Madeleine McCann

OwlsZat · 16-06-2020 08:38AM

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I don't understand your logic, specially after reading today's headline on Sky News news ...

A German prosecutor has written to the parents of Madeline McCann, telling them he had "concrete evidence" she is dead.

Hans Christian Wolters said in a letter to Kate and Gerry McCann that he has no doubt their daughter is dead, but refused to tell them why. He told them that to reveal the evidence would jeopardise the investigation into the German suspect known as Christian B.

So there is concrete evidence she is dead, yes?

Didnt this story break because the accused was boasting in a pub about his interaction with Madeline. Perhaps that account included details of her death?

Queasy Tadpole · 16-06-2020 09:03AM

Mules wrote: »

There's a difference between mental illness and being a criminal. Mental illness doesn't lead to criminality. Sex abusers are criminals. There's no evidence that they are ill. Some people are just evil, you can look to things in their upbringing but I'd say a lot of it is just that some people don't have a conscience. They do evil things because they enjoy them and they don't think about or don't care about the effect it will have on their victims.

Evil is a man made word, a fallacy. No one is evil. Evil does not exist.

People are messed up due to certain mental illnesses which lead to criminality.

Take this guy for example, lets say he is the one and is guilty. You think he is of sound mind? Nothing wrong with his brain chemistry? Raping women and murdering children? Anyone like this guy, serial killers, etc.. have a screw loose. Severe mental illness. Evil is a get out clause like most religious terms.

dark crystal · 16-06-2020 09:26AM

OwlsZat wrote: »

Didnt this story break because the accused was boasting in a pub about his interaction with Madeline. Perhaps that account included details of her death?

That in itself is not proof of death. The German prosecutor say they have concrete proof of death and have written to the McCanns confirming this.

I don't know what evidence they have of this sad fact, however, it will be something a lot more than someone's 'drunken ramblings'. They would have to be 100% sure before sending such a letter to her family.

limnam · 16-06-2020 09:30AM

dark crystal wrote: »

That in itself is not proof of death. The German prosecutor say they have concrete proof of death and have written to the McCanns confirming this.

I don't know what evidence they have of this sad fact, however, it will be something a lot more than someone's 'drunken ramblings'. They would have to be 100% sure before sending such a letter to her family.

How are the drunken ramblings related though ?

Proof of death != proof of CB.

Mattdhg · 16-06-2020 09:42AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Evil is a man made word, a fallacy. No one is evil. Evil does not exist.

People are messed up due to certain mental illnesses which lead to criminality.

Take this guy for example, lets say he is the one and is guilty. You think he is of sound mind? Nothing wrong with his brain chemistry? Raping women and murdering children? Anyone like this guy, serial killers, etc.. have a screw loose. Severe mental illness. Evil is a get out clause like most religious terms.

Society is functional because there is a standard we have all come to accept and abide by. We make up rules so that we can live peacefully side by side - I know you won't kill me because society will enforce severe punishments on you and decrease your quality of life, that's it.

If someone does terrible things, it doesn't imply they are mentally unwell. There's nothing physically wrong in your brain, you just have a disregard for man made rules.

That doesn't mean he's not a sick ****, he is, but being a serial rapist / possible murderer doesn't automatically mean you've some mental health condition. You can just be a mentally fit person with evil intentions, or a grudge against society. I think mental illness is carted out as an excuse for things far too often...

dark crystal · 16-06-2020 09:43AM

limnam wrote: »

How are the drunken ramblings related though ?

Proof of death != proof of CB.

I never said it was proof of CB doing it. The German police have named him as the suspect. That investigation is ongoing. I didn't name him as the suspect. I'm not in the habit of making wild accusations.

The point is that they have proof that Madeleine is dead and have informed the parents of this horrible fact.

Hopefully, in due course, they also find proof of whichever subhuman did it and get some justice for her and her family at long last.

Queasy Tadpole · 16-06-2020 09:43AM

The evidence is photo/video. It's the only logical explanation.

Babooshka · 16-06-2020 09:45AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

The evidence is photo/video. It's the only logical explanation.

Why not wait and see. We don't know everything and more speculation just leads to pages and pages of waffle here.

Queasy Tadpole · 16-06-2020 09:50AM

Mattdhg wrote: »

Society is functional because there is a standard we have all come to accept and abide by. We make up rules so that we can live peacefully side by side - I know you won't kill me because society will enforce severe punishments on you and decrease your quality of life, that's it.

If someone does terrible things, it doesn't imply they are mentally unwell. There's nothing physically wrong in your brain, you just have a disregard for man made rules.

That doesn't mean he's not a sick ****, he is, but being a serial rapist / possible murderer doesn't automatically mean you've some mental health condition. You can just be a mentally fit person with evil intentions, or a grudge against society. I think mental illness is carted out as an excuse for things far too often...

I won't kill you because I have no desire to do so. I value life and do not want to end yours or anyone else's. The thought makes me sick. The punishment I could receive doesn't even come into my head. It's a fundamental ingrained love of your fellow man. We are a social species, killing one of your own is evolutionary redundant.

I completely disagree with you. Yes he could be "mentally fit" to stand trial for example but there is something wrong with him, no doubt in my mind. The same as anyone who commits any of these horrible crimes.

There is something in the brain that allows humans to do these things and I fully believe that it can be found and eradicated.

Wombatman · 16-06-2020 10:11AM

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I don't understand your logic, specially after reading today's headline on Sky News news ...

A German prosecutor has written to the parents of Madeline McCann, telling them he had "concrete evidence" she is dead.

Hans Christian Wolters said in a letter to Kate and Gerry McCann that he has no doubt their daughter is dead, but refused to tell them why. He told them that to reveal the evidence would jeopardise the investigation into the German suspect known as Christian B.

So there is concrete evidence she is dead, yes?

This guy Wolters is talking a lot. Much of what he is saying could be lost in translation or deliberately twisted by the press to sensationalise.

This is what he said two days ago.

But speaking to the Sunday Mirror today, he appeared to row back on this.

“Because there is no forensic evidence there may be a little bit of hope (that she is alive),” he told the paper.

“We don’t want to kill the hope and because there is no forensic evidence it may be theoretically possible.

“I know it’s important for the British people when I say she is dead, but I did not know it was so important.”

Wolters added that in Germany it was “more normal” to have a murder investigation in similar cases.

https://www.thejournal.ie/madeleine-mccann-german-prosecutor-5122571-Jun2020/

How has his position changed so radically in two days?

I'm seeing the phrase "concrete evidence" a bit. Can anybody produce a quote where he say's they have concrete evidence, whatever that means?

We have all seen bad cop shows where the police release sketchy information that they have evidence, CCTV footage or hairs or something, in an attempt to get the suspect to say or do something rash and incriminating. I really hope this is not what is going on here.

He won't speak until evidence is found. Now suddenly evidence has been found. Hummmm?

Madeleine McCann suspect 'will refuse to answer police questions unless evidence found'

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/madeleine-mccann-suspect-will-refuse-22193377

walshb · 16-06-2020 10:20AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Evil is a man made word, a fallacy. No one is evil. Evil does not exist.

People are messed up due to certain mental illnesses which lead to criminality.

Take this guy for example, lets say he is the one and is guilty. You think he is of sound mind? Nothing wrong with his brain chemistry? Raping women and murdering children? Anyone like this guy, serial killers, etc.. have a screw loose. Severe mental illness. Evil is a get out clause like most religious terms.

Whatever

A nasty nasty depraved person...

Whatever label is put on it....

Evil means a wicked type person.....this, he is.

Banana Republic. · 16-06-2020 10:35AM

limnam wrote: »

I just find it mind boggling in a case like this where has been so much "weird" stuff going on.

That people quickly pass off endless amounts of suspicious events/behaviors etc

Then a guy in a pub is talking about pigs. Is put together with a pig farmer.

When we don't even know what was said in the pub.....

Yea and that is fair enough too but there’s a way to a good debate and all you do is get people’s backs up, look each to their own but the people who aren’t looking at every possibility are missing out on the case as a whole with their bias. I totally understand where you’re coming from on that valid point.

screamer · 16-06-2020 10:36AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

I won't kill you because I have no desire to do so. I value life and do not want to end yours or anyone else's. The thought makes me sick. The punishment I could receive doesn't even come into my head. It's a fundamental ingrained love of your fellow man. We are a social species, killing one of your own is evolutionary redundant.

I completely disagree with you. Yes he could be "mentally fit" to stand trial for example but there is something wrong with him, no doubt in my mind. The same as anyone who commits any of these horrible crimes.

There is something in the brain that allows humans to do these things and I fully believe that it can be found and eradicated.

There is something in the brain alright it’s a survival mechanism that has allowed us to evolve to become the apex preditor. I believe we are all capable of killing another human, but generally we will never be in a position that we have to to survive. Those who do kill are not all mad or mental I think that is disingenuous to people who suffer mental illness, the vast majority of whom would never harm anyone else.

There is no cure for people who kill for sport or pleasure unfortunately.

Banana Republic. · 16-06-2020 10:41AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

The evidence is photo/video. It's the only logical explanation.

Or DNA matching hers like blood or something in a location. If she is gone I hope this is the closure needed and I’ll be one if the ones who’ll put my hands up and say I got it wrong about the parents being involved but I know why I thought it all this time. Madeline is the main person here in terms of the whole story and it’s sad but it would be good in terms of having an ending to this. Much prefer she’s alive but that’s wishful thinking I suppose.

Queasy Tadpole · 16-06-2020 10:42AM

walshb wrote: »

Whatever

A nasty nasty depraved person...

Whatever label is put on it....

Evil means a wicked type person.....this, he is.

Yes but evil has a totalitarian connotation about it. They are "evil" and that's that.

There is an explanation to everything. They are not "evil" they are severely mentally disturbed. Was this guy born like this or his experiences throughout his life lead him to doing what he has done? I don't know. That's the age old question.

Whatever it is it can be found, isolated and treated or destroyed. In the future there will be a test, there might be a pill or a surgery or whatever but it will be treated I'm sure of that.

Evil is non existent and an excuse for the unexplainable, science will eventually resolve what cannot be explained and we as a society will come up with a cure so to speak.

Queasy Tadpole · 16-06-2020 10:49AM

screamer wrote: »

There is something in the brain alright it’s a survival mechanism that has allowed us to evolve to become the apex preditor. I believe we are all capable of killing another human, but generally we will never be in a position that we have to to survive. Those who do kill are not all mad or mental I think that is disingenuous to people who suffer mental illness, the vast majority of whom would never harm anyone else.

There is no cure for people who kill for sport or pleasure unfortunately.

There will be a cure for everything, it's all but brain chemistry. If we can invent pills to stop depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, etc.. eventually there will be a pill to deal with anything wrong with the brain.

Yes I agree that most of us could kill if it's required, e.g you or your loved one, child is going to be killed. Otherwise it is unneeded and against the propagation of our species.

Those who kill outside of what I outlined ARE mental. They have untreated mental illnesses and I believe eventually they can be treated. Take the pilll and your psychotic need to kill goes away.

OwlsZat · 16-06-2020 11:31AM

dark crystal wrote: »

That in itself is not proof of death. The German prosecutor say they have concrete proof of death and have written to the McCanns confirming this.

I don't know what evidence they have of this sad fact, however, it will be something a lot more than someone's 'drunken ramblings'. They would have to be 100% sure before sending such a letter to her family.

If he recounted a version of the truth which was corroborated by CCTV or photograph records etc.

If they had completely watertight evidence how do you explain it not being shared?

Banana Republic. · 16-06-2020 11:38AM

OwlsZat wrote: »

If he recounted a version of the truth which was corroborated by CCTV or photograph records etc.

If they had completely watertight evidence how do you explain it not being shared?

If I may interject, nobody is going to provide that evidence until they have a conviction or in the trial itself. The full circumstances of the death would still need to be investigated so only police on the case should be privy to that information.

Mules · 16-06-2020 11:43AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

Evil is a man made word, a fallacy. No one is evil. Evil does not exist.

People are messed up due to certain mental illnesses which lead to criminality.

Take this guy for example, lets say he is the one and is guilty. You think he is of sound mind? Nothing wrong with his brain chemistry? Raping women and murdering children? Anyone like this guy, serial killers, etc.. have a screw loose. Severe mental illness. Evil is a get out clause like most religious terms.

I'd look up what mental illness actually is. It's not a catch all term for people who so terrible things. To me, saying a criminal act is due to mental illness without any proof or even evidence is a get out clause. It also demonises people who are genuinely mentally ill. I do have an undergraduate psychology degree if this adds any weight to my opinion.

If you don't like the word evil you can say people's life experiences can lead to behavioural problems but people still choose to commit crimes. For every person with a terrible background, there are people with similar life experiences who don't commit crimes

Of course there are cases where a person loses touch with reality (psychosis) and don't know what they are doing. People in that state of mind can't cover up their crimes. That doesn't fit with the type of crimes that the German has been convicted of.

OwlsZat · 16-06-2020 11:44AM

Banana Republic. wrote: »

If I may interject, nobody is going to provide that evidence until they have a conviction or in the trial itself. The full circumstances of the death would still need to be investigated so only police on the case should be privy to that information.

Well they won't have a conviction until the after the trial. So yes, standard practice is to present evidence and report interviews at trial. Then why break from this standard practice and tell the family anything? I didn't think that was normal either. Should they not just say they can't comment while there is an active investigation in progress.

Banana Republic. · 16-06-2020 11:48AM

OwlsZat wrote: »

Well they won't have a conviction until the after the trial. So yes, standard practice is to present evidence and report interviews at trial. Then why break from this standard practice and tell the family anything? I didn't think that was normal either. Should they not just say they can't comment while there is an active investigation in progress.

I know yes. Maybe they need something from the parents, could jog a memory or place that could lead them to remembering this guy around the place or something. Usually they don’t give info unless they are looking for something in return. Just a theory IMO

Mules · 16-06-2020 11:59AM

Queasy Tadpole wrote: »

There will be a cure for everything, it's all but brain chemistry. If we can invent pills to stop depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, etc.. eventually there will be a pill to deal with anything wrong with the brain.

Yes I agree that most of us could kill if it's required, e.g you or your loved one, child is going to be killed. Otherwise it is unneeded and against the propagation of our species.

Those who kill outside of what I outlined ARE mental. They have untreated mental illnesses and I believe eventually they can be treated. Take the pilll and your psychotic need to kill goes away.

There's no such thing as a psychotic need to kill. Psychosis simply means losing touch with reality. You might mean psychopathic, but not knowing what the terms mean doesn't lend credibility to your analysis. Psychopathy doesn't involve a need to kill either.

As an aside, we haven't invented anything that stops mental illness. We do have treatments that lesson the symptoms of some illnesses and often allow sufferers to lead relatively normal lives. Human behaviour, good and bad, s a lot more complex than can be explained by brain chemistry. It seems like when people don't understand why someone would do something they assume it's mental illness without any evidence.

Mattdhg · 16-06-2020 12:04PM

Banana Republic. wrote: »

I know yes. Maybe they need something from the parents, could jog a memory or place that could lead them to remembering this guy around the place or something. Usually they don’t give info unless they are looking for something in return. Just a theory IMO

Or the public. If people in the know were initially reluctant to name Brueckner they may stepforward now that he has been so publicly named as a major suspect. They'd be adding weight to an argument rather than throwing around accusations, if that makes sense..

Babooshka · 16-06-2020 12:16PM

Banana Republic. wrote: »

I know yes. Maybe they need something from the parents, could jog a memory or place that could lead them to remembering this guy around the place or something. Usually they don’t give info unless they are looking for something in return. Just a theory IMO

They may be pleading with them to retest the dna from the apartment, according to one newspaper I've read this morning that's what they'd like to do to try get a match to him being in there.

Mattdhg · 16-06-2020 12:19PM

Babooshka wrote: »

They may be pleading with them to retest the dna from the apartment, according to one newspaper I've read this morning that's what they'd like to do to try get a match to him being in there.

I'm not sure if they'd find anything.

The Irish girl who was raped out there in 2005 said she believes the perpetrator was Brueckner after seeing images of him and hearing of his other crimes. She said he was meticulous about leaving behind no DNA - wearing a full body leotard and changing condom multiple times.

Extremely grim, but hopefully there will be some hard evidence linking him.

Babooshka · 16-06-2020 12:22PM

Mattdhg wrote: »

I'm not sure if they'd find anything.

The Irish girl who was raped out there in 2005 said she believes the perpetrator was Brueckner after seeing images of him and hearing of his other crimes. She said he was meticulous about leaving behind no DNA - wearing a full body leotard and changing condom multiple times.

Extremely grim, but hopefully there will be some hard evidence linking him.

Yes I know, I guess they have to try everything they can.

Queasy Tadpole · 16-06-2020 12:34PM

Mules wrote: »

There's no such thing as a psychotic need to kill. Psychosis simply means losing touch with reality. You might mean psychopathic, but not knowing what the terms mean doesn't lend credibility to your analysis. Psychopathy doesn't involve a need to kill either.

As an aside, we haven't invented anything that stops mental illness. We do have treatments that lesson the symptoms of some illnesses and often allow sufferers to lead relatively normal lives. Human behaviour, good and bad, s a lot more complex than can be explained by brain chemistry. It seems like when people don't understand why someone would do something they assume it's mental illness without any evidence.

Well I would disagree, there is an obvious and evidential case of a psychotic need to kill, look at the abundance of serial killers. They felt a "need" to kill. This exists.

We have not YET invented anything to curb mental illness yet we do have medications to reduce or remove the majority of the negative reactions to these mental issues.

I'd again disagree, human behavior is a result of brain chemistry. Some of us have broken, misplaced or destroyed chemistry which leads to deviant behavior.

As time goes on and our knowledge of technology and physiology grows as will our knowledge of the human brain. We will isolate these issues and remove them.

dark crystal · 16-06-2020 12:36PM

McCanns deny they have received letter from German authorities stating Madeleine is dead:

https://news.sky.com/story/madeleine-mccann-parents-reports-german-authorities-sent-us-letter-about-her-death-false-12007820

Yet German prosecutor Mr. Wolters, who is leading the investigation, told British reporters just yesterday that he had. I don't know what the hell is going on....

take everything · 16-06-2020 12:41PM

Can anyone make sense of "concrete evidence" and "99.9% sure" that she is dead and "no forensic evidence".

My Venn diagram for these two pieces of information coexisting seems to be broken.

It seems to me almost certain with everything I've.heatd.about this case and the other cases this guy is responsible. And I would question why anyone would doubt this. And it's unbelievable he only got short sentences with all the stuff he was arrested for across Europe.

But I can't seem to make sense of those two contradictory messages above.

Anyway.
Poor child.

Hamsterchops · 16-06-2020 12:46PM

*Breaking News - Sky 12:40pm Tuesday/16th June.

Madeline's parents deny that a letter has been received from German authorities claiming to have "concrete" evidence of their daughters death.

The previous reports were false.
Talk about a rollercoaster . . . .

Madeleine McCann

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