Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

share_bear · 23-12-2019 12:32pm

New Query:

I would be grateful if anyone could clarify whether the local needs provision applied to areas zoned Rural VILLAGE.
I realize it applies to rural cluster and one-off rural, but I have read through Fingal's Dev plan and I can't figure it out for Rural Village. please help!

31-12-2019 12:02pm

Probably not the right place to ask, as it's not an issue in the 'real' sense of the word, but I'm wondering about the cost of sticking a 1st storey extension onto my house, on top of an existing ground floor extension (the foundations are sufficient to take the weight).

How would I go about getting a price on this, without annoying someone? I literally just want a guide price, so I can figure out if it's worth my while or not. I'd need to get planning permission etc. which I haven't, and likely wouldn't if it'd be out of my price range, but at the same time, I'd like to get an idea on where I'd stand. just don't want to be deliberately wasting a builder's time or telling them lies about work I plan on doing, though I might not even do it.

sydthebeat · 31-12-2019 12:58pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably not the right place to ask, as it's not an issue in the 'real' sense of the word, but I'm wondering about the cost of sticking a 1st storey extension onto my house, on top of an existing ground floor extension (the foundations are sufficient to take the weight).

How would I go about getting a price on this, without annoying someone? I literally just want a guide price, so I can figure out if it's worth my while or not. I'd need to get planning permission etc. which I haven't, and likely wouldn't if it'd be out of my price range, but at the same time, I'd like to get an idea on where I'd stand. just don't want to be deliberately wasting a builder's time or telling them lies about work I plan on doing, though I might not even do it.

I'd budget for about 100% min of what it would cost if you were building from scratch on the ground floor.

You may need engineered ring beams, you'll definitely need to upgrade the ceiling.

Asitis2019 · 31-12-2019 6:31pm

I'm not sure if the this the right forum or thread

A housing development is close to completion near my house. It is 90% complete, but so far there is very little information on the houses. A rumour is going around that the houses are going to be for social/council housing. I'm not inclined to believe this - the houses are on prime residential land, and are developed to high specification.

However, there has been no information, and at least two houses close to the development are now on the market at prices that I would say that are less than the market rate.

How would one know for definite if these houses are for social? One there be some specific aspect of the planning application where I would find the information? (The volume of information on amendments to amendments of applications mean it is time consuming to go through all this info)

Thanks in advance
Asitis2019

woohoo!!! · 31-12-2019 7:26pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

I'm not sure if the this the right forum or thread

A housing development is close to completion near my house. It is 90% complete, but so far there is very little information on the houses. A rumour is going around that the houses are going to be for social/council housing. I'm not inclined to believe this - the houses are on prime residential land, and are developed to high specification.

However, there has been no information, and at least two houses close to the development are now on the market at prices that I would say that are less than the market rate.

How would one know for definite if these houses are for social? One there be some specific aspect of the planning application where I would find the information? (The volume of information on amendments to amendments of applications mean it is time consuming to go through all this info)

Thanks in advance
Asitis2019

Check the planning file online (look at stuff dated more recently), check the councils or housing body website for announcements. Assuming it's zoned land, 10% will be part v social housing. The Council or a housing body may strike a deal to buy more. As regards prices, they've been dropping recently.

Reputable Rog · 31-12-2019 8:58pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Check the planning file online (look at stuff dated more recently), check the councils or housing body website for announcements. Assuming it's zoned land, 10% will be part v social housing. The Council or a housing body may strike a deal to buy more. As regards prices, they've been dropping recently.

Indeed, the Part V houses will be indicated in the plans. The Local Authorities are actively buying entire developments at the moment, something that is underpinning the housing crisis.

woohoo!!! · 31-12-2019 11:08pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Indeed, the Part V houses will be indicated in the plans. The Local Authorities are actively buying entire developments at the moment, something that is underpinning the housing crisis.

Yes, I'm aware of several such ones, including one to finish off our estate. For whatever reason, private supply has stalled the last few months. In any event the houses need to be built.

Reputable Rog · 31-12-2019 11:48pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Yes, I'm aware of several such ones, including one to finish off our estate. For whatever reason, private supply has stalled the last few months. In any event the houses need to be built.

Yes but the Local Authorities should build their own houses. This mass buying is pricing other buyers out of the market.

sydthebeat · 01-01-2020 12:13am

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Yes but the Local Authorities should build their own houses. This mass buying is pricing other buyers out of the market.

Should but will not.

They do not want to take on the costs, maintenance, and pensions of workers

woohoo!!! · 01-01-2020 11:01am

Beteeen councils and housing bodies playing catch up in both builds/renovations and HAP, the house build and rental market is being distorted. Can include affordable purchase schemes in that. Private construction has focused on build to rent, offices, hotels and student accommodation where there are higher profit margins. The days of huge semi d estates are over (cheapest to construct, highest profit margins) are done cos of density requirements and that semi d generates enormous car numbers cos largely useless for public transport.

It will be the mid 2020s, assuming no major shock or recession b4 the whole housing market stabilises. And we need a heavy skew to one and two beds and some 4 and 5 beds, rather than the traditional 3 bed, which we have too much of.

Asitis2019 · 01-01-2020 1:09pm

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Beteeen councils and housing bodies playing catch up in both builds/renovations and HAP, the house build and rental market is being distorted. Can include affordable purchase schemes in that. Private construction has focused on build to rent, offices, hotels and student accommodation where there are higher profit margins. The days of huge semi d estates are over (cheapest to construct, highest profit margins) are done cos of density requirements and that semi d generates enormous car numbers cos largely useless for public transport.

It will be the mid 2020s, assuming no major shock or recession b4 the whole housing market stabilises. And we need a heavy skew to one and two beds and some 4 and 5 beds, rather than the traditional 3 bed, which we have too much of.

So, what do you think will happen with Dublin prices in the next 18 months? There was a stabilisation/slow down in 2019. Could we begin to see a gradual decline in prices?

Reputable Rog · 01-01-2020 1:19pm

Asitis2019 wrote: »

So, what do you think will happen with Dublin prices in the next 18 months? There was a stabilisation/slow down in 2019. Could we begin to see a gradual decline in prices?

There seems to be a lot of money about the place at the moment. The last time I saw this was 2006-07. I fear another downturn.

BryanF · 01-01-2020 1:29pm

this is the construction and planning forum.

‘Planning’ in the sense of ‘how to get planning permission’

This is not the forum for speculating on the next recession, or whether local authorities should build social housing

Please go to the ‘accommodation & property’ forum to discuss these topics

Thanks

02-01-2020 1:13pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I'd budget for about 100% min of what it would cost if you were building from scratch on the ground floor.

You may need engineered ring beams, you'll definitely need to upgrade the ceiling.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, cheers Syd.

leg · 14-01-2020 3:04pm

Hi there I wonder if anyone can give me a bit of advice. I am currently drawing up plans for a self build house. I am looking at adding a mezzanine area to the plans. Can this be marked as 'storage space' or 'attic' for the purpose of planning application and not be used in the calculation of floor space for council fees ? Thanks for your help!

Supertech · 17-01-2020 2:31pm

There's a flat fee of €65 for an application for a dwelling. The floor area doesn't have any bearing on the fee calculation. See here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print#sched10

rayjdav · 17-01-2020 2:52pm

Flat planning fee as above but I'd assume the query was more in relation to development contributions??

For the additional size of a mezzanine, in the grand scheme of things, it should make very little difference tbh.

Gumbo · 17-01-2020 3:25pm

leg wrote: »

Hi there I wonder if anyone can give me a bit of advice. I am currently drawing up plans for a self build house. I am looking at adding a mezzanine area to the plans. Can this be marked as 'storage space' or 'attic' for the purpose of planning application and not be used in the calculation of floor space for council fees ? Thanks for your help!

Will you have fire safety implications etc
Will you have to show escape and access.

If it’s a mezzanine it’s classed as a floor so needs to be shown in my
Opinion.

Reputable Rog · 17-01-2020 8:00pm

You must show the mezzanine.

leg · 20-01-2020 11:05am

Hi all thank you very much for the replies. Yes it was in relation to development contributions which is what I was enquiring about apologies for not making that clearer in my post. Yes it will be build in accordance with fire and safety regs etc. But I can't see myself having the money to complete it fully and make it into a habitable sitting room for a few years. Would it be okay to put it as attic /storage space on plans (which it will be) and thus not be used it the councils calculations for Development fees and save me €4000?

rayjdav · 20-01-2020 11:18am

leg wrote: »

Would it be okay to put it as attic /storage space on plans (which it will be) and thus not be used it the councils calculations for Development fees and save me €4000?

How is not showing a mezzanine level going to save you 4K in contributions? Thats some serious mezz level.

I think you are confused as to what a mezz level is? Are you talking about converted attic space (dormer type)? Be very careful there as it will have planning implications later if you try to sell.

leg · 20-01-2020 12:37pm

In my area houses with a floor area below 2000square ft are charged €5000 in development contributions. Houses above the 2000 square ft cut off are charged €9000 in development contributions. My house design is currently just under 2000 Square ft in ground floor area however if we include mezzanine above a bedroom to overlook open plan living area this will bring the total floor area to over 2000 square ft and bring me to the higher level of council development charges. I hope this helps make a bit more sense of my question.

Reputable Rog · 20-01-2020 7:34pm

leg wrote: »

In my area houses with a floor area below 2000square ft are charged €5000 in development contributions. Houses above the 2000 square ft cut off are charged €9000 in development contributions. My house design is currently just under 2000 Square ft in ground floor area however if we include mezzanine above a bedroom to overlook open plan living area this will bring the total floor area to over 2000 square ft and bring me to the higher level of council development charges. I hope this helps make a bit more sense of my question.

What area are you in and what formula are they using to calculate the contribution?

Atomic Pineapple · 21-01-2020 12:15pm

Our application ended in an FI whereby they requested new plans with the house relocated within the proposed site. In principle, this is something we would be OK with. The problem is the house was designed to maximise the sun in the mornings and evenings, and the location they want it at now will be much darker and less vibrant with light. The house design could be redone to mitigate this. So, my question is, can we look at changing the change of the house when we resubmit or will this be an issue with the application?

*we need to place a new site notice etc... anyway, and move drainage and sewage etc.. so new plans need to be drawn up.
** Our engineer is out of the country on holidays at the minute so I'm trying to get others opinions/experiences before he gets back so we have an idea of options to pursue with him

leg · 21-01-2020 3:32pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

What area are you in and what formula are they using to calculate the contribution?

Hi there thanks again for your reply. I am in the South East of the country. Here is the figures for Development contributions in my area

ProfanityURL · 28-03-2020 4:51pm

Reati wrote: »

This is an interesting scenario. I've not encountered so all theory before but I can throw out thoughts. You could in do this but it's a timing thing.

Once you have planning granted they can't really revoke it unless you were fraudulent in the application or some cpo style stick goes down.

Like, if someone builds a house then buys a second as an investment that doesn't effect the permission of the first house. you need somewhere to live during the construction so I think after permission would be fine.

Now, where I'd be wary is if you ever need additional permission for the site / house you hope to built. I'd be of the mind that if the council thought you were trying to get one over on them they might make stuff a lot harder in future. Eps if they think you are doing it for speculation.

So, I wouldn't buy the house or any house before you had permission. They will ask you and you will get refused and you don't want to forget to mention it and they find out later. The councils don't take kindly as they are getting strict on rural housing of late.

I was reading back through the thread and this is something I am interested in as well. I was wondering if this advice was in relation to local need, or planning applications in general?

For example, if I have saved up enough money to buy a 2 or 3 bedroom semi-d say, but my goal is to build a 5 bed house in the countryside. Ideally I would buy the semi-d now, maybe live in it for a few years and then take out a mortgage based on the value of this property as well as any additional borrowing/savings to finance my new build once I was ready. The idea would be to save me accommodation costs during my build as I could live in the town house and also leave me with an asset and rental income to help pay off my mortgage once I've built my dream home in the countryside.

My questions is:
(a) Would owning this other property prevent me from getting approved for planning on a new build?
(b) If so, would I need to have a gang of kids to prove my current house was unsuitable for my current needs or would intention to have a gang of kids in the future suffice?

Just to add, I am not planning to apply through local needs as I do not qualify.

BryanF · 28-03-2020 5:03pm

Well if local needs doesn’t apply, questions a & b doesn’t apply

Reputable Rog · 28-03-2020 6:20pm

ProfanityURL wrote: »

I was reading back through the thread and this is something I am interested in as well. I was wondering if this advice was in relation to local need, or planning applications in general?

For example, if I have saved up enough money to buy a 2 or 3 bedroom semi-d say, but my goal is to build a 5 bed house in the countryside. Ideally I would buy the semi-d now, maybe live in it for a few years and then take out a mortgage based on the value of this property as well as any additional borrowing/savings to finance my new build once I was ready. The idea would be to save me accommodation costs during my build as I could live in the town house and also leave me with an asset and rental income to help pay off my mortgage once I've built my dream home in the countryside.

My questions is:
(a) Would owning this other property prevent me from getting approved for planning on a new build?
(b) If so, would I need to have a gang of kids to prove my current house was unsuitable for my current needs or would intention to have a gang of kids in the future suffice?

Just to add, I am not planning to apply through local needs as I do not qualify.

1. For local needs, yes you would be precluded.
2. Gang of kids- is not a material consideration so therefore copulate and procreate away but it will not be a mitigating factor.

Reati · 30-03-2020 9:42am

BryanF wrote: »

Well if local needs doesn’t apply, questions a & b doesn’t apply

Exactly - If you have no reason to build and live in the rural area, then you won't be let. Local pretty much always must apply.

And (depending on the council) having a house already almost always makes you illegible to build.

I know of a guy who had a house in rural area and bought land up the road from it an decided he liked that more as a place to live. Tried for a house. Was refused as he had a house. Then sold the house and made himself "homeless". Tried again, refused. Tried in kids names, refused. Build a mobile home on site and went for retention. Refused. Started an "argi-business" on site. Tried again refused etc etc.

Actually, he got himself caught lovely too. In the end, he tried by making the site smaller and putting it in someone else name who had a local need. The council yes'd it iirc but put a condition that only the named could live at the address and it couldn't be sold with permission of the council. (now this is all years ago so it might be worth taking w/ pitch of salt my memory). Anyway, he gave up and moved to a house in the nearest town to him and site been for sale since.

froog · 15-04-2020 8:43pm

Hi All

Got an RFI today for a planned house right next to my family home in a metropolitan greenbelt area and they are asking;

b) Documentary evidence including dates to show that you have resided on the landholding or the local rural area for a minimum of seven years prior to the date of the planning application

i only just moved home and haven't lived here in about 10 years (never left the country i might add). presume that is okay? it doesn't have to be living there immediately prior to the planning app?

also what kind of evidence could I use here? old school records, etc?

BryanF · 16-04-2020 8:16am

‘Green belt’ ..

Speak with your planning consultant. Use the development plan, ie respond to the relevant sections.

Are you farming?

be careful how you respond.

Be prepared to pull the application before a formal decision is made by the council.

I hate saying this, but nepotism is still rife in local politics/authorities. It may be Time to get councilor involved.

sydthebeat · 16-04-2020 9:15am

froog wrote: »

Hi All

Got an RFI today for a planned house right next to my family home in a metropolitan greenbelt area and they are asking;

b) Documentary evidence including dates to show that you have resided on the landholding or the local rural area for a minimum of seven years prior to the date of the planning application

i only just moved home and haven't lived here in about 10 years (never left the country i might add). presume that is okay? it doesn't have to be living there immediately prior to the planning app?

also what kind of evidence could I use here? old school records, etc?

Did you get any post delivered to your home for those 10 years you were away??

Is your voting card delivered there ie is that your registered address for voting?

Reputable Rog · 16-04-2020 11:15am

froog wrote: »

Hi All

Got an RFI today for a planned house right next to my family home in a metropolitan greenbelt area and they are asking;

b) Documentary evidence including dates to show that you have resided on the landholding or the local rural area for a minimum of seven years prior to the date of the planning application

i only just moved home and haven't lived here in about 10 years (never left the country i might add). presume that is okay? it doesn't have to be living there immediately prior to the planning app?

also what kind of evidence could I use here? old school records, etc?

What was point A?

BryanF · 18-04-2020 10:48pm

dalalada wrote: »

If I own a house already in Ireland can I build a new house in rural Ireland? Will I get planning? Its just I know a guy who already owns a house for many years he bought and recently got planning approved for a Greenfield site new build.

Is the proposed house in a ‘rural control zone’? Was the house your guy built, in a rural housing control zone?

BryanF · 18-04-2020 11:09pm

dalalada wrote: »

That I have no idea, how may I find out? If it is does that mean its an illegal build?

When you pick a site, approach the Coucnil or a local planning/arch/eng consultant and they’ll advise if the sites zoning.

BryanF · 18-04-2020 11:16pm

dalalada wrote: »

Planning query an old handed planner or engineer might be able to tell me. Please look at the pics. This is a small town in munster. The house has a large rear garden of approx 28M x 14M with a large road access gate to a quite side road. My question is would I get planning for any kind of a (small cottage type or 1 story) house in this garden? Build a wall behind existing house to create a boundary. I also have the towns zoning map and the existing site is in an established primary residential area.

Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

Attachment not found.

Not something that can be answered without site assessment, reviewing the zoning and whether there is precedence in the area.

Do you own this site? or are you speculating on someone else’s property in a public forum?

Edit: I’d have a go, seeking planning, only purchasing on condition of receiving planning.

sydthebeat · 18-04-2020 11:57pm

dalalada wrote: »

As its in a town is there any hard or fast rules that would indicate its an auto no? What do you mean by Precedence?

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad%2C19164%2Cen.pdf

it would have to comply with this document at a minimum, and after this, it would have to comply with the regional development plan, county development plan, and local area plan

you can read through the document to see the different aspects of minimum requirement that have to be met

BryanF · 19-04-2020 9:33am

dalalada wrote: »

He did not build in a rural control zone. I assume so one can own a house or houses already and then build a real house on a Greenfield site? its a stand alone house

If this green field site is a rural housing control zone, and you own another house in Ireland , then the local authority will likely say you dont have a housing need, thereby refusing planning.

You can build as many houses as you like, in an urban/town/village setting ie where the land is suitably zoned.

Intothewesht · 24-04-2020 1:08pm

Hi there,we moved to our current home in rural west Cork about 2 years ago We are about half a mile from the top of a mile long cul de sac and frequently walk the road up to a small lake in the hills for picnics or fishing and pass what could be described a hippy commune on about 10 acres with about 5 families Living there.Not a friendly bunch so we just say hi in passing.On the way up last week we noticed some building work going on and had not saw any planning notices for quite a while so looked up granted planning permissions in our town land
And were amazed to discover that only one of the houses has planning (the original cottage).On chatting to one of the friendlier neighbours they have apparently built 4 houses on the land in the last 15 years with no planning whatsoever all hooked up to mains water via the original cottage and at least 3have installed septic tanks again with no permission.These are proper bricks and mortar houses not shacks or lean to’s.The neighbour we were chatting to said he wrote to the council but never heard a word back.Can anything be done about this now,the lad I was talking to said he was told that once something is there in situation for 7 years or more they can’t be touched.Is this true?the water pressure is appalling here and I’m guessing 4 or 5 extra homes illegally (from what
I can gather)doesn’t help matters much.Anyone enlighten me on what can be done (if anything)

Reputable Rog · 24-04-2020 1:53pm

Intothewesht wrote: »

Hi there,we moved to our current home in rural west Cork about 2 years ago We are about half a mile from the top of a mile long cul de sac and frequently walk the road up to a small lake in the hills for picnics or fishing and pass what could be described a hippy commune on about 10 acres with about 5 families Living there.Not a friendly bunch so we just say hi in passing.On the way up last week we noticed some building work going on and had not saw any planning notices for quite a while so looked up granted planning permissions in our town land
And were amazed to discover that only one of the houses has planning (the original cottage).On chatting to one of the friendlier neighbours they have apparently built 4 houses on the land in the last 15 years with no planning whatsoever all hooked up to mains water via the original cottage and at least 3have installed septic tanks again with no permission.These are proper bricks and mortar houses not shacks or lean to’s.The neighbour we were chatting to said he wrote to the council but never heard a word back.Can anything be done about this now,the lad I was talking to said he was told that once something is there in situation for 7 years or more they can’t be touched.Is this true?the water pressure is appalling here and I’m guessing 4 or 5 extra homes illegally (from what
I can gather)doesn’t help matters much.Anyone enlighten me on what can be done (if anything)

If the structures were built in the last 7 years the Council can take enforcement action otherwise no. There may be some way of getting it addressed but it would be difficult and complex.
If there some evidence of intensification then that might be a route.

Ahorseofaman · 24-04-2020 3:32pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

If the structures were built in the last 7 years the Council can take enforcement action otherwise no. There may be some way of getting it addressed but it would be difficult and complex.
If there some evidence of intensification then that might be a route.

So if I build a house in a remote area with no permission and get away with it for seven years all is good?
wow,good to know.

BryanF · 24-04-2020 7:06pm

Ahorseofaman wrote: »

So if I build a house in a remote area with no permission and get away with it for seven years all is good?
wow,good to know.

False.

Ahorseofaman · 24-04-2020 8:37pm

BryanF wrote: »

False.

Could you explain why please?
(not doubting you.just curious.)

Reputable Rog · 24-04-2020 10:21pm

Ahorseofaman wrote: »

Could you explain why please?
(not doubting you.just curious.)

You’ll never sell it being the first problem you’ll encounter.

onrail · 11-06-2020 1:28pm

A couple who rent locally are applying for planning permission to build on a (rural) site nearby, but not adjacent to my house. They own 2 dogs that are terrorising other animals in the area, intimidating walkers etc. Obviously the locals aren't best pleased with them potentially moving to the area permanently.

Does anyone know whether nuisance caused by dogs would be grounds for a planning objection?

Reputable Rog · 11-06-2020 1:56pm

onrail wrote: »

A couple who rent locally are applying for planning permission to build on a (rural) site nearby, but not adjacent to my house. They own 2 dogs that are terrorising other animals in the area, intimidating walkers etc. Obviously the locals aren't best pleased with them potentially moving to the area permanently.

Does anyone know whether nuisance caused by dogs would be grounds for a planning objection?

No it’s not grounds for a planning objection. Ring the guards.

onrail · 11-06-2020 2:13pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

No it’s not grounds for a planning objection. Ring the guards.

So I’m guessing their claim for local needs (Which is spurious anyway) couldn’t be argued against on the basis that the animals may pose a threat to livestock?

they’ve been warned plenty of times and the sob stories have kept everyone from calling the guards. To be honest, it’d be easier for everyone if they just vacated. Guards/warden will be called at the next infraction though.

(Sorry to derail)

JimmyMW · 11-06-2020 2:24pm

onrail wrote: »

So I’m guessing their claim for local needs (Which is spurious anyway) couldn’t be argued against on the basis that the animals may pose a threat to livestock?

they’ve been warned plenty of times and the sob stories have kept everyone from calling the guards. To be honest, it’d be easier for everyone if they just vacated. Guards/warden will be called at the next infraction though.

(Sorry to derail)

if their local need is spurious you can just base your objection on that, however note if they are renting in the area north of 7 years (I think) they could claim a local need as good as anyone else.

Reputable Rog · 11-06-2020 2:32pm

onrail wrote: »

So I’m guessing their claim for local needs (Which is spurious anyway) couldn’t be argued against on the basis that the animals may pose a threat to livestock?

they’ve been warned plenty of times and the sob stories have kept everyone from calling the guards. To be honest, it’d be easier for everyone if they just vacated. Guards/warden will be called at the next infraction though.

(Sorry to derail)

Worrying sheep is not a legitimate planning concern and would be considered vexatious. If you have a concern about animals call the guards of the dog warden in your local council.

onrail · 11-06-2020 2:40pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Worrying sheep is not a legitimate planning concern and would be considered vexatious. If you have a concern about animals call the guards of the dog warden in your local council.

That’s grand - thanks for the feedback

Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

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