Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Muckyboots · 20-06-2020 03:36PM

Greaney wrote: »

My answers are genuine. This thread has a tone that I don't really want to 'do'.

The whole debate has a tone and some nasty undercurrents. There are some people who treat all things railways with an unholy reverence and anyone who speaks disparaging of them as blaspheming trots. They are here too.

Greaney · 20-06-2020 04:03PM

Muckyboots wrote: »

The whole debate has a tone and some nasty undercurrents. There are some people who treat all things railways with an unholy reverence and anyone who speaks disparaging of them as blaspheming trots. They are here too.

Indeed, and those who are pro-greenway who are both haughty ... among other things

ShaneC1600 · 20-06-2020 04:23PM

Greaney wrote: »

Indeed, and those who are pro-greenway who are both haughty ... among other things

And of course the "ones on the fence" that can see the benefits of both sides, but see the greenway campaign as horrible and obnoxious!

Del.Monte · 20-06-2020 04:39PM

eastwest wrote: »

Planning would be required.
In the case of claremorris-collooney, the original line was built as a light railway and would have to be largely rebuilt completely. All that is left is most of the alignment.

A "Light" railway refers to the Act of Parliament that it was built under not that it was laid on Jubilee track like a lot of Bord na Mona. I have a map - somewhere - and will post when I find it, which shows the axle loading for all railway lines c.1947. While the Burma Road had a lower axle holding than many routes it was still able to accommodate A class locos, Sulzers etc.

monument · 20-06-2020 04:48PM

And the amount of at-grade junctions is horrifying.

ShaneC1600 · 20-06-2020 07:31PM

I just threw a look at the QMG Facebook page. Funny how they complain at comments getting removed from the WOT page that dont keep the party line pretending they dont do the exact thing and their followers believe them!

eastwest · 20-06-2020 09:04PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I used the same wording as ezstreet5. Does the term really bother you that much or is it fine when used by someone pro-WRC?

Not much bothers me, to be honest.
But I do get some amusement out of grown men believing in myths.

ezstreet5 · 20-06-2020 10:57PM

eastwest wrote: »

Not much bothers me, to be honest.
But I do get some amusement out of grown men believing in myths.

Consider Switzerland. The island of Ireland has about twice the land area, and about 78% of the population of Switzerland. Ireland's topography is rather flat compared to to Switzerland's (those annoying Alps!).

Yet, the Swiss have almost double the trackage compared to Ireland (with hundreds of km of tunnels), and nearly all of it is electrified.

The Swiss would not think twice about reinstating the WRC to Sligo (and beyond to the North). And they would electrify it (and all other lines). It would be a no-brainer to them, and not a myth.

And I suppose you could look at German rail and French rail in a similar manner.

Sligo eye · 20-06-2020 11:14PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Consider Switzerland. The island of Ireland has about twice the land area, and about 78% of the population of Switzerland. Ireland's topography is rather flat compared to to Switzerland's (those annoying Alps!).

Yet, the Swiss have almost double the trackage compared to Ireland (with hundreds of km of tunnels), and nearly all of it is electrified.

The Swiss would not think twice about reinstating the WRC to Sligo (and beyond to the North). And they would electrify it (and all other lines). It would be a no-brainer to them, and not a myth.

And I suppose you could look at German rail and French rail in a similar manner.

Don’t forget for some, we need to keep the car dependent policy in place. They will tell you that rail is “Victorian” and that buses are good enough. What they won’t tell you is that they are absolutely petrified that the “planners” and the “politicians” will, as they see it, “give in” and accept that we need to change the west permanently. They are petrified that the west will develop and people will come back home, not for sentimental reasons, but because the west will offer a top quality of life.

Times are changing. Even the proverbial dogs in the street know the rails are coming back. The West is on track.

intellectual dosser · 20-06-2020 11:21PM

eastwest wrote: »

Not much bothers me, to be honest.
But I do get some amusement out of grown men believing in myths.

This is the part I don't get.

Phase 1 of the WRC is complete. An independent review was commissioned on the remainder. A motion to conduct a feasibility study on the QMG couldnt get past a vote by Galway County Council, but in your eyes its the WRC that is the myth.

The QMG side seem to spike the ball at any soundbite in favour of greenway regardless of its origin or context and declare this whole thing a foregone conclusion. The posts and commentary on that NWRA strategy publication this week proved that.

Its bizarre to be honest.

eastwest · 20-06-2020 11:41PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

This is the part I don't get.

Phase 1 of the WRC is complete. An independent review was commissioned on the remainder. A motion to conduct a feasibility study on the QMG couldnt get past a vote by Galway County Council, but in your eyes its the WRC that is the myth.

The QMG side seem to spike the ball at any soundbite in favour of greenway regardless of its origin or context and declare this whole thing a foregone conclusion. The posts and commentary on that NWRA strategy publication this week proved that.

Its bizarre to be honest.

I'll tell you what's bizarre.
A TD who is deeply embedded in WOT agrees to support a minority government on one condition (apart from a good slice of extra money for himself), that he gets a review of the wrc within six months.
He could have got almost anything for his constituency, but he chose instead to devote all.his political capital towards getting this report done.
Six months came and went, and no report, yet he never threatened to pull the plug. Had he realised at that stage that there was never a chance of getting the railway? Had he found out that reality is a different thing from campaign promises?
When he finally got the report, he allowed his ministerial colleague to suppress it. He didn't at any time publicly ask for the report. Of the approximately twenty TDs who sought the report under PQs, our hero wasn't one of them.
Just consider that for a minute. Twenty TDs asked to see the rail report, formally and on the record of the Dail. Yet the man who had staked his political credibility on this same report, the man who caused half a million euro of our money to be spent on it, never opened his mouth.
Now that's bizarre. It's GUBU.

ezstreet5 · 20-06-2020 11:43PM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

This is the part I don't get.

A motion to conduct a feasibility study on the QMG couldnt get past a vote by Galway County Council, but in your eyes its the WRC that is the myth.

The motion ultimately did pass the County Council - that is - to seek funding for a feasibility study under a new 4.5 million funding stream from DTTAS. That study may not be approved, and it probably shouldn't be. It's entirely unnecessary. Of course it is feasible or possible or plausible to build a bicycle path on an unused rail line. The question is, is it expedient? The answer will be a resounding 'no.' The opportunity cost is too high.

The problem is that Galway Co. Co. is packed with novice politicians that are still swayed by Facebook campaigns, and affected by email and text message campaigns, and other 'low-level' activism (stirred by a local TD). The Galway councilors are not experienced enough to ignore that noise.

intellectual dosser · 20-06-2020 11:53PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

The motion ultimately did pass the County Council - that is - to seek funding for a feasibility study under a new 4.5 million funding stream from DTTAS. That study may not be approved, and it probably shouldn't be. It's entirely unnecessary. Of course it is feasible or possible or plausible to build a bicycle path on an unused rail line. The question is, is it expedient? The answer will be a resounding 'no.' The opportunity cost is too high.

The problem is that Galway Co. Co. is packed with novice politicians that are still swayed by Facebook campaigns, and affected by email and text message campaigns, and other 'low-level' activism (stirred by a local TD). The Galway councilors are not experienced enough to ignore that noise.

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

ezstreet5 · 21-06-2020 12:14AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

And some of these questions cannot be answered in a scientific manner. Would a "Quiet Man Greenway" attract the same level of tourism as costal greenways in areas of outstanding natural beauty? Probably not, but how does one quantify the discount? According to Cannon there is no discount, and if you build the greenway (the lucrative tourists) will come and spend. I know that isn't true, and we need much more tourist infrastructure than we have, and we don't have it yet, at least not in Athenry.

Greaney · 21-06-2020 12:15AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

You've brought up something rather interesting because I'd like to see figures comparing the Westport greenway to the Mullingar greenway also. Not all greenways are equal....

Meanwhile, the funding & expertise is still working on the Eurovelo in East Galway... and what with the Connemara Greenway that has 'actually' gotten the green light, I don't see money pouring into a third cycling route into the county unless it is shovel ready. Furthermore, everyone seems to forget.... Iarnrod Eireann own the land the WRC runs on.... I'm sure they're watching and listening to everything, and are on standby. My experience of them is they don't say no to stuff... they don't say yes either, unless you've got all your ducks in a row and are ready to shoot.

There was a lot more work done on the Connemara Greenway, by more seasoned cycling advocates than the Quiet Man Greenway long before they got a look in.... I watch and learn

Sligo eye · 21-06-2020 12:47AM

Greaney wrote: »

You've brought up something rather interesting because I'd like to see figures comparing the Westport greenway to the Mullingar greenway also. Not all greenways are equal....

Meanwhile, the funding & expertise is still working on the Eurovelo in East Galway... and what with the Connemara Greenway that has 'actually' gotten the green light, I don't see money pouring into a third cycling route into the county unless it is shovel ready. Furthermore, everyone seems to forget.... Iarnrod Eireann own the land the WRC runs on.... I'm sure they're watching and listening to everything, and are on standby. My experience of them is they don't say no to stuff... they don't say yes either, unless you've got all your ducks in a row and are ready to shoot.

There was a lot more work done on the Connemara Greenway, by more seasoned cycling advocates than the Quiet Man Greenway long before they got a look in.... I watch and learn

I’d say the powers that be who determine Greenway spending will prioritise the EuroVelo from Athlone all the way to Clifden. That’s a greenway that will catch the imagination alright. Dublin all the way to Connemara by bike will attract far more tourists from Ireland and beyond than the so called Quiet Man greenway.,

Perhaps I have spotted something. The Quiet Man greenway will indeed be quiet. Apart from Sunday mornings when muckyboots and pals go for their Sunday morning spin up to Claremorris and back.

A Local Greenway for Local People, perhaps that will be their motto.

ezstreet5 · 21-06-2020 12:57AM

Sligo eye wrote: »

I’d say the powers that be who determine Greenway spending will prioritise the EuroVelo from Athlone all the way to Clifden. That’s a greenway that will catch the imagination alright. Dublin all the way to Connemara by bike will attract far more tourists from Ireland and beyond than the so called Quiet Man greenway.,

Perhaps I have spotted something. The Quiet Man greenway will indeed be quiet. Apart from Sunday mornings when muckyboots and pals go for their Sunday morning spin up to Claremorris and back.

A Local Greenway for Local People, perhaps that will be their motto.

Holy cow!

Sligo eye · 21-06-2020 12:58AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

You have to remember that no matter how outlandish, or how implausible, greenway supporting statements do not need proof, financial justification or even credibility checking.

The Lord(s) hath spoken, and we should quake at their power and awesomeness, etc.

MayoForSam · 21-06-2020 01:04AM

Sligo eye wrote: »

A Local Greenway for Local People, perhaps that will be their motto.

3000 local people from Tuam perhaps?

- September 23rd, 2018, Tuam people march in support of QMG campaign.....

21-06-2020 01:06AM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Consider Switzerland. The island of Ireland has about twice the land area, and about 78% of the population of Switzerland. Ireland's topography is rather flat compared to to Switzerland's (those annoying Alps!).

Yet, the Swiss have almost double the trackage compared to Ireland (with hundreds of km of tunnels), and nearly all of it is electrified.

The Swiss would not think twice about reinstating the WRC to Sligo (and beyond to the North). And they would electrify it (and all other lines). It would be a no-brainer to them, and not a myth.

And I suppose you could look at German rail and French rail in a similar manner.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here?
Switzerland has three times the population density of this island (77.8/km2 vs 207/km2) and those people are concentrated in the more hospital valleys than scattered across a very flat and hospitable landscape.

Galway county has a population density of 42 per square km - picking a vaguely similar canton seems to be Valais.
Valais does indeed seem to have some impressive tunnels but perhaps these have more to do with it being in the centre of a continent of hundreds of millions of people than with area or population density.

https://www.regionalps.ch/train-valais/lignes-1663.html
The regional train service is two lines totalling 146km

Sligo eye · 21-06-2020 01:09AM

MayoForSam wrote: »

3000 local people from Tuam perhaps?

- September 23rd, 2018, Tuam people march in support of QMG campaign.....

And all those people marching against Brexit in Britain. They were listened to, weren’t they?

21-06-2020 01:16AM

Sigh, refuting you is getting to be a near daily occurrence

Ah well, keeps me occupied

Greaney wrote: »

You've brought up something rather interesting because I'd like to see figures comparing the Westport greenway to the Mullingar greenway also. Not all greenways are equal....

700 average daily users or to express it another way, about 3 weeks worth of trains in a single day

Note, that is without any promotion and those numbers are from ages ago. A MoU has been signed by Waterways Ireland and Westmeath, Kildare, Meath and Longford County Councils about contributing equally to a financial pie to promote the greenway nationally and internationally, as a tourist destination.

Some €1m has already been put into installing soft infrastructure along the greenway, such as benches, signage, fences and improved pavement.

The next phase is to launch and promote it, with each county contributing money and initiatives for same. However, the launch has been delayed by the Covid-19 outbreak.

Greaney wrote: »

Furthermore, everyone seems to forget.... Iarnrod Eireann own the land the WRC runs on.... I'm sure they're watching and listening to everything, and are on standby. My experience of them is they don't say no to stuff... they don't say yes either, unless you've got all your ducks in a row and are ready to shoot.

They already indicated they are willing to sign a lease on the line to the relevant councils

Greaney wrote: »

I will add that the Ballyglunin station committee officially support rail, they made a statement regarding that on their facebook page.

Is that the same facebook page that just 4 weeks ago posted that they have installed a sculpture to highlight their frustration with the slow progress of the Quiet Man Greenway?

Greaney wrote: »

I've personally talked to the folk in Ballyglunin in one of their station events. They'd all like the rail. They're under no illusion to the tourism draw of their wee station that they love and have put a lot of work in to.

Please do not misrepresent them. As per the above, they have even gone so far as to illustrate their frustration in a physical manifestation

donvito99 · 21-06-2020 01:29AM

Sligo eye wrote: »

Keeps you occupied? I suggest you find a more rewarding hobby.

His hobby would seem to be more rewarding than yours, which is just to post snotty, one line retorts to substantial points that you cannot challenge.

Sligo eye · 21-06-2020 01:33AM

donvito99 wrote: »

His hobby would seem to be more rewarding than yours, which is just to post snotty, one line retorts to substantial points that you cannot challenge.

I think it’s called “shooting fish in a barrel”

21-06-2020 02:08AM

Sligo eye wrote: »

You have to remember that no matter how outlandish, or how implausible, greenway supporting statements do not need proof, financial justification or even credibility checking.

The Lord(s) hath spoken, and we should quake at their power and awesomeness, etc.

Oh, you wanted a feasibility study, here is the one from Sligo CoCo for their portion of the line

https://www.sligococo.ie/PublicNotices/SligoGreenway/

Allow me to paste the main findings

There are no technical reasons why the greenway project should not proceed.
The proposed greenway would provide a sustainable, scenic and safe walking and cycling facility which will benefit the wider north west region.
Responses received indicate that consultees are overwhelmingly positive towards the project.
The on-line option was identified as the preferred option under almost all headings as the alongside option would entail significant additional civil engineering works with environmental implications and is more likely to encounter land ownership issues which may prove as significant obstacles to the project’s completion.
Detailed costings indicated that the on-line option would be at the lower end of the cost range on which the Meehan Tully (2016) report based its cost benefit analysis, and suggests a two year payback as the likely economic impact of the project. The cost of the alongside option was estimated to be 3.5 times the cost of the on-line option.
The proposed greenway will require Part 8 Planning Application in accordance with Planning and Development Regulations 2001 as amended. A Screening for Appropriate Assessment under Article 6(3) of the EU Habitats Directive (Directive 92/43/EEC), the Planning and Development Act 2000 (as amended), and the European Communities (Birds and Natural Habitats) Regulations 2011 (S.I. No. 477/2011) as amended and Screening for an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) in accordance with the EIA Directive 2014/52/EU and the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 (as amended) will also be required.

Pete_Cavan · 21-06-2020 08:26AM

Reopening Athenry to Tuam as railway would likely cost in the region of €50m (its about half the length of Athenry to Ennis which cost over €100m, add in bridge and a decade of inflation). For that, you would only be able to run a shuttle service between the two towns, the single track mainline won't facilitate more services. Given Athenry - Tuam would be single track, the service would be infrequent, how many morning commuter services could it realistically accommodate?

The capital and operating costs of the above would be significant. For virtually no additional capital spend and a fraction of the operating costs, a shuttle bus service could be provided instead. The bus would likely provide a better service as there is no infrastructure limitations on the frequency. There is no case for the railway and the yet to be released report almost certainly states as much.

TCDStudent1 · 21-06-2020 10:17AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Reopening Athenry to Tuam as railway would likely cost in the region of €50m (its about half the length of Athenry to Ennis which cost over €100m, add in bridge and a decade of inflation). For that, you would only be able to run a shuttle service between the two towns, the single track mainline won't facilitate more services. Given Athenry - Tuam would be single track, the service would be infrequent, how many morning commuter services could it realistically accommodate?

The capital and operating costs of the above would be significant. For virtually no additional capital spend and a fraction of the operating costs, a shuttle bus service could be provided instead. The bus would likely provide a better service as there is no infrastructure limitations on the frequency. There is no case for the railway and the yet to be released report almost certainly states as much.

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

Pete_Cavan · 21-06-2020 10:34AM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

I don't know, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will fill us in. Hard to see less than 50 mins between departures from Tuam allowing for journey time both ways and time at stations. Would be interesting to see, if the first service from Tuam arrived in Athenry to connect with a train to Galway, what would be the wait time for the next service for the next Galway train. With buses, there could be multiple in operation hitting every connection and giving greater flexibility to commuters.

Greaney · 21-06-2020 10:37AM

eastwest wrote: »

I'll tell you what's bizarre.
A TD who is deeply embedded in WOT agrees to support a minority government on one condition (apart from a good slice of extra money for himself), that he gets a review of the wrc within six months.
He could have got almost anything for his constituency, but he chose instead to devote all.his political capital towards getting this report done.
Six months came and went, and no report, yet he never threatened to pull the plug. Had he realised at that stage that there was never a chance of getting the railway? Had he found out that reality is a different thing from campaign promises?
When he finally got the report, he allowed his ministerial colleague to suppress it. He didn't at any time publicly ask for the report. Of the approximately twenty TDs who sought the report under PQs, our hero wasn't one of them.
Just consider that for a minute. Twenty TDs asked to see the rail report, formally and on the record of the Dail. Yet the man who had staked his political credibility on this same report, the man who caused half a million euro of our money to be spent on it, never opened his mouth.
Now that's bizarre. It's GUBU.

I think you have forgotten

Sean Canney (Tuam) topped the poll in the election
Louis O' Hara (Athenry) got the second highest first preferences after him.

I don't believe any smart politician or political strategist has forgotten that.
We may have another election sooner than you think

Their numbers are much more than those that marched in Tuam. Much much more....

Del.Monte · 21-06-2020 10:44AM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

Back in the 1960s it could be done in 25 mins with a request stop at Ballyglunin which is, of course, how the existing WRC should be operated i.e request stops at Sixmilebridge, Ardrahan and Craughwell. However, when you have inept politicians and CIE, a company with no vision except the lump for workers and golden handshakes for the higher echelons, you get the current mess. :rolleyes:

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Comments