How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?

Dum_Dum · 28-06-2020 10:38am #1

Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?

While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.

I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.

Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?

StringerBell · 28-06-2020 10:55am

I'd expect it will be business as usual, with some moves toward trying to win votes later in the term.

Harry Palmr · 28-06-2020 12:19pm

Thread merge with the GE?

Hostility would suggest they knew we were here.

alta stare · 28-06-2020 12:29pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?

While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.

I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.

Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?

Why would they even dream of downgrading the M9...what purpose would that serve?

I cant see them touching WIT.... downgrading or upgrading.

Waterford Airport is dead and buried anyway. It was never going to take off (pun intended)

As for the government being hostile to Waterford.....do you not think you are being a little bit dramatic with that kind of wording?

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 1:27pm

Waterford Town will get a fourth mosque.

Harry Palmr · 28-06-2020 1:30pm

Where are the other three?

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 1:33pm

Waterford
Waterford Mosque, 1 Viewmount, Waterford
TAWHEED CENTER ,47 MERCHANTS QUAY, WATERFORD, X91 T2CR
AL-MUNIR ISLAMIC CENTRE, UNIT 10A, PARK ROAD BUSINESS PARK, PARK ROAD, WATERFORD, X91 NV32

karlitob · 28-06-2020 1:33pm

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Is the best case the passive indifference exhibited by previous governments or will this government be actively hostile?

While I don't think they'll downgrade the M9 to a HQDC or downgrade the status of WIT, I can see them actively agitating for the complete closure of the Airport. I can easily see progressively more shipping diverted from Waterford to Cork/Ringaskiddy.

I'm not sure about the Hospital - can it be downgraded further? Now the second-cath lab has been delayed is that an opportunity to instigate further 'reviews'.

Maybe instead of these headline grabbers it will be death by a thousands cuts?

Not as hostile as Waterford is to everyone else.

For some reason, notions of having a university in a small city, in a small country, and two cath-labs that are not required.

It’s either a massive inferiority complex or a massive superiority complex. I can’t figure it out.

Zaph · 28-06-2020 1:39pm

Given that they've only just been appointed I'd say give them a chance to do something first before giving out about them. But more importantly, why would any government be hostile to anywhere in the country? They may not treat somewhere with the same level of importance that the locals feel they merit, but that's not the same as being hostile. The persecution complex displayed in the OP is quite staggering.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 1:40pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can see them clamping down hard and cutting the town off from state funding as a punishment for voting SF

No universaity is a definite.further downgrade of ardkeen to continue

Id be suprised if half of the proposed infrasrructure geos ahead,they hate waterford in dublin at best of times anyway

What downgrade are you talking about? What policy decision are you referencing? Irish people have a fascination of having a full complement of health services on their doorstep - which are inherently unsafe.

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 1:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I can see them clamping down hard and cutting the town off from state funding as a punishment for voting SF

No universaity is a definite.further downgrade of ardkeen to continue

Id be suprised if half of the proposed infrasrructure geos ahead,they hate waterford in dublin at best of times anyway

Maybe, I could see it being the first time in my lifetime that Fiana Fail will not return a td for Waterford. Mary Butler got quite a few votes from West Waterford, they'll be more likely to vote for an actual West Waterford candidate next time. If she doesn't deliver 24/7 cardiac care which is the minimum for anyone in the East of the county and she loses votes to a West Waterford candidate I don't see her getting in. She already dropped nearly 4k of first preference votes from 2016 to 2020.

All hypotheticals of course

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 1:49pm

karlitob wrote: »

What downgrade are you talking about? What policy decision are you referencing? Irish people have a fascination of having a full complement of health services on their doorstep - which are inherently unsafe.

Youre saying the not being able to deal with heart attacks outside of 9 to 5 monday to friday is safe? You can read a bit more about how common it is here: https://ihda.ie/

Edit: the thing imr eferencong ehre is: "Heart Disease is the world’s biggest killer. 1 in 4 people will die from heart disease or stroke." that might be hypebole or exaggerated but it is consistently one of the biggest killers worldwide.

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 1:55pm

White bread causes heart disease, time to ban the blaa.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 2:14pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

Youre saying the not being able to deal with heart attacks outside of 9 to 5 monday to friday is safe? You can read a bit more about how common it is here: https://ihda.ie/

Edit: the thing imr eferencong ehre is: "Heart Disease is the world’s biggest killer. 1 in 4 people will die from heart disease or stroke." that might be hypebole or exaggerated but it is consistently one of the biggest killers worldwide.

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.

I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.

The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.

But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 2:16pm

There are insufficient numbers of students in Wateford getting over 450 points in the LC but that's no stopping everyone demanding a university.

[Deleted User] · 28-06-2020 2:17pm

karlitob wrote: »

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.

I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.

The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.

But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.

Is it true.....waterford has at present no consultant cardilogist and the hospiteal at whitfield is covering for them

Are we to honestly believe that we will have a 2nd cath lab inside 4.and half years??

They are going to slash budget for ardkeen and then claim its unfit for purpose to justify closing it.....its what they do to everything here and will likely do it more so as punishment for having no ffg representive from the city

vriesmays · 28-06-2020 2:19pm

They'll turn Ardkeen into another homeless shelter like with St John's College.

Big Bag of Chips · 28-06-2020 2:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it true.....waterford has at present no consultant cardilogist and the hospiteal at whitfield is covering for them

No. That's not true. UHW has 3 full time consultant cardiologist plus a locum. Whitfield has been "covering for" the whole hospital recently with some procedures being moved out there during Covid to reduce footfall to the hospital that was actually dealing with Covid cases. But it was the UHW consultants going out to Whitfield to perform the procedures.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 2:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it true.....waterford has at present no consultant cardilogist and the hospiteal at whitfield is covering for them

Are we to honestly believe that we will have a 2nd cath lab inside 4.and half years??

They are going to slash budget for ardkeen and then claim its unfit for purpose to justify closing it.....its what they do to everything here and will likely do it more so as punishment for having no ffg representive from the city

You’re being silly now. The health budget has increased year on year for decades. Services don’t close - they change where they are provided. There’s no removal of services in Waterford as far as I’m aware. Not getting a second lab is not the same as a downgrade. Unless you have an inferiority complex.

[Deleted User] · 28-06-2020 2:35pm

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

No. That's not true. UHW has 3 full time consultant cardiologist plus a locum. Whitfield has been "covering for" the whole hospital recently with some procedures being moved out there during Covid to reduce footfall to the hospital that was actually dealing with Covid cases. But it was the UHW consultants going out to Whitfield to perform the procedures.

Im lead to belive,that the consultant cardilogist in ardkeen had a heart attack late 2019 early 2020 and whitfield has been covering since??

Is it true the mobile cat lab was taken away during coronavirus?

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 2:39pm

karlitob wrote: »

That’s exactly what I’m saying. There are insufficient numbers of people requiring a stent outside of cores hours so that it would be staffed safely by competent doctors who have sufficient numbers of procedures to ensure continuing competence. This has already been highlighted, presented to government, presented to the Dail. There is currently a group set up by DoH that will likely approve the extra lab (a mobile unit). This is a political decision to satiate Waterford people and the outgoing looney TD Halligan. Regardless no cardiologist will apply for a job there.

I recognise your focus on heart disease and stroke. If you really cared about the lives of your fellow Waterford citizens you would be demanding more investment in healthy ireland and personal responsibility from your fellow citizens.

The main causes of heart disease and stroke is inactivity, smoking, drinking, Overweight, poor diet etc. The treatment for heart disease is not to wait until someone is seriously ill but to prevent it by increasing activity, Reducing obesity, improving diet, reducing stress etc etc.

But that’s hard to do - it’s much easier to have a cath lab and pretend like it’s a key determinant to health. Besides cork is available outside of hours - as it’s always been.

An hour and half is not an acceptable time if you have a heart attack and thats door to door. You die or have worse outcomes given every minute. I agree with all the points about exercise etc. and think we could do a lot more with initiatives in exercise, eating, cooking and education etc. The sad fact is that it will not reach many people and there are plenty of heart and stroke problems that have very little to do with diet and lifestyle. Ill hold off on going around with a placard deamding people exercise more for now.

I just think that dealing with regularly occurring life threatening and life altering scenarios should be better resourced. If it takes more money to draw cardiologists here then thats what it takes, Waterford and the South East has set a clear priority on this for expenditure. It would be like if someone rang a suicide hotline and if they're from Waterford they have a waiting time of half an hour whereas someone from Dublin gets straight through to someone who can help them.

I really do get the whole thing about personal responsibility but I don't think someone should die for it or be in a wheelchair, especially when this personal responsibility only matters if you live in the South East or areas like Sligo. Also the financial costs of ensuring theres actual cardiac care is far outweighed by the cost of rehabilitation etc. when there are much worse outcomes for patietns depending on time

The fact of the matter is that you will be affected by this and you will know more than one person who will have a heart attack and I dont know how you can be so callous when it will affect so much of the population, if it was 1 in 20 or something I could understand concentration of resources but for something that affects around 1 in 4 and is pretty regular....

karlitob · 28-06-2020 2:52pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

An hour and half is not an acceptable time if you have a heart attack and thats door to door. You die or have worse outcomes given every minute. I agree with all the points about exercise etc. and think we could do a lot more with initiatives in exercise, eating, cooking and education etc. The sad fact is that it will not reach many people and there are plenty of heart and stroke problems that have very little to do with diet and lifestyle. Ill hold off on going around with a placard deamding people exercise more for now.

I just think that dealing with regularly occurring life threatening and life altering scenarios should be better resourced. If it takes more money to draw cardiologists here then thats what it takes, Waterford and the South East has set a clear priority on this for expenditure. It would be like if someone rang a suicide hotline and if they're from Waterford they have a waiting time of half an hour whereas someone from Dublin gets straight through to someone who can help them.

I really do get the whole thing about personal responsibility but I don't think someone should die for it or be in a wheelchair, especially when this personal responsibility only matters if you live in the South East or areas like Sligo. Also the financial costs of ensuring theres actual cardiac care is far outweighed by the cost of rehabilitation etc. when there are much worse outcomes for patietns depending on time

The fact of the matter is that you will be affected by this and you will know more than one person who will have a heart attack and I dont know how you can be so callous when it will affect so much of the population, if it was 1 in 20 or something I could understand concentration of resources but for something that affects around 1 in 4 and is pretty regular....

I refute, and find offensive, any impugning of my character as being callous. Watch your tongue.

There is only evidence based practice. If you think that consultant cardiologists should be paid more in Waterford just because the people of Waterford want something that they have no more entitlement to that any other citizen of this country, then there’s not much I can do to change that opinion - nor does it appear to stop you playing the man rather than the ball.

What would stop letterkenny demanding that mental health consultants should be paid more to go there, or GPs be paid more to go to Cahirciveen.

10,000 people die of a heart attack every year. 7000 have a stroke. The interventions and treatments to prevent are far cheaper and more effective to what you are demanding. Those interventions also have a similarly high effect on other conditions - such as mental health issues. Whereas a stent only works on one part of one organ.

Citizens have rights as well as responsibilities. Those responsibilities include caring for your own health, as well as paying for that service. Who’s taxes should we increase and to how much. Everyone wants better services but no one describes who will pay for it.

If you have decided that an hour and a half is not an acceptable time - you might enlighten us as to how long is an acceptable time. Unless you think everyone City town and village require a 24/7 cath lab.

[Deleted User] · 28-06-2020 2:57pm

karlitob wrote: »

I refute, and find offensive, any impugning of my character as being callous.

If you have decided that an hour and a half is not an acceptable time - you might enlighten us as to how long is an acceptable time. Unless you think everyone City town and village require a 24/7 cath lab.

Its generally accepted the 1st hour is vital post heart attack/stroke

You must scedule your heart attck/stroke for between 9am and 5pm momday to friday in waterford seems to be goverent message along with some mumerings of personal respomsiblity :rolleyes:

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 3:03pm

karlitob wrote: »

I refute, and find offensive, any impugning of my character as being callous. Watch your tongue.

There is only evidence based practice. If you think that consultant cardiologists should be paid more in Waterford just because the people of Waterford want something that they have no more entitlement to that any other citizen of this country, then there’s not much I can do to change that opinion - nor does it appear to stop you playing the man rather than the ball.

What would stop letterkenny demanding that mental health consultants should be paid more to go there, or GPs be paid more to go to Cahirciveen.

10,000 people die of a heart attack every year. 7000 have a stroke. The interventions and treatments to prevent are far cheaper and more effective to what you are demanding. Those interventions also have a similarly high effect on other conditions - such as mental health issues. Whereas a stent only works on one part of one organ.

Citizens have rights as well as responsibilities. Those responsibilities include caring for your own health, as well as paying for that service. Who’s taxes should we increase and to how much. Everyone wants better services but no one describes who will pay for it.

If you have decided that an hour and a half is not an acceptable time - you might enlighten us as to how long is an acceptable time. Unless you think everyone City town and village require a 24/7 cath lab.

Yeah so Leterkenny should be also better resourced along with most regions and areas, its not a zero sum game.

I refute your claims that I am impinging on your character, I in fact request you to withdraw this accusation or I will be forced to challenge you to a duel.

karlitob · 28-06-2020 3:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its generally accepted the 1st hour is vital post heart attack/stroke

You must scedule your heart attck/stroke for between 9am and 5pm momday to friday in waterford seems to be goverent message along with some mumerings of personal respomsiblity :rolleyes:

Ah the ‘generally accepted’ argument. What about all those people who are 65 minutes away from Waterford hospital. What are they to do now that you’ve decided that they’re not entitled to a service closer to home? Where’s your ‘every minute counts’ argument now?

Must be nice not having personal responsibility for your own health! It’s almost like no body in ireland was responsible throughout the Covid lockdown.

Regardless, you’ve yet to answer the three main questions
- how will you provide a safe service when there is insufficient numbers of interventions after core hours to ensure competent medical staff.
- How much tax and who will pay for all of these services.
- why do cardiac services outweigh other services for other people throughout the country. How is this a priority over mental health services.

Or is it more murmurings about ‘government this, government that’

karlitob · 28-06-2020 3:09pm

spaceCreated wrote: »

Yeah so Leterkenny should be also better resourced along with most regions and areas, its not a zero sum game.

I refute your claims that I am impinging on your character, I in fact request you to withdraw this accusation or I will be forced to challenge you to a duel.

Ah - one of the less read persons. I said impugn, not impinge.

Not a zero sum game? Seems like you can’t do sums at all. How much will it cost and who will pay?

Hard questions aren’t they! It’s almost like you’d have to make hard and thankless decisions such a ministers and DoH have to make.

Otherwise, you’d have to believe that senior decision makers are ‘callous’ and just don’t want to provide the service for some sort of personal vendetta against Waterford (sorry about the other big word).

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 3:12pm

karlitob wrote: »

Ah the ‘generally accepted’ argument. What about all those people who are 65 minutes away from Waterford hospital. What are they to do now that you’ve decided that they’re not entitled to a service closer to home? Where’s your ‘every minute counts’ argument now?

Must be nice not having personal responsibility for your own health! It’s almost like no body in ireland was responsible throughout the Covid lockdown.

Regardless, you’ve yet to answer the three main questions
- how will you provide a safe service when there is insufficient numbers of interventions after core hours to ensure competent medical staff.
- How much tax and who will pay for all of these services.
- why do cardiac services outweigh other services for other people throughout the country. How is this a priority over mental health services.

Or is it more murmurings about ‘government this, government that’

If they're 65 minutes and the limit then they are 5 minutes outside the zone and services need to be provided so they're in the 60 minutes. I don't think theres any crime in having more coverage than what is the absolute baseline. Cutting a lot of the admin staff for starters, we have 4 times the amount of admin staff in the hse than nhs and they think they have far too many.

Its not a priority over mental health, they should be both be adequately resourced, which they aren't.

It should be resourced properly because it is either the biggest or second biggest killer for a long time now, competing with cancer, which should also be better resourced.

JimWinters · 28-06-2020 3:15pm

My understanding is that UHW has lost cardiologists due to the hospital group moving cases to Cork to increase numbers to justify expansion. Those cardiologists would gladly return from Dublin if UHW was treated fairly.

With regards to the 90 minute window, I’m sure you’ll agree that it is best practice to have an intervention within 90mins of the cardiac event? That’s simply not possible from many parts of Waterford, Tipperary, Wexford and Kilkenny. A patient cannot even be transported from UHW to UHC in 90 minutes.

This is a regional issue, not just a Waterford one. Waterford Regional Hospital, as it was, provided services to 500,000 people. No other region or Cath Lab operates on a part time basis. The downgrade of Waterford as a regional hospital has been politically motivated. The Cath Lab in Waterford even with all of the under-resourcing and limited opening hours consistently outperforms other units in the country in terms f case load.

There is an enormously strong, evidence based case for expanding the operating hours to 24/7 and adding the second lab and cardiologists are in favour of the move and willing to return to Waterford...

spaceCreated · 28-06-2020 3:17pm

karlitob wrote: »

Ah - one of the less read persons. I said impugn, not impinge.

Oh the shame!

JimWinters · 28-06-2020 3:28pm

karlitob wrote: »

- how will you provide a safe service when there is insufficient numbers of interventions after core hours to ensure competent medical staff.
- How much tax and who will pay for all of these services.
- why do cardiac services outweigh other services for other people throughout the country. How is this a priority over mental health services.

There are sufficient numbers if the hospitals in the region referred their out of hours patients to UHW, many now go to either Dublin or Cork’s overcrowded facilities while UHW’s Cath Lab is closer but closed.

It’s not that expensive on the grand scheme of things. In fact it would cost less to run 24/7 for a year in UHW than the govt committed to RTE’s comic relief on Friday night. That didn’t take a number of years and flawed reports to approve though...

In Dublin there are 20 Cath Labs, 1 per 100,000 people in the greater Dublin area. There is 1 part time Cath Lab per 500,000 people in the southeast. Why do cardiac services in Dublin outweigh this region?

karlitob · 28-06-2020 3:32pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most if not all of waterford past dungarvan is closer to cork?

Nowhere did i say anything close to.this,but whatever

Ah yes....there it is....the nub of arguement....not allovwed say anything againesr government despite both ff and fg promising cat labs to here

Whats next for downgrade after ardkeen....the M9 or WIT,maybe even repeal the city status???

Again, there is no ‘downgrade’ of ardkeen. It’s tin hat stuff to think that not getting an unsafe service is a downgrade.

And more inferiority complex. Not getting university status is not a personal attack on Waterford.

How hostile will the new government be for Waterford?

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