How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?

Dum_Dum · 28-06-2020 10:38am #1

Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?

While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.

I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.

Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?

StringerBell · 28-06-2020 10:55am

I'd expect it will be business as usual, with some moves toward trying to win votes later in the term.

Harry Palmr · 28-06-2020 12:19pm

Thread merge with the GE?

Hostility would suggest they knew we were here.

alta stare · 28-06-2020 12:29pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?

While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.

I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.

Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?

Why would they even dream of downgrading the M9...what purpose would that serve?

I cant see them touching WIT.... downgrading or upgrading.

Waterford Airport is dead and buried anyway. It was never going to take off (pun intended)

As for the government being hostile to Waterford.....do you not think you are being a little bit dramatic with that kind of wording?

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 1:27pm

Waterford Town will get a fourth mosque.

Harry Palmr · 28-06-2020 1:30pm

Where are the other three?

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 1:33pm

Waterford
Waterford Mosque, 1 Viewmount, Waterford
TAWHEED CENTER ,47 MERCHANTS QUAY, WATERFORD, X91 T2CR
AL-MUNIR ISLAMIC CENTRE, UNIT 10A, PARK ROAD BUSINESS PARK, PARK ROAD, WATERFORD, X91 NV32

karlitob · 28-06-2020 1:33pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?

While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.

I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.

Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?

Not as hostile as Waterford is to everyone else.

For some reason, notions of having a university in a small city, in a small country, and two cath-labs that are not required.

It’s either a massive inferiority complex or a massive superiority complex. I can’t figure it out.

Zaph · 28-06-2020 1:39pm

Given that they've only just been appointed I'd say give them a chance to do something first before giving out about them. But more importantly, why would any government be hostile to anywhere in the country? They may not treat somewhere with the same level of importance that the locals feel they merit, but that's not the same as being hostile. The persecution complex displayed in the OP is quite staggering.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 1:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can see them clamping down hard and cutting the town off from state funding as a punishment for voting SF

No universaity is a definite.further downgrade of ardkeen to continue

Id be suprised if half of the proposed infrasrructure geos ahead,they hate waterford in dublin at best of times anyway

What downgrade are you talking about? What policy decision are you referencing? Irish people have a fascination of having a full complement of health services on their doorstep - which are inherently unsafe.

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 1:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see them clamping down hard and cutting the town off from state funding as a punishment for voting SF

No universaity is a definite.further downgrade of ardkeen to continue

Id be suprised if half of the proposed infrasrructure geos ahead,they hate waterford in dublin at best of times anyway

Maybe, I could see it being the first time in my lifetime that Fiana Fail will not return a td for Waterford. Mary Butler got quite a few votes from West Waterford, they'll be more likely to vote for an actual West Waterford candidate next time. If she doesn't deliver 24/7 cardiac care which is the minimum for anyone in the East of the county and she loses votes to a West Waterford candidate I don't see her getting in. She already dropped nearly 4k of first preference votes from 2016 to 2020.

All hypotheticals of course

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 1:49pm

karlitob wrote: »

What downgrade are you talking about? What policy decision are you referencing? Irish people have a fascination of having a full complement of health services on their doorstep - which are inherently unsafe.

Youre saying the not being able to deal with heart attacks outside of 9 to 5 monday to friday is safe? You can read a bit more about how common it is here: https://ihda.ie/

Edit: the thing imr eferencong ehre is: "Heart Disease is the world’s biggest killer. 1 in 4 people will die from heart disease or stroke." that might be hypebole or exaggerated but it is consistently one of the biggest killers worldwide.

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 1:55pm

White bread causes heart disease, time to ban the blaa.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 2:14pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

Youre saying the not being able to deal with heart attacks outside of 9 to 5 monday to friday is safe? You can read a bit more about how common it is here: https://ihda.ie/

Edit: the thing imr eferencong ehre is: "Heart Disease is the world’s biggest killer. 1 in 4 people will die from heart disease or stroke." that might be hypebole or exaggerated but it is consistently one of the biggest killers worldwide.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.

I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.

The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.

But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 2:16pm

There are insufficient numbers of students in Wateford getting over 450 points in the LC but that's no stopping everyone demanding a university.

28-06-2020 2:17pm

karlitob wrote: »

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.

I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.

The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.

But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.

Is it true.....waterford has at present no consultant cardilogist and the hospiteal at whitfield is covering for them

Are we to honestly believe that we will have a 2nd cath lab inside 4.and half years??

They are going to slash budget for ardkeen and then claim its unfit for purpose to justify closing it.....its what they do to everything here and will likely do it more so as punishment for having no ffg representive from the city

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 2:19pm

They'll turn Ardkeen into another homeless shelter like with St John's College.

Big Bag of Chips · 28-06-2020 2:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it true.....waterford has at present no consultant cardilogist and the hospiteal at whitfield is covering for them

No. That's not true. UHW has 3 full time consultant cardiologist plus a locum. Whitfield has been "covering for" the whole hospital recently with some procedures being moved out there during Covid to reduce footfall to the hospital that was actually dealing with Covid cases. But it was the UHW consultants going out to Whitfield to perform the procedures.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 2:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it true.....waterford has at present no consultant cardilogist and the hospiteal at whitfield is covering for them

Are we to honestly believe that we will have a 2nd cath lab inside 4.and half years??

They are going to slash budget for ardkeen and then claim its unfit for purpose to justify closing it.....its what they do to everything here and will likely do it more so as punishment for having no ffg representive from the city

You’re being silly now. The health budget has increased year on year for decades. Services don’t close - they change where they are provided. There’s no removal of services in Waterford as far as I’m aware. Not getting a second lab is not the same as a downgrade. Unless you have an inferiority complex.

28-06-2020 2:35pm

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

No. That's not true. UHW has 3 full time consultant cardiologist plus a locum. Whitfield has been "covering for" the whole hospital recently with some procedures being moved out there during Covid to reduce footfall to the hospital that was actually dealing with Covid cases. But it was the UHW consultants going out to Whitfield to perform the procedures.

Im lead to belive,that the consultant cardilogist in ardkeen had a heart attack late 2019 early 2020 and whitfield has been covering since??

Is it true the mobile cat lab was taken away during coronavirus?

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 2:39pm

karlitob wrote: »

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.

I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.

The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.

But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.

An hour and half is not an acceptable time if you have a heart attack and thats door to door. You die or have worse outcomes given every minute. I agree with all the points about exercise etc. and think we could do a lot more with initiatives in exercise, eating, cooking and education etc. The sad fact is that it will not reach many people and there are plenty of heart and stroke problems that have very little to do with diet and lifestyle. Ill hold off on going around with a placard deamding people exercise more for now.

I just think that dealing with regularly occurring life threatening and life altering scenarios should be better resourced. If it takes more money to draw cardiologists here then thats what it takes, Waterford and the South East has set a clear priority on this for expenditure. It would be like if someone rang a suicide hotline and if they're from Waterford they have a waiting time of half an hour whereas someone from Dublin gets straight through to someone who can help them.

I really do get the whole thing about personal responsibility but I don't think someone should die for it or be in a wheelchair, especially when this personal responsibility only matters if you live in the South East or areas like Sligo. Also the financial costs of ensuring theres actual cardiac care is far outweighed by the cost of rehabilitation etc. when there are much worse outcomes for patietns depending on time

The fact of the matter is that you will be affected by this and you will know more than one person who will have a heart attack and I dont know how you can be so callous when it will affect so much of the population, if it was 1 in 20 or something I could understand concentration of resources but for something that affects around 1 in 4 and is pretty regular....

karlitob · 28-06-2020 2:52pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

An hour and half is not an acceptable time if you have a heart attack and thats door to door. You die or have worse outcomes given every minute. I agree with all the points about exercise etc. and think we could do a lot more with initiatives in exercise, eating, cooking and education etc. The sad fact is that it will not reach many people and there are plenty of heart and stroke problems that have very little to do with diet and lifestyle. Ill hold off on going around with a placard deamding people exercise more for now.

I just think that dealing with regularly occurring life threatening and life altering scenarios should be better resourced. If it takes more money to draw cardiologists here then thats what it takes, Waterford and the South East has set a clear priority on this for expenditure. It would be like if someone rang a suicide hotline and if they're from Waterford they have a waiting time of half an hour whereas someone from Dublin gets straight through to someone who can help them.

I really do get the whole thing about personal responsibility but I don't think someone should die for it or be in a wheelchair, especially when this personal responsibility only matters if you live in the South East or areas like Sligo. Also the financial costs of ensuring theres actual cardiac care is far outweighed by the cost of rehabilitation etc. when there are much worse outcomes for patietns depending on time

The fact of the matter is that you will be affected by this and you will know more than one person who will have a heart attack and I dont know how you can be so callous when it will affect so much of the population, if it was 1 in 20 or something I could understand concentration of resources but for something that affects around 1 in 4 and is pretty regular....

I refute, and find offensive, any impugning of my character as being callous. Watch your tongue.

There is only evidence based practice. If you think that consultant cardiologists should be paid more in Waterford just because the people of Waterford want something that they have no more entitlement to that any other citizen of this country, then there’s not much I can do to change that opinion - nor does it appear to stop you playing the man rather than the ball.

What would stop letterkenny demanding that mental health consultants should be paid more to go there, or GPs be paid more to go to Cahirciveen.

10,000 people die of a heart attack every year. 7000 have a stroke. The interventions and treatments to prevent are far cheaper and more effective to what you are demanding. Those interventions also have a similarly high effect on other conditions - such as mental health issues. Whereas a stent only works on one part of one organ.

Citizens have rights as well as responsibilities. Those responsibilities include caring for your own health, as well as paying for that service. Who’s taxes should we increase and to how much. Everyone wants better services but no one describes who will pay for it.

If you have decided that an hour and a half is not an acceptable time - you might enlighten us as to how long is an acceptable time. Unless you think everyone City town and village require a 24/7 cath lab.

28-06-2020 2:57pm

karlitob wrote: »

I refute, and find offensive, any impugning of my character as being callous.

If you have decided that an hour and a half is not an acceptable time - you might enlighten us as to how long is an acceptable time. Unless you think everyone City town and village require a 24/7 cath lab.

Its generally accepted the 1st hour is vital post heart attack/stroke

You must scedule your heart attck/stroke for between 9am and 5pm momday to friday in waterford seems to be goverent message along with some mumerings of personal respomsiblity :rolleyes:

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 3:03pm

karlitob wrote: »

I refute, and find offensive, any impugning of my character as being callous. Watch your tongue.

There is only evidence based practice. If you think that consultant cardiologists should be paid more in Waterford just because the people of Waterford want something that they have no more entitlement to that any other citizen of this country, then there’s not much I can do to change that opinion - nor does it appear to stop you playing the man rather than the ball.

What would stop letterkenny demanding that mental health consultants should be paid more to go there, or GPs be paid more to go to Cahirciveen.

10,000 people die of a heart attack every year. 7000 have a stroke. The interventions and treatments to prevent are far cheaper and more effective to what you are demanding. Those interventions also have a similarly high effect on other conditions - such as mental health issues. Whereas a stent only works on one part of one organ.

Citizens have rights as well as responsibilities. Those responsibilities include caring for your own health, as well as paying for that service. Who’s taxes should we increase and to how much. Everyone wants better services but no one describes who will pay for it.

If you have decided that an hour and a half is not an acceptable time - you might enlighten us as to how long is an acceptable time. Unless you think everyone City town and village require a 24/7 cath lab.

Yeah so Leterkenny should be also better resourced along with most regions and areas, its not a zero sum game.

I refute your claims that I am impinging on your character, I in fact request you to withdraw this accusation or I will be forced to challenge you to a duel.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 3:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its generally accepted the 1st hour is vital post heart attack/stroke

You must scedule your heart attck/stroke for between 9am and 5pm momday to friday in waterford seems to be goverent message along with some mumerings of personal respomsiblity :rolleyes:

Ah the ‘generally accepted’ argument. What about all those people who are 65 minutes away from Waterford hospital. What are they to do now that you’ve decided that they’re not entitled to a service closer to home? Where’s your ‘every minute counts’ argument now?

Must be nice not having personal responsibility for your own health! It’s almost like no body in ireland was responsible throughout the Covid lockdown.

Regardless, you’ve yet to answer the three main questions
- how will you provide a safe service when there is insufficient numbers of interventions after core hours to ensure competent medical staff.
- How much tax and who will pay for all of these services.
- why do cardiac services outweigh other services for other people throughout the country. How is this a priority over mental health services.

Or is it more murmurings about ‘government this, government that’

karlitob · 28-06-2020 3:09pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

Yeah so Leterkenny should be also better resourced along with most regions and areas, its not a zero sum game.

I refute your claims that I am impinging on your character, I in fact request you to withdraw this accusation or I will be forced to challenge you to a duel.

Ah - one of the less read persons. I said impugn, not impinge.

Not a zero sum game? Seems like you can’t do sums at all. How much will it cost and who will pay?

Hard questions aren’t they! It’s almost like you’d have to make hard and thankless decisions such a ministers and DoH have to make.

Otherwise, you’d have to believe that senior decision makers are ‘callous’ and just don’t want to provide the service for some sort of personal vendetta against Waterford (sorry about the other big word).

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 3:12pm

karlitob wrote: »

Ah the ‘generally accepted’ argument. What about all those people who are 65 minutes away from Waterford hospital. What are they to do now that you’ve decided that they’re not entitled to a service closer to home? Where’s your ‘every minute counts’ argument now?

Must be nice not having personal responsibility for your own health! It’s almost like no body in ireland was responsible throughout the Covid lockdown.

Regardless, you’ve yet to answer the three main questions
- how will you provide a safe service when there is insufficient numbers of interventions after core hours to ensure competent medical staff.
- How much tax and who will pay for all of these services.
- why do cardiac services outweigh other services for other people throughout the country. How is this a priority over mental health services.

Or is it more murmurings about ‘government this, government that’

If they're 65 minutes and the limit then they are 5 minutes outside the zone and services need to be provided so they're in the 60 minutes. I don't think theres any crime in having more coverage than what is the absolute baseline. Cutting a lot of the admin staff for starters, we have 4 times the amount of admin staff in the hse than nhs and they think they have far too many.

Its not a priority over mental health, they should be both be adequately resourced, which they aren't.

It should be resourced properly because it is either the biggest or second biggest killer for a long time now, competing with cancer, which should also be better resourced.

JimWinters · 28-06-2020 3:15pm

My understanding is that UHW has lost cardiologists due to the hospital group moving cases to Cork to increase numbers to justify expansion. Those cardiologists would gladly return from Dublin if UHW was treated fairly.

With regards to the 90 minute window, I’m sure you’ll agree that it is best practice to have an intervention within 90mins of the cardiac event? That’s simply not possible from many parts of Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford and Kilkenny. A patient cannot even be transported from UHW to UHC in 90 minutes.

This is a regional issue, not just a Waterford one. Waterford Regional Hospital, as it was, provided services to 500,000 people. No other region or Cath Lab operates on a part time basis. The downgrade of Waterford as a regional hospital has been politically motivated. The Cath Lab in Waterford even with all of the under-resourcing and limited opening hours consistently outperforms other units in the country in terms f case load.

There is an enormously strong, evidence based case for expanding the operating hours to 24/7 and adding the second lab and cardiologists are in favour of the move and willing to return to Waterford...

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 3:17pm

karlitob wrote: »

Ah - one of the less read persons. I said impugn, not impinge.

Oh the shame!

JimWinters · 28-06-2020 3:28pm

karlitob wrote: »

- how will you provide a safe service when there is insufficient numbers of interventions after core hours to ensure competent medical staff.
- How much tax and who will pay for all of these services.
- why do cardiac services outweigh other services for other people throughout the country. How is this a priority over mental health services.

There are sufficient numbers if the hospitals in the region referred their out of hours patients to UHW, many now go to either Dublin or Cork’s overcrowded facilities while UHW’s Cath Lab is closer but closed.

It’s not that expensive on the grand scheme of things. In fact it would cost less to run 24/7 for a year in UHW than the govt committed to RTE’s comic relief on Friday night. That didn’t take a number of years and flawed reports to approve though...

In Dublin there are 20 Cath Labs, 1 per 100,000 people in the greater Dublin area. There is 1 part time Cath Lab per 500,000 people in the southeast. Why do cardiac services in Dublin outweigh this region?

karlitob · 28-06-2020 3:32pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most if not all of waterford past dungarvan is closer to cork?

Nowhere did i say anything close to.this,but whatever

Ah yes....there it is....the nub of arguement....not allovwed say anything againesr government despite both ff and fg promising cat labs to here

Whats next for downgrade after ardkeen....the M9 or WIT,maybe even repeal the city status???

Again, there is no ‘downgrade’ of ardkeen. It’s tin hat stuff to think that not getting an unsafe service is a downgrade.

And more inferiority complex. Not getting university status is not a personal attack on Waterford.

road_high · 28-06-2020 3:35pm

This cork centric government is bad for the south east - just by default resources and development will get priority for cork hospitals, airport, port and infrastructure. Meaning far less of the crumbs for anyone else.
The airport development in particular looks vulnerable as cork airport has long struggled for passengers even pre Covid.

JimWinters · 28-06-2020 3:38pm

karlitob wrote: »

Again, there is no ‘downgrade’ of ardkeen. It’s tin hat stuff to think that not getting an unsafe service is a downgrade.

So the hospital be changed from being the regional hospital to being part of the South/Southwest hospital group along with the complete loss of autonomy and budget that went with it wasn’t a downgrade? UHW has lost funding, services, staff and beds since the change

karlitob · 28-06-2020 4:10pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

If they're 65 minutes and the limit then they are 5 minutes outside the zone and services need to be provided so they're in the 60 minutes. I don't think theres any crime in having more coverage than what is the absolute baseline. Cutting a lot of the admin staff for starters, we have 4 times the amount of admin staff in the hse than nhs and they think they have far too many.

Its not a priority over mental health, they should be both be adequately resourced, which they aren't.

It should be resourced properly because it is either the biggest or second biggest killer for a long time now, competing with cancer, which should also be better resourced.

Ah - that old chestnut. Where’s that data snd which staff would you cut? Consultant secretaries? Ward clerks? Outpatient administration managers?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/nhs-managers

Yeah - everything should be properly resourced. But back on planet earth - which should be prioritised, how much will it cost and who will pay for it?

I’m surprised you’re not calling for a Reintroduction of cancer services in Waterford. Ireland has had significantly improving rates of cancer diagnosis and surgical and outcomes after the introduction of centres of excellence. Which Waterford didn’t want. Do you want to go back to higher cancer rates so that you can have w local service

Big Bag of Chips · 28-06-2020 4:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Im lead to belive,that the consultant cardilogist in ardkeen had a heart attack late 2019 early 2020 and whitfield has been covering since??
?

You're led to believe wrong.

As for the mobile cath lab, I'm not 100% but I know from late last year (pre any Covid) it was scheduled for a planned closure for essential maintenance and upgrades.

Don't always believe everything you are "led to believe". It's usually spread by people who don't really know and are exaggerating the actual facts or down right making something up.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 4:15pm

JimWinters wrote: »

So the hospital be changed from being the regional hospital to being part of the South/Southwest hospital group along with the complete loss of autonomy and budget that went with it wasn’t a downgrade? UHW has lost funding, services, staff and beds since the change

It’s still a regional hospital.

UHW is a constituent hospital of the Group. A joint seat at the table with the other hospitals in the group to ensure standardisation of care.

Pleas provide evidence of lost funding, lost services, lost staff and lost beds since 2013.

This fascination of autonomy. Do you think a public service paid by the tax payer can have full autonomy and do what they want? Who will hold them accountable? Should UHW decide what services they wish to deliver and not follow government policy as set out by the DoH. You do know it’s the hospitals job to carry our government to policy. Where will UHW get money to deliver whatever service they wish in their fulfilment of their autonomy.

Next year will see the reintroduction of the regional health authority. If you don’t like the groups, you won’t like this. But thankfully your opinion isn’t needed.

lertsnim · 28-06-2020 4:20pm

Mary Butler won't be seen again after yesterday so I don't see the government doing anything worthwhile for our county.

E38E3E38E3EE33 · 28-06-2020 4:38pm

For those that think there won't be hostility towards the South East:

"Separately Cork Airport said it did not believe there was a viable case for a proposed increase in the subvention to Waterford Airport given it had not operated any commercial flight for several years."

From this article of May 2020

We're screwed

JimWinters · 28-06-2020 4:40pm

karlitob wrote: »

It’s still a regional hospital.

UHW is a constituent hospital of the Group. A joint seat at the table with the other hospitals in the group to ensure standardisation of care.

Pleas provide evidence of lost funding, lost services, lost staff and lost beds since 2013.

This fascination of autonomy. Do you think a public service paid by the tax payer can have full autonomy and do what they want? Who will hold them accountable? Should UHW decide what services they wish to deliver and not follow government policy as set out by the DoH. You do know it’s the hospitals job to carry our government to policy. Where will UHW get money to deliver whatever service they wish in their fulfilment of their autonomy.

Next year will see the reintroduction of the regional health authority. If you don’t like the groups, you won’t like this. But thankfully your opinion isn’t needed.

It’s not a joint seat at the table, they are not equal partners. The South/Southwest hospital group decides on funding and priorities for UHW, it has overseen a significant reduction in standards, cleanliness and services while Cork’s lot has improved. The regional health authority is another disaster in the offing, do you think they are a positive step?

One example of services moving to Cork, we both know it won’t return: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/waterford-hospital-not-to-accept-new-urology-referrals-for-six-months-1.4181157

There are others but I cannot put my hand on them at the minute.

Also, I cannot find the stats on staff number reductions which I have seen somewhere before. You can see the effects of it in this article in the News & Star last year: https://waterford-news.ie/2019/12/09/the-most-understaffed-hospital-in-the-country/#.Xvi28iXTWEc

UHW has a staff to bed ratio of 3.57 while CUH is 4.98, that’s a massive difference.

You seem to have a good knowledge in the area, if you don’t mind me asking, do you work in the hospital group?

28-06-2020 4:42pm

JimWinters wrote: »

It’s not a joint seat at the table, they are not equal partners. The South/Southwest hospital group decides on funding and priorities for UHW, it has overseen a significant reduction in standards, cleanliness and services while Cork’s lot has improved. The regional health authority is another disaster in the offing, do you think they are a positive step?

One example of services moving to Cork, we both know it won’t return: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/waterford-hospital-not-to-accept-new-urology-referrals-for-six-months-1.4181157

There are others but I cannot put my hand on them at the minute.

Also, I cannot find the stats on staff number reductions which I have seen somewhere before. You can see the effects of it in this article in the News & Star last year: https://waterford-news.ie/2019/12/09/the-most-understaffed-hospital-in-the-country/#.Xvi28iXTWEc

UHW has a staff to bed ratio of 3.57 while CUH is 4.98, that’s a massive difference.

You seem to have a good knowledge in the area, if you don’t mind me asking, do you work in the hospital group?

They just doing same as CIE with the trains,running it into the ground.to justify further downgrading/potential.closing

This is known as "strave the beast" type funding

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 5:10pm

karlitob wrote: »

Ah - that old chestnut. Where’s that data snd which staff would you cut? Consultant secretaries? Ward clerks? Outpatient administration managers?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/nhs-managers

Yeah - everything should be properly resourced. But back on planet earth - which should be prioritised, how much will it cost and who will pay for it?

I’m surprised you’re not calling for a Reintroduction of cancer services in Waterford. Ireland has had significantly improving rates of cancer diagnosis and surgical and outcomes after the introduction of centres of excellence. Which Waterford didn’t want. Do you want to go back to higher cancer rates so that you can have w local service

Do you just sue the same phrase over and over again? So every other health service can get by with far far far far less admins than we do.... yet we definitely can't cut any seems to be what you're saying? When did I say that the UK had too many admin staff, i think it funny that the NHS can and does manage with a fraction of admin staff than the hse does. This is a good indication of where our priorities lie https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/hse-hires-3-times-more-office-staff-than-nurses-468746.html

Can you stick with the topic that was discussed as per the cardiac care and address those issues before brining in another bag of worms. I'd like to see you address the other arguments by me or anyone else...

alta stare · 28-06-2020 5:21pm

E38E3E38E3EE33 wrote: »

For those that think there won't be hostility towards the South East:

"Separately Cork Airport said it did not believe there was a viable case for a proposed increase in the subvention to Waterford Airport given it had not operated any commercial flight for several years."

From this article of May 2020

We're screwed

But why do we even need an airport in Waterford.....we dont.

Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipp have no airport to speak yet they are doing ok. Why do some Waterford people obsess with the idea of us having an airport. We dont need an airport and that has been proven time and time again.

Even when the airport was operational it was too expensive to fly out of. I remember looking to book a flight to London from our airport and the cost was too high for a return flight. Travelling to and flying out of Dublin was cheaper than flying out of our own airport.

Dum_Dum · 28-06-2020 5:33pm

Another thing they'll go for is tolling the M9. They're bitter about it.

barneystinson · 28-06-2020 5:35pm

karlitob wrote: »

You’re being silly now. The health budget has increased year on year for decades. Services don’t close - they change where they are provided. There’s no removal of services in Waterford as far as I’m aware. Not getting a second lab is not the same as a downgrade. Unless you have an inferiority complex.

It's shocking to see someone with such a sesquipedalian way of posting (and who is so happy to lower themselves to impugning others' posting based on minor errors), display such a glaring gap in their knowledge...

You keep saying "inferiority complex" but the context you're using it in makes it pretty clear you actually mean "persecution complex"... :pac:

I'm putting it down to your superiority complex. :rolleyes:

E38E3E38E3EE33 · 28-06-2020 5:35pm

alta stare wrote: »

But why do we even need an airport in Waterford.....we dont.

Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipp have no airport to speak yet they are doing ok. Why do some Waterford people obsess with the idea of us having an airport. We dont need an airport and that has been proven time and time again.

Even when the airport was operational it was too expensive to fly out of. I remember looking to book a flight to London from our airport and the cost was too high for a return flight. Travelling to and flying out of Dublin was cheaper than flying out of our own airport.

Really bad troll attempt.

Stop being poor.

alta stare · 28-06-2020 6:01pm

E38E3E38E3EE33 wrote: »

Really bad troll attempt.

Stop being poor.

Good one. You must of used up your bullsh!t qouta today if that is all you got

alta stare · 28-06-2020 6:20pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Another thing they'll go for is tolling the M9. They're bitter about it.

Why would they toll the M9?

road_high · 28-06-2020 7:36pm

alta stare wrote: »

But why do we even need an airport in Waterford.....we dont.

Wexford, Kilkenny, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipp have no airport to speak yet they are doing ok. Why do some Waterford people obsess with the idea of us having an airport. We dont need an airport and that has been proven time and time again.

Even when the airport was operational it was too expensive to fly out of. I remember looking to book a flight to London from our airport and the cost was too high for a return flight. Travelling to and flying out of Dublin was cheaper than flying out of our own airport.

Precisely to increase and support access to those counties!
Fair enough Dublin for me is accessible but Waterford airport is nearer and would bring many obvious benefits. Sadly I think Covid has buried it for another while. Unless things majorly change and that threat goes away

road_high · 28-06-2020 7:38pm

alta stare wrote: »

Why would they toll the M9?

To raise revenues and cover it up as a “green” tax.

alta stare · 28-06-2020 8:01pm

road_high wrote: »

Precisely to increase and support access to those counties!
Fair enough Dublin for me is accessible but Waterford airport is nearer and would bring many obvious benefits. Sadly I think Covid has buried it for another while. Unless things majorly change and that threat goes away

An airport in Waterford is not viable hence why the idea of one never really got anywhere. It takes an hour and twenty to get from Waterford City to Dublin Airport. Less from Kilkenny and Wexford. No way an airport will ever be successful here.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 8:01pm

JimWinters wrote: »

It’s not a joint seat at the table, they are not equal partners. The South/Southwest hospital group decides on funding and priorities for UHW, it has overseen a significant reduction in standards, cleanliness and services while Cork’s lot has improved. The regional health authority is another disaster in the offing, do you think they are a positive step?

One example of services moving to Cork, we both know it won’t return: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/waterford-hospital-not-to-accept-new-urology-referrals-for-six-months-1.4181157

There are others but I cannot put my hand on them at the minute.

Also, I cannot find the stats on staff number reductions which I have seen somewhere before. You can see the effects of it in this article in the News & Star last year: https://waterford-news.ie/2019/12/09/the-most-understaffed-hospital-in-the-country/#.Xvi28iXTWEc

UHW has a staff to bed ratio of 3.57 while CUH is 4.98, that’s a massive difference.

You seem to have a good knowledge in the area, if you don’t mind me asking, do you work in the hospital group?

No I don’t work in the HG.

You can’t compare staff to bed ratios as there is a wide variety of services, expertises and clinical/non-clinical staff. Cork is the only hospital in the country with every speciality. It has always been a regional hospital. Waterford is a general hospital. They don’t have the same services.

Is there discrepancies across the country - of course there is. UHL have a quarter less docs and half the number of HSCPs pro rata when compared to Beaumont, for the same catchment area as Beaumont and quarter less the beds. But Beaumont have twice the average length of stay. I can sing you a song from every hospital in every part of the country. The answer is that we need a national response to health which means a strategic plan of what services and what staff should go where, based on a finite budget. Someone is gonna ‘lose out’ as they see it. They can ‘fight’ for local services but the HSE has to provide a national service and that is extremely challenging as I hope you would agree. Especially with competing interests, single issue agendas and political interference. All with the continuing problem that people won’t pay more for services or accept that some services will move and will be better for it.
I made comment earlier on cancer centres of excellence. Where’s all the noise now? So many lives have been saved. Does Waterford want a service back that cannot provide the same outcomes for its citizens.

I don’t know what is happening with no new urology referrals. It appears as simple as getting through the backlog. But I do know that there’s no one in a room plotting to downgrade a hospital. Can I ask - why do you think they want to downgrade the hospital? What is the nefarious reason?

The RHA will be a positive step. It’s essentially back to the Integrated Service Area of Prof Drumm era in 2008 which was abandoned because the docs wanted the hospital groupings to align with the universities. News flash - not all clinical staff are angels. Some are out for themselves.

UHW is a constituent hopsital of the group. The group is tasked with implementing the service plan as laid out by government ie gov policy. No group - or hospital - or any public service really has the control over finances and services that you think.

Sure wasn’t the group lead front and centre with Waterford colleagues, and others, on the first report on cardiac services. Doesn’t sound like an attempt to downgrade the service. Seems like your argument is gone with that point.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/top-consultants-reject-south-east-cardiac-services-report-35061854.html

How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?

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