A Thread For Teaching People Irish Language

Insect Overlord · 23-06-2020 12:21AM

I've posted a load of stuff in the sticky threads in the Gaeilge (Irish) forum for Junior Cert, Leaving Cert and general learning purposes.

Always open to questions and queries from learners of all levels, and Teach na nGealt is always there too if anyone wants to post about other general topics trí mheán na Gaeilge[/iI].

Airyfairy12 · 23-06-2020 12:33AM

Can someone explain to me how there are various dialects of Irish, what dialect we learn in school and how they differ from each other?

Having 'studied' Irish in school from age 4 - 17 I only learned there are different dialects in my early 20's by accident, seems like something we should have been told in school at some stage since we're learning the language?
I have such an appreciation for the language and would love to be able to speak it but feel a bit let down by the language education we received in school.

ILoveYourVibes · 23-06-2020 01:18AM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how there are various dialects of Irish, what dialect we learn in school and how they differ from each other?

Having 'studied' Irish in school from age 4 - 17 I only learned there are different dialects in my early 20's by accident, seems like something we should have been told in school at some stage since we're learning the language?
I have such an appreciation for the language and would love to be able to speak it but feel a bit let down by the language education we received in school.

I am certain Insect overlord will know much more than me. And he should be the supervisor!

But its interesting ..so i would like to give my opinion! If i may. But its not any more expert that anyone else's.

Firstly i WAS actually taught other dialects in school. Partic in the listening.

We were taught the diff gramatical forms a little.

Munster Irish for me and Ulster Irish were the clearest to understand. However Galway Irish ..they seem to roll the words into each other. Its harder for me to understand it.

The are a few ..but 3 main dialects. The connacht dialect the ulster dialect and the munster dialect. They are different because of different influences. Ulster has the influence of scotland. Kerry has the influence of french ....even in some words come from french. The whole munster Dialect is influenced by the Anglo-French of some dude called Norman.

Basically there is this thing called bhlas ...its not exactly accent ..not exactly tone ..not exactly rythm ..or phonetics ..but all of these. Each gaeltacht has its own ...bhlas.

Each dialect in English .....has its own bias towards itself. For instance Irish people prefer Irish accents subconsciously. And we understand them better. We might not understand yorkshire slang like our own. And we gravitate towards our own accents.

Same with movies ..radio ....that is why in the early years of speaking in Film....studios developed this 'TRANSATLANTIC ' accent in american films and why no one actually talks like that.

It was meant to appeal to ALL English speakers.

But these neutral or 'standard' accents serve a purpose for those learning a second language.

Usually all of us except the truly gifted will retain ..a tiny accent when we learn a language ...which is fine ..but that combined with a very marked effect...and difficult to understand for some people.

Consider this ...someone from spain ..learning english ...and coming out with a half spanish half north dubling accent .....then moving to america. Do you think people would be able to understand him more or less easily than had he tried to adopt a more neutral accent?

Its not a judgement on a dialect. But its an understanding of how languages work and its a realistic understanding that most speakers will not be able to completely mask an accent and may not even want to. Its giving them a helping hand in being understood. It also makes them less likely to encounter bias.

Someone from galway might not like or understand a donegal accent mixed with a dublin accent in Irish (particularly BROKEN BEGINNER IRISH) as much as his own.

The idea is ....that you try and teach people trying to acquire a 2nd language the most NEUTRAL accent possible. And one that most people have a lot of exposure too.

So for example ....in china and france ...most people try to learn American English. WHY? Besides US being a super power. WE all have the most exposure to that accent ....we are used to it. But Americans are not used to our accents. Its not that they are less clear...but its that they are not really present in American TV shows etc.

Yes i know there are many american accents ...but well i mean the one you see on the news ..which is itself a neutralized accent.

And the American accent is itself quite clear and SLOW.

While langauge learners do need to be able to understand people from galway ..donegal ...etc ..they need to speak like someone on RTE even if this is NOT a real accent. Because a child from dublin is not going to be able to replicate a galway accent perfectly ...

Its rare for a NATIVE to speak with a neutral accent so rare i would say it doesn't happen unless they have taken lessons to change their accents.

But its unusual for 2 nd language learners to really fully sound like they have a true dialect. And its a huge barrier to being understood. Its eliza dolittle territory.And changing the muscle memory etc ..hard.

So you accommodate their accent by trying to get them to make the most neutral easily understood sounds. But of course this accent doesn't really exist. Its a FAKE accent.

The issue occurs when the student thinks this is the only dialect they must understand.

You must SPEAK nuetral spanish ...however you should learn to understand the accent from andalucia. You must speak nuetral french but you must understand the french from marseille.

Now some people ..CAN learn a true accent. Rutger Hauer ...was one such man. However you can't argue the accent he ended up with was ...a neutral american one. ALSO ..he admitted it took him nearly 20 years of hard work to do it.

listen to him here ...

and then here...

do you see what has happened??

In the first interview ..he is attempting ...a REAL accent. British ish .??? Its not working. The second according to some Americans i asked...is a neutral ..american LA ISH non existent accent....but IT WORKS!

NOW listen to THIS

sergei polunin .....its a genuine russian/london mix right !??

NOW listen to THIS

Mikhaeil ..Baryshnickon....a mix of Russian/FAKE neutral ...received pronunciation ??

Out of Polunin and Baryshnikov?? who can YOU understand the most? And who do you think most other english speakers around the world could understand the most.

Now think ...polunin actually has the most fluency ....and its a REAL british accent ....and its probably not even put on ....its just the way he learned to speak.
Baryshnikov is putting on a fake ...received pronunciation one ....even tho his english is not as natural ..not as correct and a bit robotic ...its easier to understand because its NEUTRAL. Polunin might be more understood in london i don't know.

Unfortunately ..this has become a class thing etc ...which is wrong.

But the truth is ...very very very few people will ever sound like native speakers in a second language. Now i know for Irish speakers we are all Irish speakers etc.

So i like the idea of calling it BHLAS ...its nicer. Its not rejecting people. But a neutral bhlas ...for most people its going to work better.

Now please correct me if you think i am wrong....but its just my thoughts.

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR INSECT LORD'S OPINIONS!

ILoveYourVibes · 23-06-2020 01:24AM

So basically they say ....the one acquiring the second language ..must learn to understand every dialect ..or at least the hardest one.

BUT they must learn to speak in the neutral clearest dialect that native speakers have most exposure to ..and usually its not a real accent.

The neutral accent is the best way to ..mask a foreign sounding accent ....the worst way ..is an actual dialect...because it sounds EXTRA odd to people NOT from that dialect. Which is disheartening ...to the learner.

I think also BHLAS is an excellent word other languages should adopt.

For example this lady has a slight russian accent. You can place it straight away.

HOWEVER ...she has PERFECT American english ..bhlás!

Or well ..maybe i don't understand it at all ..and bhlas is something else.

But she has learned a nuetral ish dialect ..not an accent. When the opposite happens it actually starts to sound weird ...

Once again ..it SHOULD not be to judge people ...we all have accents. And whatever your accent you should have the same rights as anyone. But its about being clear and understood.

There is a difference between fluency ..and 'bhlas'

and then again ...actually sounding like a native or getting to bi lingual status ..its not really achievable for most. But fluency is achievable for all though.

REALLY wish other languages would adopt the word bhlas in linguistics ....its a marked diff between accent and bhlas ..copying accents can actually make things worse ...esp if the rhythm tone stress is wrong. Unless you have a really good ear.

I mean THINK about it ...when you are in English class ....what are you learning? Buke ..or book? Are you learning colloquial dublin english? Or maybe a bit of Hiberno English and much more Global standard English?

Insect Overlord · 23-06-2020 11:08AM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me how there are various dialects of Irish, what dialect we learn in school and how they differ from each other?

Having 'studied' Irish in school from age 4 - 17 I only learned there are different dialects in my early 20's by accident, seems like something we should have been told in school at some stage since we're learning the language?
I have such an appreciation for the language and would love to be able to speak it but feel a bit let down by the language education we received in school.

Schools and colleges usually teach the Caighdeán Oifigiúil/Official Standard. The Irish language version of that Wikipedia page goes into far more detail, so I might put an essay together on it later.

If you ever did the tape test in school ("Léigh anois go cúramach ar do scrúdpháipéar na treoracha agus na ceisteanna a ghabhann le Cuid A. BEEEEP!") then you would have heard the three main dialects. At secondary school level you'd only notice differences in accent and greetings (such as "How are you?" being Conas atá tú? in Munster, Cén chaoi 'bhfuil tú? in Conamara, Cad é mar atá tú? in Ulster). In reality there are loads of little differences to do with pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary and localised variations of words, all of which are perfectly acceptable in spoken conversation/poetry/songs/stories.

To draw a parallel from English, think of how differently the language is used in Newcastle or Australia or New York or Jamaica. It's all still English, but not the kind you'd hear used on BBC News.

There was something of a bias against the dialects in schools for most of the 20th Century, which may have done more harm than good. While there was some logic in wanting everyone to understand everyone else, it was probably wrong to try to make everybody sound the same.

Airyfairy12 · 23-06-2020 12:45PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Schools and colleges usually teach the Caighdeán Oifigiúil/Official Standard. The Irish language version of that Wikipedia page goes into far more detail, so I might put an essay together on it later.

If you ever did the tape test in school ("Léigh anois go cúramach ar do scrúdpháipéar na treoracha agus na ceisteanna a ghabhann le Cuid A. BEEEEP!") then you would have heard the three main dialects. At secondary school level you'd only notice differences in accent and greetings (such as "How are you?" being Conas atá tú? in Munster, Cén chaoi 'bhfuil tú? in Conamara, Cad é mar atá tú? in Ulster). In reality there are loads of little differences to do with pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary and localised variations of words, all of which are perfectly acceptable in spoken conversation/poetry/songs/stories.

To draw a parallel from English, think of how differently the language is used in Newcastle or Australia or New York or Jamaica. It's all still English, but not the kind you'd hear used on BBC News.

There was something of a bias against the dialects in schools for most of the 20th Century, which may have done more harm than good. While there was some logic in wanting everyone to understand everyone else, it was probably wrong to try to make everybody sound the same.

Thats really interesting.
What about dialects from other parts of the country? Like the East and South? I understand there's no Gaeltacht in these areas of course but are those dialects lost forever? Have there been any attempts to bring them back?

Upforthematch · 23-06-2020 12:58PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thats really interesting.
What about dialects from other parts of the country? Like the East and South? I understand there's no Gaeltacht in these areas of course but are those dialects lost forever? Have there been any attempts to bring them back?

Kilkenny Irish and Waterford Irish are very, very similar and there still is a Gaeltacht in Waterford today in Ring near Dungarvan. It's a nice spot.

The sounds are a bit different to the Cork / Kerry Irish but closer to them than to Ulster Irish for example.

Insect Overlord · 23-06-2020 01:39PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thats really interesting.
What about dialects from other parts of the country? Like the East and South? I understand there's no Gaeltacht in these areas of course but are those dialects lost forever? Have there been any attempts to bring them back?

As mentioned since I started typing this out, the Rinn Gaeltacht in Waterford has its own blas, Gaoluinn na nDéise.

There was a manuscript of Cúirt an Mheán-Oíche (The Midnight Court by Clare poet Brian Merriman, 1780) found in recent years that had been re-written to suit the extinct Roscommon dialect.

The late Daithí Ó hÓgáin released a book in 2011, Leabhrann Laighnigh, that documented examples of native Gaeilge in Leinster. I have the book but still haven't read it.

I think it's safe to say that Leinster was one of the first regions to lose the language on a wide scale. It would be very difficult to revive the dialects there in any meaningful way, but I guess it could happen if people were given the chance to study the little differences that made Leinster Irish unique.

Airyfairy12 · 23-06-2020 01:47PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

As mentioned since I started typing this out, the Rinn Gaeltacht in Waterford has its own blas, Gaoluinn na nDéise.

There was a manuscript of Cúirt an Mheán-Oíche (The Midnight Court by Clare poet Brian Merriman, 1780) found in recent years that had been re-written to suit the extinct Roscommon dialect.

The late Daithí Ó hÓgáin released a book in 2011, Leabhrann Laighnigh, that documented examples of native Gaeilge in Leinster. I have the book but still haven't read it. I think it's safe to say that Leinster was one of the first regions to lose the language on a wide scale. It would be very difficult to revive the dialects there in any meaningful way, but I guess it could happen if people were given the chance to study the little differences that made Leinster Irish unique.

Thanks for this, I love learning the history of the Irish language, wish I could find out more about it as its so interesting.

Ill definitely keep an eye out for Leabhrann Laighnigh, id love to read it.

Upforthematch · 23-06-2020 09:01PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Thanks for this, I love learning the history of the Irish language, wish I could find out more about it as its so interesting.

Ill definitely keep an eye out for Leabhrann Laighnigh, id love to read it.

That book was only 10euro online, a bargain, dont see it there now mind you.

There's a nice map that shows the types of Irish spoken in each county I'll see can I find it.

The book by Prof. O'Rahilly on dialects 1932? Was the seminal text in this area and then another set of lectures challenging them by O'Cuiv 1951 was published. Not sure what the most recent books are.

Insect Overlord · 23-06-2020 10:42PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Ill definitely keep an eye out for Leabhrann Laighnigh, id love to read it.

Upforthematch wrote: »

That book was only 10euro online, a bargain, dont see it there now mind you.

I had a typo in my post, so search for Labhrann Laighnigh (without the superfluous "e") if ye're looking for it online or in a library. It's divided into 8 sections (Dublin, Kildare, Offaly, Laois, Wicklow, Carlow, Wexford and Kilkenny) as the author considered the Boyne the traditional border of the province when many of the texts were written.

There is also a small Gaeltacht in County Meath, Ráth Chairn agus Baile Ghib, but Connacht Irish is spoken there.

Upforthematch · 23-06-2020 11:54PM

Ok, so I found the map - see https://imgur.com/a/XRRkHw4

As you'll see in this version, the Irish in most of modern day Leinster was most similar to Connacht Irish with Kilkenny and parts of Laois in Ossory linked to the Irish of East Munster.

Here's a real gem. On the top left hand corner you'll see islands off Canada, in particular Newfoundland or Talamh an Éisc.

To think that there was a Munster Irish colony in Canada is great - it could have been part of our Francophonie - Here's an article about them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Newfoundland

It's nice to see that the remnants of the 'major' Irish dialects as represented by the turquoise (Cork/Kerry), blue (East Munster), green (Connacht/Leinster) and red (Ulster) are still alive today.

A Thread For Teaching People Irish Language

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