Is it just me or have SF vanished?

11-06-2020 05:49PM

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

SF should be more vocal on the BLM protests but i guess all the people they get money from the states from are trumpers now.

I think ending direct provision and repealing the 27th ammendment here,would be more relevent??

blanch152 · 11-06-2020 05:54PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And dark elements in FG of the period. However much you try to trivialise/whitewash it, there is this fact.

https://www.lookleftonline.org/2010/08/fine-gaels-fascist-roots/

My view, expressed before, is acceptance that these things happened, Russell's stupid dalliance included.

I point the finger at the generation not at single people or party's because it feeds into my bias.

Discuss it all openly, or not at all.

So the Irish government was as bad as the Nazis? Seriously, you can't just point the finger equally at everyone, that is the lame excuse that Sinn Fein use all the time.

As always, there are degrees of culpability, and Russell is a particularly nasty figure from that time over a long period of association with Sinn Fein.

FrancieBrady · 11-06-2020 05:56PM

blanch152 wrote: »

So the Irish government was as bad as the Nazis?

blanch on his misrepresentation hobby horse again.

Seriously, you can't just point the finger equally at everyone, that is the lame excuse that Sinn Fein use all the time.

As always, there are degrees of culpability, and Russell is a particularly nasty figure from that time over a long period of association with Sinn Fein.

Sorry...if you want to engage in pointing fingers then you have to point at everyone and see how they fare.

This isn't your selective wee bubble.

11-06-2020 06:00PM

blanch152 wrote: »

So the Irish government was as bad as the Nazis? Seriously, you can't just point the finger equally at everyone, that is the lame excuse that Sinn Fein use all the time.

As always, there are degrees of culpability, and Russell is a particularly nasty figure from that time over a long period of association with Sinn Fein.

Was he not replaced by the ira by frank ryan (anniversairy today btw RIP) a man with some pretty serious anti facist credentials?

blackwhite · 11-06-2020 08:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Was he not replaced by the ira by frank ryan (anniversairy today btw RIP) a man with some pretty serious anti facist credentials?

And who was quite happy to do a volte-face on those credentials to spend the last 4 years of his life living in Nazi Germany, working with the Nazis through the majority of WW2

maccored · 11-06-2020 08:14PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Borders bring smugglers, yes, that it true, nobody disputes that. In itself, that isn't reason to get rid of a border.

However, the problem people have, is not the existence of borders or of smugglers that exploit them, it is the celebration of criminal smuggler thugs as "good republicans" as the former leader of Sinn Fein repeatedly did, and for which the current leadership refuse to apologise.

no - the accusation is being made that SFers and SF supporters are doing all the laundering of diesel etc etc. totally inaccurate and its the kind of throw it and see if it sticks crap that goes on around here. usually by people who apparently hate the party but take every opportunity to tell us all the things SF seem to do. The ABSF people are a bit strange that way. almost like SF worship in reverse

11-06-2020 08:18PM

blackwhite wrote: »

And who was quite happy to do a volte-face on those credentials to spend the last 4 years of his life living in Nazi Germany, working with the Nazis through the majority of WW2

Aye....though his involvement with nazis pre augest 1940 and post june 1941 seems to been near zero with them

He is a fasinating excert of irish history,who id loved to learn more on tbh,

Believed to be the ira representive in europe during ww2,similar part to what Fr Ryan of tipp done for the provos it seems (i do love the yearn about him and confession

)

As for sean russell....il take the word of erwin lahousen of neuremberg trial fame on him

Chiparus · 11-06-2020 09:50PM

Hubertj wrote: »

you can use google. Did you really not know that? Only the US and Switzerland spend more.

I did , I could not find it any where, are you confusing Ireland with Norway or Luxembourg perhaps?

Suckit · 11-06-2020 11:33PM

blanch152 wrote: »

About time, and to think he is still celebrated by many Sinn Fein supporters.

A Nazi collaborator statue has no place.

Sounds like sour grapes O'Duffy never got a statue.

markodaly · 12-06-2020 03:27AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it wouldn't.
Despite Leo and FG trying to motivate a braying mob over the Russell statue, most people can see through it, I would say.

That Sean Russell statue was seen as contentious for a long time before Leo ever mentioned it.

paul71 · 12-06-2020 07:14AM

Chiparus wrote: »

I did , I could not find it any where, are you confusing Ireland with Norway or Luxembourg perhaps?

I would have thought Irelands high expenditure on Health was common knowledge, but to correct the previous poster I believe we are 5th not 3rd.

Bishop of hope · 12-06-2020 07:43AM

paul71 wrote: »

I would have thought Irelands high expenditure on Health was common knowledge, but to correct the previous poster I believe we are 5th not 3rd.

In terms of gdp our spend is low.
In 2018 we were ranked 27th in that scale, well down the list.
I don't imagine it's changed much since.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

paul71 · 12-06-2020 08:26AM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

In terms of gdp our spend is low.
In 2018 we were ranked 27th in that scale, well down the list.
I don't imagine it's changed much since.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

GDP makes very little sense in measuring our spend because of the inclusion of multinational profits routed through Ireland which bear no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.

We are 5th on per captia spend 5528(euro) in 2018, which incidentally is only barely behind Germany 5551(euro).

Bishop of hope · 12-06-2020 09:27AM

paul71 wrote: »

GDP makes very little sense in measuring our spend because of the inclusion of multinational profits routed through Ireland which bear no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.

We are 5th on per captia spend 5528(euro) in 2018, which incidentally is only barely behind Germany 5551(euro).

Our health service is poor for our spend anyway.
Let that be mismanagement or poor governance.
So GDP bears no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.
That's a flawed statement or there is something terribly wrong with our tax system, your basically saying we are a tax haven so?

Bishop of hope · 12-06-2020 09:34AM

Ledger Squeaking Pediatrician wrote: »

According to most economists we are, yes.

To what advantage if gdp bears no relation to economic activity?

paul71 · 12-06-2020 09:43AM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Our health service is poor for our spend anyway.
Let that be mismanagement or poor governance.
So GDP bears no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.
That's a flawed statement or there is something terribly wrong with our tax system, your basically saying we are a tax haven so?

Yes we are and yes your health system is seriously flawed but it is not and never has been underfunded.

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 09:46AM

paul71 wrote: »

GDP makes very little sense in measuring our spend because of the inclusion of multinational profits routed through Ireland which bear no correlation to economic activity in Ireland.

We are 5th on per captia spend 5528(euro) in 2018, which incidentally is only barely behind Germany 5551(euro).

lets see,
5528 X 4.9 million -27 .1 billion??

Seems to be 10 billion over the official figure?

My bad , 13 billion above the official figure.

paul71 · 12-06-2020 09:52AM

Chiparus wrote: »

lets see,
5528 X 4.9 million -27 .1 billion??

Seems to be 10 billion over the official figure?

It is total expenditure on health as published by WHO , private and public and is measured the same way as in all other countries. Take the US for example. 9900 per person per year, that is almost entirely private.

Bishop of hope · 12-06-2020 10:08AM

Chiparus wrote: »

lets see,
5528 X 4.9 million -27 .1 billion??

Seems to be 10 billion over the official figure?

We might being racist and only counting citizens!

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 10:09AM

paul71 wrote: »

It is total expenditure on health as published by WHO , private and public and is measured the same way as in all other countries. Take the US for example. 9900 per person per year, that is almost entirely private.

So private medicine is 13 billion in Ireland ?

who knew?

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 10:10AM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

We might being racist and only counting citizens!

No , fairly sure the census counts all residents.

paul71 · 12-06-2020 10:20AM

Chiparus wrote: »

So private medicine is 13 billion in Ireland ?

who knew?

Not surprising really, add up all payouts by VHI and the other insurance companies and all money paid directly for private gp visits and prescriptions.

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 10:32AM

paul71 wrote: »

Not surprising really, add up all payouts by VHI and the other insurance companies and all money paid directly for private gp visits and prescriptions.

Still does not add up.

€600 miliilion was the out of pocket cost for prescriptions that year for example.

paul71 · 12-06-2020 10:44AM

Chiparus wrote: »

Still does not add up.

€600 miliilion was the out of pocket cost for prescriptions that year for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

Here you go, if you have any further doubts you can refer them to the professional statisticians of The World Health Organisation.

JohnnyFlash · 12-06-2020 10:50AM

All the parties have signed up to Sláintecare, which is a good start when trying to tackle the enormously complex problem that is healthcare.

There two major issues that are making healthcare delivery and funding increasingly complex. One we have some control over, and the other is just a macro issue being witnessed worldwide.

1) We have far too many small hospitals. Hospitals like Our Ladies in Navan, Cavan Monagahan General Hospital etc. Places that provide almost no specialities, or else do them badly. They belong to the era of the horse and cart, nuns delivering babies, and TB outbreaks. Yet you'll have a load of slack-jawed yokels standing outside protesting if it's suggested that a specialist unit within the hospital is moved.

We now have motorways and air ambulances. Regional hospitals might work as step-down facilities, but have no place offering acute services. WE need to build more large hospitals in major population centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick. This is covered under Sláintecare. We even have the sites in many cases - Merlin Park in Galway was a former TB hospital that can provide a site for a large hospital with access to the motorway network.

2) People are living far longer. Modern medicine means people are living far longer, and have far better outcomes and chances of survival when they do get sick. This is putting enormous strain on our healthcare service (and on housing, but that's for another thread). This isn't unique to Ireland, and much vaunted healthcare systems like those in Canada and Finland are also struggling with this situation.

There's no easy answers, and populist rhetoric in healthcare is particularly damaging to civil discourse as it promises things that can't be delivered.

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 10:51AM

paul71 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

Here you go, if you have any further doubts you can refer them to the professional statisticians of The World Health Organisation.

Or the people who supply them erroneous figures.

paul71 · 12-06-2020 10:53AM

Chiparus wrote: »

Or the people who supply them erroneous figures.

Rubbish, you are clutching at straws.

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 10:57AM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

All the parties have signed up to Sláintecare, which is a good start when trying to tackle the enormously complex problem that is healthcare.

There two major issues that are making healthcare delivery and funding increasingly complex. One we have some control over, and the other is just a macro issue being witnessed worldwide.

1) We have far too many small hospitals. Hospitals like Our Ladies in Navan, Cavan Monagahan General Hospital etc. Places that provide almost no specialities, or else do them badly. They belong to the era of the horse and cart, nuns delivering babies, and TB outbreaks. Yet you'll have a load of slack-jawed yokels standing outside protesting if it's suggested that a specialist unit within the hospital is moved.

We now have motorways and air ambulances. Regional hospitals might work as step-down facilities, but have no place offering acute services. WE need to build more large hospitals in major population centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick. This is covered under Sláintecare. We even have the sites in many cases - Merlin Park in Galway was a former TB hospital that can provide a site for a large hospital with access to the motorway network.

2) People are living far longer. Modern medicine means people are living far longer, and have far better outcomes and chances of survival when they do get sick. This is putting enormous strain on our healthcare service (and on housing, but that's for another thread). This isn't unique to Ireland, and much vaunted healthcare systems like those in Canada and Finland are also struggling with this situation.

There's no easy answers, and populist rhetoric in healthcare is particularly damaging to civil discourse as it promises things that can't be delivered.

We actually have far too many hospitals in Dublin and need to close at least two major ones and concentrate the funds in the others.
But we cannot allow the mistakes that have turned Galway and Limerick hospitals into sh*tholes.

paul71 · 12-06-2020 11:01AM

Chiparus wrote: »

Or the people who supply them erroneous figures.

BTW you supplied an erroneous figure earlier, 2017 public health expenditure was 21.1 billion.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/governmentaccounts/systemofhealthaccounts/

Chiparus · 12-06-2020 11:02AM

paul71 wrote: »

Rubbish, you are clutching at straws.

Yep, the figures dont add up and my explanation is "clutching at straws".

We dont spend $27.1 billion on health in Ireland.

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Comments