Keeping a crossbred stock bull

Neo Sanders wrote: »

I'm thinking of keeping one of my own calves on as a bull to breed future replacement heifirs.

He's by ai bull curaheen gunshot. He's polled, a twin, very docile, 5 star replacement. His ma and grandma tick all the boxes.

The red one in the pictures attached.

Any opinions?

pic is there now

minerleague wrote: »

calves from "speakeasy" ( term used round here !) wont be consistent like pedigree . dunno if its hybrid vigour but you could end up with monsters or poor calves

Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about calving, but I plan using on mature cows

Say my name wrote: »

I'd have no issue with being crossbred.

But why would you want to be using a twin as a sire?
Surely twins in bovine genetics are more trouble than it's worth?
Harder calvings, more risk of mortality for cow and calf, longer open times for cows to go back in calf.
Why would you want that risk?

I'm surprised by the number of people who see it this way. To me twins are a bonus, and mostly work out well.

I had 5 sets last year, one calf was born dead. So I have 4 extra calves. The only cow of the 5 that needed assistance was the one with the dead calf. Twin calves are never massive, so once they're coming right they pop out.

No issues with the cows going back in calf. The one in the picture is due to calve 6 weeks earlier this year. I gave her a few nuts 3 days a week over the winter, when rearing the two.

If the cow is under pressure, one calf can be weaned early. It'll still be better than a bucket reared dairy cross.

So to me it's a risk wort taking to double the output from a cow.

squinn2912 wrote: »

You have it well thought through ill give you that. How many cows are you running? I’m guessing that his mum isn’t related to many if any. I love your attitude on twins. I’m trying to think back now but my experience definitely isn’t as positive as yours. Over the last few years I think one cow managed to rear both calves, nearly always lose one of them and it takes an awful work to get the other one going (you could have that with any calf I know). You’re a twin factory as it is that’s some amount of them for one year. I bought a bulling heifer last year and she is springing now, her mother had twins since and she is scanned with twins. I dread it. Milk shouldn’t be a problem though if we can get her calved ok. They normally come early and she is the first to calve so well need to be on the ball.

'twin factory' lol.... Up until last year I only had a set every 2 or 3 years. I have over 60 cows.

I've never had a situation where I lost both calves and any that were born alive have survived.

I think the trick is, to keep a close eye on them. Which I try and do with all cows. So watch them at calving, give the cow a shake of nuts if she needs it after calving. Make sure both calves get beastings. Sometimes a twin calf will suck a bit elsewhere when they get going , but I'm fine with that.

If there's a bull and heifir I normally wean the heifir early and then sell her as a yearling. She'll have caught up by then.

The dam has a fair few half sisters in the herd. I didn't think crossing back on a half-aunt would be a problem????

minerleague wrote: »

have no direct knowledge myself but older generation (father ) always insisted you could get a huge calf as easy as a small one with crossbred bull. have ye any concern for the poor pedigree breeders out there at all and they practically giving them away:p

Ha ha, I've given plenty to the pedigree lads over the years.... Its so hard to get a bull that ticks all the boxes, that's why I'm thinking of keeping an animal that I know something about him.

I've had one bull pinning the calves against the wall as they came through the creep gate in the shed. Another nearly killed a cow because she jumped on another one that was bulling. Bulls that start growing their feet at 3yo. You don't want to be breeding heifers with that. These are all things that you can't know about at the time of purchase.

I know there are no guarantees with any animal, but breeding from a proven line in your own herd should be given more consideration imo.

There seem to be a few people interested in how this experiment works out. So I'll give an update every 6 months or so to keep you posted on progress.

The calf has been named Barney (by the kids, but I may as well start calling him this also !!).... Barney was weighed yesterday, he was 395kg, his twin brother was 350Kg and mammy was 900kg.

The twin brother was castrated a few weeks ago, so I think this knocked him back a little.

They were born on 14/10/19. No creep was fed since turnout at the start of April. The calves got 0.5 lb/day of nuts over the winter. Mammy got 5lb 3days/week over the winter.

The mother is due to calve again 28/8/20.

Assuming birth weight of 40kg, that's a daily gain of 1.4KG/day, for Barney.

I hoping he'll be ready to work (for a few cows) by mid-Oct (when he's 1 yo), as I think I'll run him with a bunch of dairy cross calves that I have, so he'll get 2lb nuts/day over the summer.

His ICBF figures are attached and another pic of himself.

"The guarantees you can get with Bulls are fertility test, genomic DNA'ed and the breeders evaluation from other references like lads that bought off him before" ... I currently have a PB CH bull that is doing a great job for me, and is delivering what the seller said, but lots of PB bulls with those guarantees breed poor quality calves, have poor temperament, turn out to have poor feet and f**k all milk in their heifer offspring. Putting a PB bull of any breed on crossbred cows of various breed composition, doesn't always result in a uniform batch of calves either. You won't know what a bull is going to be like until you have calves on the ground and if you're after replacements, until you calve some heifers after him.

I'm not expecting anyone to copy me nor am I looking for a clap on the back. I understand that a crossbred bull is less likely to bring uniform calves as his genetic make-up is more mixed. However I'm happy enough to try something different and see how it goes. I was trying to see if this bull from a proven dam line and a good AI SI bull would leave me some good heifer replacements. I've some nice calves on the ground and I'm going to keep them on as cows and we'll see how that goes.

The experiment didn't cost me anything. The animal was a twin to start with and he made €1820 in the mart in July. The bull calves will fit in with the CH and LM when they sell and I'd be more confident that his heifer calves will make good cows, than the ones from my maternal LM bull.

I like SIX cows and have had 4 PB SI bulls here over the number of years, in order to produce them. The first of that 4 bulls was a great bull and he made me. Left me great cows that tick all the boxes and are the backbone of my herd. The bull calves after that bull were top class also, unreal growth rate.

However it's hard to get a good SI bull. The ones i've had since were all disappointing, the main issue was lack of quality in the calves and one bull left cattle with poor temperament. His heifer calves turned out to be real contrary cows. One particular bull won his class in the pre-sale show, he looked a nice animal, but his off-spring were leggy and plain. So none of those bulls lasted long here. Hence the experiment with the crossbred bull. (and judging by his calves to date , he is better than 3 of the PB SI)

There is a fair element of luck with any of these bulls, but if you could get the right SI bull and cross on your LM cows, you'd have real nice cows from that cross. I think with SI bulls in particular, you need to have a fair bit of power and shape in the bull himself. I think avoid anything too tall. I'm sure there are people reading this that know better that I do what to look for. Also make sure he has a good milk figure, as not all SI bring milk either. Good luck with it. If you get a good one let us know the breeding.