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Speed Preservation: How much did you preserve running your pbs?

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  • 15-06-2020 4:15pm
    #1
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭


    Here's an idea from Steve Magness on how to figure out the type of runner you are or at least some of your weaknesses and strengths.

    Based on Frank Horwill's ridiculous 4s rule (every time you double the distance you should be able to run the next at 4sec slower per 400m), you work out your pace for 400m for your various PBs and see how much speed you've preserved as a %. e.g. with 61s per lap for 800m / 67s per lap for 1500m, I divide 61 by 67 to get my speed preservation %.

    Generally, the more you go up in distance, you should see higher and higher speed preservation numbers, regardless of distance. But, between different types of runners, that drop off will change from one to next.

    "The interesting thing is that as we go up in endurance type we see higher and higher speed preservation numbers, regardless of distance. What changes within the groups, is the degree of drop off from one event to the next."

    Obviously, the numbers are going to be heavily influenced by the distances you've done a lot of or have trained specifically for. I haven't run a 10k ever, never ran a good 3k, my marathon time is from 2012 and my 5k pb is a big outlier (although Magness says the average 3000/5000% is 96.61%) but it's an interesting way to look at your profile nonetheless.

    There should be a fair few marathon %s on here in the 95%+ I would have thought.

    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%

    More on the background here:
    https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2014/06/classifying-runners-fun-with-numbers.html?v=47e5dceea252


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    #2
    MrSkinny
    Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭MrSkinny


    Very interesting ... I have never raced distances below 5k apart from the mile (something I'm planning to remedy after the next training block) or a Marathon so I can only contribute a couple of data points but it'll be interesting to see how the table shapes up.

    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-


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    #3
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,420 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%

    Interesting. Not sure what it all means. Used mile rather than 1500. 3k time is from a club TT around Christmas time, so probably best disregarded.


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    #4
    dna_leri
    Registered Users Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%

    Based on M40+ PBs
    Hmm, interesting but also not sure how to interpret.
    Difficult when most of us have not really trained hard for every event.
    I think my 800m time is a bit of an outlier, which I guess I knew
    I have only ran 1 HM and not flat out so that distorts the upper end also


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    #5
    shotgunmcos
    Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%

    1500 based off recent mile TT. 3k is from a TT yonks ago. 5k to HM are all from around that time in my early to mid 30s. Marathon is recent and will get better :)


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    #6
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%

    No words needed!


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    #7
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,181 ✭✭✭healy1835


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|-|-|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%

    I also had a look at my 10k vs 10 Mile pb vs HM time, worked out at 95.4% & 98.4% respectively. Think the jump from 10k to HM is too far, and the 10 Mile would be a good figure to look at. Doesn't tell me anything I didn't know already; the big performance on the big day is still waiting to be put in :)


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    #8
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%

    Added the world records for comparison. Also remembered I did a 10k xc race that I've plugged in for myself.

    In terms of interpretation, as a few of you mentioned, you're probably the best judge of what it tells you! A high % could be the result of a strong pb on the over distance event or a weak one on the under distance event. Similarly, a low % could be the result of a strong pb on the under distance event or a weak one on the over distance event.

    I know where my weaknesses are but it's an extra dimension to think about, some %s to potentially improve and a bit of statistical distraction!

    @healy1835 - I take your point about the 10k + HM comparison but they are just over the x2 in terms of distance.

    ps The Horwill Rule is actually 5s for women and 4s for men


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    #9
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    Also useful to take the WR as some form of standard and see how far you deviate from that.


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    #10
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%

    Woohoo, I didn't break the table.

    Very interesting, but so hard to normalise the data.

    Very obvious trend for me, but I actually think it's as much to do with the fact that my Marathon was the first race I trained for. And since then, I've been sliding down the distances. So each time I've dropped distance, I've been a stronger better runner. Those % numbers actually represent the age of my PB. (Mara is all the way from 2014)


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    #11
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%
    BeepBeep67 (M40)|-|93.0%|93.9%|97.4%|93.5%|95.0%|90.9%

    Adding me back in and adding since M40 in.


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    #12
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,181 ✭✭✭healy1835


    BeepBeep67 wrote: »

    Adding me back in and adding since M40 in.

    Ooops. My bad :(


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    #13
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    healy1835 wrote: »
    Ooops. My bad :(

    Never trust a yellow belly :pac::pac::pac:


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    #14
    healy1835
    Registered Users Posts: 2,181 ✭✭✭healy1835


    BeepBeep67 wrote: »
    Never trust a yellow belly :pac::pac::pac:

    You're right about that. I am however a Lilywhite :) You're not my first 'internet running friend' to think that though as I failed to notice until a short time ago that Strava had my location down as Rossminogue, Wexford... A place I had never heard of, but somehow set as my home when trying to update my profile :)


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    #15
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,420 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Sacksian wrote: »
    Also useful to take the WR as some form of standard and see how far you deviate from that.

    Looks like BeepBeep is the only runner with a decent 3k. ;)


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    #16
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    BeepBeep67 (M40!) has - I think - the 8/1500, 1500/3000m, 3000m/5000m and 10k/HM conversions that are closest to the Men's world records. Is that right?

    Healy1835 and Shotgunmcos have the 5k/10k conversions closest to the WRs.

    And dna_leri has the conversions closest to the WR times at the extremes of the distances, both 400/800 and hm/marathon.


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    #17
    jamule
    Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭jamule


    tables scare me.

    400/800 91.66
    800/1500 93.45
    1500/3000 93.8
    3000/5000 96.80
    5000/10k 96.70
    10k/1/2m 93.90


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    #18
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,420 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Sacksian wrote: »
    BeepBeep67 (M40!) has - I think - the 8/1500, 1500/3000m, 3000m/5000m and 10k/HM conversions that are closest to the Men's world records. Is that right?

    Healy1835 and Shotgunmcos have the 5k/10k conversions closest to the WRs.

    And dna_leri has the conversions closest to the WR times at the extremes of the distances, both 400/800 and hm/marathon.

    My comment is based on BeepBeep's 3-5k conversion - the percentage is lower than everyone else's (except women's WR), and I assume that's because his 3k is as good as his 5k (he does have national medals at both distances AFAIK). :)

    Most of the rest of us have relatively high numbers for 3-5k because presumably the 3k time is weak.


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    #19
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%
    BeepBeep67 (M40)|-|93.0%|93.9%|97.4%|93.5%|95.0%|90.9%
    Jamule|91.7%|93.5%|93.8%|96.8%|96.7%|93.9%|-


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    #20
    Sacksian
    Registered Users Posts: 1,895 ✭✭✭Sacksian


    Murph_D wrote: »
    My comment is based on BeepBeep's 3-5k conversion - the percentage is lower than everyone else's (except women's WR), and I assume that's because his 3k is as good as his 5k (he does have national medals at both distances AFAIK). :)

    Most of the rest of us have relatively high numbers for 3-5k because presumably the 3k time is weak.

    We can't really infer anything about the quality of the times based on the percentages alone but consistently good conversions, or ones close to the WRs, across the distances are probably a sign of good range!

    Jamule and BeepBeep probably the most consistent.


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    #21
    spc78
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭spc78


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%
    BeepBeep67 (M40)|-|93.0%|93.9%|97.4%|93.5%|95.0%|90.9%
    Jamule|91.7%|93.5%|93.8%|96.8%|96.7%|93.9%|-
    spc78|-|-|-|97.5%|95.2%|93.3%|94.7%


    I set my HM PB during my marathon PB:) The 4 sec a lap rule means my HM should be 2min faster and my Marathon PB should be 5min faster


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    #22
    Itziger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,015 ✭✭✭Itziger


    Ok, dumb question time. Is there a nice conversion tool to work out the bloody percentages or do you have to do the Maths yourself? I'm guessing you put in your pb's, but where?


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    #23
    Murph_D
    Registered Users Posts: 10,420 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    Calculator! PB1 pace / PB2 pace.

    Any of the usual running calculators will work out the pace bit for you.


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    #24
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Itziger wrote: »
    Ok, dumb question time. Is there a nice conversion tool to work out the bloody percentages or do you have to do the Maths yourself? I'm guessing you put in your pb's, but where?
    Use this formula: [ST] * 100 / ([LT] / ([LD] / [SD])), where:
    [ST] = your PB at the shorter distance (in seconds)
    [LT] = your PB at the longer distance (in seconds)
    [LD] = the longer distance (in metres)
    [SD] = the shorter distance (in metres)

    So, if your 5k PB is 17:30 (1050 seconds), and your 10k PB is 36:45 (2205 seconds), the formula for 5k/10k would be:
    1050 * 100 / (2205 / (10000 / 5000)) = 95.24

    Which gives me the dubious distinction of being the first to add a >100% value. Yes, my 5k pb pace is faster than my 3k PB pace :pac: Incidentally, my half-marathon-to-10mile comparison is an even bigger outlier at 101.8%

    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%
    BeepBeep67 (M40)|-|93.0%|93.9%|97.4%|93.5%|95.0%|90.9%
    Jamule|91.7%|93.5%|93.8%|96.8%|96.7%|93.9%|-
    spc78|-|-|-|97.5%|95.2%|93.3%|94.7%
    28064212|91.0%|93.1%|94.0%|100.5%|94.9%|96.2%|96.9%

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    #25
    djemba djemba
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭djemba djemba


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%
    BeepBeep67 (M40)|-|93.0%|93.9%|97.4%|93.5%|95.0%|90.9%
    Jamule|91.7%|93.5%|93.8%|96.8%|96.7%|93.9%|-
    spc78|-|-|-|97.5%|95.2%|93.3%|94.7%
    28064212|91.0%|93.1%|94.0%|100.5%|94.9%|96.2%|96.9%
    Djemba djemba|||||97.65|92|99.1


    I think that is correct. My half marathon time is from 2017. For one reason or another I have not done a half since early 2018. I only included pbs for that event. I have ran quicker halves in my marathon time but I have never counted those as a pb.


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    #26
    ClashCityRocker
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ClashCityRocker


    Name |400/800|800/1500|1500/3000|3000/5k|5k/10k|10k/HM|HM/Mar
    Men's WR|85.1%|92.0%|93.4%|97.0%|96.0%|95.2%|95.3%
    Women's WR|84.1%|92.1%|94.8%|95.2%|96.9%|95.3%|96.4%
    Sacksian|91.1%|90.1%|90.7%|98.8%|89.4%|94.4%|92.5%
    MrSkinny|-|-|-|-|94.0%|94.3%|-
    Murph_D|-|89.3%|88.9%|98.7%|93.6%|94.1%|93.2%
    dna_leri|90.0%|85.5%|91.3%|98.7%|92.0%|87.9%|96.1%
    shotgunmcos|-|-|96.6%|98.9%|95.7%|96.2%|93.6%
    Healy1835|-|-|-|-|96.3%|94.02%|91.5%
    Crisco10|-|-|97.1%|98.4%|94.3%|92.4%|86.5%
    BeepBeep67|96.9%|94.1%|92.9%|96.5%|94.3%|88.0%|90.9%
    BeepBeep67 (M40)|-|93.0%|93.9%|97.4%|93.5%|95.0%|90.9%
    Jamule|91.7%|93.5%|93.8%|96.8%|96.7%|93.9%|-
    spc78|-|-|-|97.5%|95.2%|93.3%|94.7%
    28064212|91.0%|93.1%|94.0%|100.5%|94.9%|96.2%|96.9%
    Djemba djemba|||||97.65|92|99.1
    ClashCityRocker|||||97.22%|95.55%|95.07%


    I did the calcs for a couple of my other pbs too, and the main point is my 5 mile time needs a bit of work (5 mile to 10km is 102%)


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