to go green, and go for it when zero is reached; i simply wait for the light to go green.

HeidiHeidi · 27-06-2020 7:47pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

headphones are a red herring, it's the looking that counts.

That was my point!

the boss of me · 27-06-2020 7:57pm

Heading south on Clanbrassill St this morning it took over ten minutes to travel from St Circular Rd to Harold's Cross bridge.. each light sequence only allowed about three cars through. Very frustrating.

AlekSmart · 27-06-2020 9:00pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's a very strange and over-dramatic way of phrasing it.
i don't need to be informed beforehand about changes to traffic light sequences; it's not as if i have a countdown in my head of when i expect the light to go green, and go for it when zero is reached; i simply wait for the light to go green.

Traffic light phases are but a single element of the mix.

Facing directly into an impossible manouvering situation following DCC's installation of physical barriers in two seperate locations over a Sat Night/Sun Morning simply underlined the reality.

It is little wonder the RSA are 'concerned' about the rise in Pedestrian fatalities when sister agencies such as DCC pay contractors handsomely to install physical elements without ANY obvious attempt to carry out a risk assessment at the locations concerned.

Take a ramble along to the Nassau St/Kildare Street junction and perhaps briefly wonder why several of the original fixing points had to be hastily con-sawed out of it ....then pedal along to the junction of Chelmsford Rd and Ranelagh Village and wonder aloud why the exact same brute force was also required here..?

It could,of course be just the great unwashed being too set-in-their-ways,to fully appreciate the incredible prowess of DCC's Roads & Engineering professionals,or then again,some might see it as somewhat less thjan talented professionals tinkering around just for the sake of it...I dunno...I'll leave it to those same Professionals to reassure me as the Country attempts to recover.

punisher5112 · 27-06-2020 9:31pm

We should get Eamon Ryan on the case, new transport minister

Cookie_Monster · 27-06-2020 10:54pm

Why are pedestrians phases completely separate to traffic phases instead of integrated. Could keep much of the same capacity if lights for ped and vehicle were green in the same direction at the same time

punisher5112 · 27-06-2020 11:19pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why are pedestrians phases completely separate to traffic phases instead of integrated. Could keep much of the same capacity if lights for ped and vehicle were green in the same direction at the same time

What I've seen now is the cycle lights fitted the last few years are gradually been tuned to let bikes go 1st.

trellheim · 28-06-2020 6:30pm

Why are pedestrians phases completely separate to traffic phases instead of integrated. Could keep much of the same capacity if lights for ped and vehicle were green in the same direction at the same time

Although it sounds nice, for example at a four-way junction if a pedestrian is crossing he has to now step out in front of someone going in the same direction turning left ; unless you have filter lights it doesn't work.

Also given the predilection of red light jumpers you absolutely have to give a huge buffer to pedestrian lights these days for safety purposes . They really really should clamp down on RLJs its the scourge of Dublin

magicbastarder · 28-06-2020 6:39pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Why are pedestrians phases completely separate to traffic phases instead of integrated. Could keep much of the same capacity if lights for ped and vehicle were green in the same direction at the same time

at a lot of lights i know, they are? i.e. you get a specific direction green at lights (straight on cars allowed, left turning not, etc.) because left turning cars would cross a ped crossing showing a green. i may have misunderstood you though.

testarossa40 · 28-06-2020 9:11pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

What I've seen now is the cycle lights fitted the last few years are gradually been tuned to let bikes go 1st.

Well, naturally Ayatollah Keegan cannot be expected to be kept waiting with the 4-wheeled hoi polloi...

easyvision · 28-06-2020 9:16pm

the boss of me wrote: »

Heading south on Clanbrassill St this morning it took over ten minutes to travel from St Circular Rd to Harold's Cross bridge.. each light sequence only allowed about three cars through. Very frustrating.

This is the new normal. I think its to make driving as slow and annoying as possible so it forces people onto another form of transport, which a lot simply will not do. Dublin will turn into more of a nightmare than it already is. Once schools go back it will literally be faster to walk anywhere.

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 9:22pm

davindub wrote: »

I just want guage how widespread this problem is, but over the last few months, traffic lights sequence in north dublin city (Beaumount, Santry) has changed. Some lights are only green for a brief second on major roads and it means only 2 cars get out at a time.

Anyone else experienced this in other areas?

Just apply the standard motorist attitude. 2 cars on green, 2 through on orange and 1 through on red

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 9:25pm

easyvision wrote: »

This is the new normal. I think its to make driving as slow and annoying as possible so it forces people onto another form of transport, which a lot simply will not do. Dublin will turn into more of a nightmare than it already is. Once schools go back it will literally be faster to walk anywhere.

This was already the case it's called traffic. DCC is simply rewarding the most effective modes of transport and its long over due

AlekSmart · 28-06-2020 9:30pm

easyvision wrote: »

This is the new normal. I think its to make driving as slow and annoying as possible so it forces people onto another form of transport, which a lot simply will not do. Dublin will turn into more of a nightmare than it already is. Once schools go back it will literally be faster to walk anywhere.

It may well be the new 'Normal' deep within Civic Offices.

However,it must be recognised that the thrust of DCC's 'New Reality' policy is ensure that it's target of a 300% INCREASE in Cycling is achieved.

The complementary target of a 100% increase in walking is somewhat more realistic,and is even a by-product of reducing the number of Bus Stops in the central area,thereby ensuring that even Bus Customers get their pedestrian hats on.

The scary aspect is that,from their own figures DCC are effectively hi-jacking Bus Users and advising them that from here on it's the Bike for you....whether you are willing or not !

DCC,and before them the oul' Corpo have aways been great at the Policy stuff...Let them at it I say.....:)

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 9:49pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I

The scary aspect is that,from their own figures DCC are effectively hi-jacking Bus Users and advising them that from here on it's the Bike for you....whether you are willing or not !

No body is hi-jacking anyone your basically being presented with options a) take the bus but they are running at half capacity and you might be waiting a while. Also the bus has the highest risk of covid. b) drive but enjoy hell scape traffic when more people start returning to the office. c) cycle if you want, it will be slightly safer than before

magicbastarder · 28-06-2020 10:00pm

the boss of me wrote: »

Heading south on Clanbrassill St this morning it took over ten minutes to travel from St Circular Rd to Harold's Cross bridge.. each light sequence only allowed about three cars through. Very frustrating.

i know what you're saying, but this to me only serves to highlight how mind bendingly inefficient cars are at moving people around.
the distance you mention is 290m, so maybe 60 or 70 people if all the traffic was private cars (allowing 6m per queuing car, 1.25 occupants per car) - in ten minutes. one person every ten seconds.

davindub · 28-06-2020 10:01pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Just apply the standard motorist attitude. 2 cars on green, 2 through on orange and 1 through on red

It's now one on green (due to red light jumper), one on orange and 1 on red.

It's the most I've seen get through. 3 light wait for less than 10 cars. This is kind of bizarre, in all my years driving in Dublin, the only place I see large concentrations of pedestrians is in the city centre.

Hope they realise that they are not good at realising the consequences of their actions soon....

Eric Cartman · 28-06-2020 10:07pm

they've changed the lights along the quays to give the cyclists a 20 second head start and artificially slow down the car traffic. The great road diet achieving nothing and infuriating everyone.

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 10:12pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they've changed the lights along the quays to give the cyclists a 20 second head start and artificially slow down the car traffic. The great road diet achieving nothing and infuriating everyone.

You mean the quays that are basically a 24 hour traffic jam?

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 10:14pm

davindub wrote: »

Hope they realise that they are not good at realising the consequences of their actions soon....

By consequences you mean getting more people in and out of the city quicker? Yup they know what they are doing

28-06-2020 10:17pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they've changed the lights along the quays to give the cyclists a 20 second head start and artificially slow down the car traffic. The great road diet achieving nothing and infuriating everyone.

I don't know, all the cyclists and pedestrians are enjoying the reprioritisation

Definitely a lot safer and definitely allowing for more people to walk & cycle safely

28-06-2020 10:17pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they've changed the lights along the quays to give the cyclists a 20 second head start and artificially slow down the car traffic. The great road diet achieving nothing and infuriating everyone.

The cars are going to have to give cyclists the head start anyway. The light sequence just formalises that. When there are tens of cyclists surrounding the cars at the front of the line, the cars aren’t going anywhere until the cyclists have gotten out of the way. That dynamic was already starting before COVID. It’s not a traffic light problem. It is just a consequence of there being loads and loads more cyclists. That trend is not going to change any time soon, so expect to see the traffic management system evolve to reflect it

RobAMerc · 28-06-2020 10:22pm

noticed this on the prom in Dun Laoighre the other day. Lights barely let one car through, then stayed green longer for non existent traffic from Park road - then non existent pedestrians - before changing for a 6 seconds for cars on prom again ( the only one with actual traffic on it )
In the 40 mins I was there 90% of the traffic was along the prom wainting for fantasy pedestrians, just stupid.

ridiculous council looking to frustrate motorists again - aholes :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 10:34pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

noticed this on the prom in Dun Laoighre the other day. Lights barely let one car through, then stayed green longer for non existent traffic from Park road - then non existent pedestrians - before changing for a 6 seconds for cars on prom again ( the only one with actual traffic on it )
In the 40 mins I was there 90% of the traffic was along the prom wainting for fantasy pedestrians, just stupid.

ridiculous council looking to frustrate motorists again - aholes :rolleyes:

As a motorist you get 90% of the transport funding. 90% of the road allocation. The majority of the time at the lights. Can basically drive door to door to most destinations. And you're here to plead the beal bocht?

Pythagorean · 28-06-2020 10:34pm

Waiting to turn right onto Sandyford Rd, near the Dundrum town centre, the green filter comes on, but I have to wait while 3 cars blatantly ignore a red light to turn right across my path. I finally get through on orange, while 20 odd cars wait behind me. Not good for the blood pressure.

LeinsterDub · 28-06-2020 10:40pm

Pythagorean wrote: »

Waiting to turn right onto Sandyford Rd, near the Dundrum town centre, the green filter comes on, but I have to wait while 3 cars blatantly ignore a red light to turn right across my path. I finally get through on orange, while 20 odd cars wait behind me. Not good for the blood pressure.

Cycling is great for your blood pressure.

davindub · 29-06-2020 12:20am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

By consequences you mean getting more people in and out of the city quicker? Yup they know what they are doing

I doubt many people hike from Beaumount to the city and back, but if they are they probably appreciate stopping at lights to rest and are more concerned with wind resistance.

Cookie_Monster · 29-06-2020 12:36am

magicbastarder wrote: »

at a lot of lights i know, they are? i.e. you get a specific direction green at lights (straight on cars allowed, left turning not, etc.) because left turning cars would cross a ped crossing showing a green. i may have misunderstood you though.

over here in NZ left/right turning while the pedestrian light is green is allowed, but obviously vehicles must yield to pedestrians. What happens here is the pedestrian lights turn green about 2 seconds before the vehicle lights do in the same direction. Amost every standard junction operates like this once the button has been pressed. Works seamlessly and keep capacity much higher than in Ireland where sequences are kept seperate.

LeinsterDub · 29-06-2020 4:24am

davindub wrote: »

I doubt many people hike from Beaumount to the city and back, but if they are they probably appreciate stopping at lights to rest and are more concerned with wind resistance.

That's like a 20 - 30 minute cycle. Perfectly cycleable for the vast majority of the population.

alentejo · 29-06-2020 10:52am

As a cyclist (and some time driver), I have noted very short green phases for general traffic.

Cycling with my 8 year old daughter recently, some of the green phases for traffic are extremely short (2/3 seconds), that we could not safely get across a road junction when stopped at a red light and proceeding on green. On one occasion, she was a little slow in starting and the light went red as she was about one-third the way across a very busy junction. Very short phases of green for traffic are dangerous in my opinion both for pedestrians and cyclists.

I get very frustrated with the efforts of so called traffic engineers. Sometimes they are so focused on being any car that they dont seem to get what cyclists actually need!

cgcsb · 29-06-2020 11:16am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they've changed the lights along the quays to give the cyclists a 20 second head start and artificially slow down the car traffic. The great road diet achieving nothing and infuriating everyone.

There are more cyclists and pedestrians using the quays than motorists so surely it's improving the situation for the majority and infuriating a tiny minority of irrational individuals.

cgcsb · 29-06-2020 11:17am

RobAMerc wrote: »

noticed this on the prom in Dun Laoighre the other day. Lights barely let one car through, then stayed green longer for non existent traffic from Park road - then non existent pedestrians - before changing for a 6 seconds for cars on prom again ( the only one with actual traffic on it )
In the 40 mins I was there 90% of the traffic was along the prom wainting for fantasy pedestrians, just stupid.

ridiculous council looking to frustrate motorists again - aholes :rolleyes:

walk or cycle so.

L1011 · 29-06-2020 1:07pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they've changed the lights along the quays to give the cyclists a 20 second head start and artificially slow down the car traffic. The great road diet achieving nothing and infuriating everyone.

Most are 3 to 5 second - there's one longer one at Church Street as the cycle lane changes sides

Isambard · 29-06-2020 3:49pm

isn't it the case that if the light goes green and the first car is slow to move, the system assumes there are no cars waiting and goes red again?

trellheim · 30-06-2020 12:34pm

I've read back the thread. All the named junctions are plagued by RLJs ; the traffic engineers MUST give more time to pedestrians due to knobs ignoring lights.

In one or two of the junctions extra time has been given to cyclists to allow safe progression, but its not all of the junctions. I am very firmly of the view that this is DCC protecting pedestrians from absolute knob-head drivers who thinks its OK to go on a yellow.

magicbastarder · 30-06-2020 12:49pm

on that note - i was on collins avenue, crossing over the swords road yesterday (eastbound) during rush hour. main junction in whitehall
the way the sequence works there is that traffic coming from donneycarney gets full green first - for them to go straight on towards DCU, or take a right to swing north up towards the M1.

we got the green, after the above traffic did - and couldn't move, due to a stream of the above traffic driving clear through their red to make the turn northbound. by the time the last car and van passed, the lights were already going amber for us.

07Lapierre · 30-06-2020 1:44pm

trellheim wrote: »

I've read back the thread. All the named junctions are plagued by RLJs ; the traffic engineers MUST give more time to pedestrians due to knobs ignoring lights.

In one or two of the junctions extra time has been given to cyclists to allow safe progression, but its not all of the junctions. I am very firmly of the view that this is DCC protecting pedestrians from absolute knob-head drivers who thinks its OK to go on a yellow.

Reducing the speed limit to 30kph and having speed cameras at every junction ( along with actual enforcement from the Gardai) is needed. Anything else is just “window dressing” and a total waste of time.

the boss of me · 04-07-2020 1:28pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know what you're saying, but this to me only serves to highlight how mind bendingly inefficient cars are at moving people around.
the distance you mention is 290m, so maybe 60 or 70 people if all the traffic was private cars (allowing 6m per queuing car, 1.25 occupants per car) - in ten minutes. one person every ten seconds.

I think you're missing the point. It's the ridiculously short time the traffic light is staying green that is causing the problem and making the car so inefficient. But it's not just cars being held up. There is no bus priority on that particular stretch of road so the short sequence is having an adverse effect on buses.

magicbastarder · 04-07-2020 2:31pm

oh, i never said i thought the light sequence was adequate; i regularly drive through a couple of sets of lights where the light is already going amber by the time the third car is in the junction, and i don't see the specific benefit. that short sequence isn't at all times of the day, it only seems to be applied at specific times (and i don't actually know yet what the pattern is)
but it's not the lights which make cars inefficient, they're already inefficient and the lights amplify that.

Ridiculous short interval at traffic lights

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