Blackface

marklazarcovic · 10-06-2020 06:56PM

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

White Chicks is pretty offensive. Plus it is sh1t, so I would my have an issue with it being banned.

Only if your looking to be offended,if you don't give a fcuk then it really isn't.

Rodney Bathgate · 10-06-2020 06:59PM

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Only if your looking to be offended,if you don't give a fcuk then it really isn't.

Which could be said for many things. In your opinion, should black people give or not give a fcuk about ‘blackface’?

Quantum Erasure · 10-06-2020 07:01PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Holland and Belgium have a Christmas Festival called Zwarte Piet. That aint going anywhere,

I wouldn't be so sure

10-06-2020 07:08PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don’t remember there being any outrage about it. I do remember not finding it that funny the 1st time I watched it. It’s one that gets better the more you watch it.

I remember at the time there was more outrage about his ‘you never go full retard’ scene

murpho999 · 10-06-2020 07:10PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Holland and Belgium have a Christmas Festival called Zwarte Piet. That aint going anywhere, it's all about Blackfacing .

Just to clarify, it's more of a Dutch thing, it's called "Sinterklaas" which is basically Santa Claus. He's helped by his "Zwarte Piet" or "Black Pete".

It's also nothing to do with Christmas and celebrated on December 5th.

People in Netherlands dress up as "Zarte Piet", they say it's not racist but it does depict black people as big red lips, ear rings, big curly hair and somewhat stupid.

It has racist origins and has been controversial and over the last few years they have introduced other Petes in different colours.

I'm curious what will happen this year as there have been BLM protests in the last week in The Netherlands.

shaveAbullock · 10-06-2020 07:13PM

murpho999 wrote: »

I'm curious what will happen this year as there have been BLM protests in the last week in The Netherlands.

It was almost cancelled in 2016, I'd say it's as good as gone this year.

murpho999 · 10-06-2020 07:27PM

shaveAbullock wrote: »

It was almost cancelled in 2016, I'd say it's as good as gone this year.

t should be but it's not that simple. It's a cultural event. People dress up at home and work on the day and beforehand and many many Dutch people vehemently defend it.

marklazarcovic · 10-06-2020 07:30PM

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Which could be said for many things. In your opinion, should black people give or not give a fcuk about ‘blackface’?

Up to the individual isn't it

El_Duderino 09 · 10-06-2020 07:34PM

Better Than Christ wrote: »

I think that might have gone right over some people's heads. They love Blazing Saddles because it contains the n-word and that scene where they all fart really loudly.

Yeah absolutely. I'll bet the people who opposed the civil rights movement would have also called that movie 'PC gone mad' if that term existed back then.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-06-2020 07:39PM

o1s1n wrote: »

If it were as simple and honest as that, that would be fantastic. Unfortunately it's not.

If she'd said 'black people' in her twitter post, someone would have jumped on her saying 'It's POC, Ellen!' - there is no right and wrong, just people enjoying becoming outraged.

I mean, I doubt it as Floyd was a black man. There was a great example of this in Big Brother a few years ago. There was a transgender woman and a bloke who did drag. The trans woman was really techy about anything anyone said incorrect. They were afraid to talk to her by the end in case they said something wrong. The bloke who did drag was really open and would answer all their questions. There was a great scene with him taping up his balls while John Barnes, Shane Lynch and another bloke watched and had a great laugh together, learning about the different types of drag artists, transgender people and what they feel and experience. Totally different approaches and totally different outcomes.

This thread would suggest that people love the outrage. How many times has someone ironically suggested something BLM should protest next? They love to fanticise about BLM protesting things, just for the outrage.

Granadino · 10-06-2020 07:39PM

Los Reyes Magos in Spain on January 6th also has people who do or did black up to represent one of the three kings.
I think now they have black people in costume where in the past I imagine a lot of towns and villages didn’t have any black people living there.
I think the craw thumpers from outside of Spain tried to “shut it down” last year or this year but were politely told to piss off.

Sarcozies · 10-06-2020 08:46PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Case in point. One side says it's not OK to dressing way that has traditionally been used to mock them. The other side says things like "Black Ops? I hope you mean People of Colour Ops. Otherwise, we might have a problem".

It's not the same, is it?

Well no it's the not same.

I'm not being serious.
I'm not advocating for things to be altered or erased.
I don't know what sides you are even referring to as well.

RandomViewer · 10-06-2020 09:27PM

Ant and Dec have apologised for blackface sketch, I saw that sketch, crimes against comedy would be more fitting

Quantum Erasure · 10-06-2020 09:40PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This thread would suggest that people love the outrage. How many times has someone ironically suggested something BLM should protest next? They love to fanticise about BLM protesting things, just for the outrage.

#ShutDownSTEM #ShutDownAcademia #Strike4BlackLives.

PsychoPete · 10-06-2020 09:52PM

I take it lethal weapon 7 is out of the question ?

MV5-BMTk4-Mzgy-Nj-E0-Ml5-BMl5-Ban-Bn-Xk-Ft-ZTgw-MTQx-MTI1-MDE-V1.jpg

10-06-2020 10:15PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Surely it's all about context or intent?

You would think/hope so wouldn't you? But wasn't there a college professor in the US recently fired for using "the n word" during a conversation specifically about why we should not use "the n word"? He was literally arguing for being culturally and racially sensitive but he used the word and he was hung for it. Where was "intent" there I wonder? Though I admit I am vague on the details so I hope I am not too far off on what happened there.

There was also another lecturer who used the same word while discussing it's use _in context_ in some old piece of literature (I forget which book). His "intent" was education I suspect. Intent did not save him either alas.

I posted earlier about my daughter dressing up as Moana. Her "intent" could not have been purer. No one cared. Offline. Reading some online articles it seem kids - kids! - darkening skin to dress up and hero worship the latest Disney "princess" was all kinds of wrong online however. Intent? Not relevant seemingly.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But it's difficult to ignore the historical context of dressing up as black people to mock them.

My gut feeling on that is therefore to do more dressing up as black people to celebrate them - especially the ones who are our personal heroes. Rather than grovel at our past - lets dilute it with pure intention and well meant examples of it going forward. Giving two fingers to people who did it for evil in the past - but taking power away from it - rather than giving power to it - by doing it for good in the future.

I have a lot of respect for Neil DeGrasse Tyson. I think I will make a point of dressing up as him next time dress up is an option for me. Especially if I can track down a copy of his trademark waistcoat.

And actually I am currently on a dare/challange from my mates to watch every episode of every show in the DC "Arrowverse" and we joked at the end of it we should have a DC dress up party to celebrate. I am so cross dressing up as Starfire. Nice character. Powerful female figure. Black. And great hair and nails

I am not sure Titans is actually in the arrowverse - but I might hope no one notices that small detail

El_Duderino 09 · 10-06-2020 10:28PM

Sarcozies wrote: »

Well no it's the not same.

I'm not being serious.
I'm not advocating for things to be altered or erased.
I don't know what sides you are even referring to as well.

Yeah I get that you're not being serious. One side (the black people who say they're offended by backing up) has a serious grievance based on historical discrimination thst still persists to this day. The other side (the ones who pretend there is no genuine grievance) has to use irony and sarcasm to make it sound like there's an equivalence. As you did with the black OPs/people of colour OP'S, joke earlier.

It illustrates the point pretty well when the opposition to a genuine point is all based on sarcasm and pretending not to understand the issue.

Quantum Erasure · 10-06-2020 10:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You would think/hope so wouldn't you? But wasn't there a college professor in the US recently fired for using "the n word" during a conversation specifically about why we should not use "the n word"? He was literally arguing for being culturally and racially sensitive but he used the word and he was hung for it. Where was "intent" there I wonder?

you think that's bad? there's a history of controversy over a totally unrelated word that sounds like it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_niggardly

10-06-2020 10:37PM

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

you think that's bad? there's a history of controversy over a totally unrelated word that sounds like it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_niggardly

Yeah I remember that. That was funny.

The nozzferrahhtoo sent me a picture recently from Germany. They have an ice cream over there called "Nogger". I wonder if it will fall foul of the latest uprisings.

Sarcozies · 10-06-2020 11:40PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah I get that you're not being serious. One side (the black people who say they're offended by backing up) has a serious grievance based on historical discrimination thst still persists to this day. The other side (the ones who pretend there is no genuine grievance) has to use irony and sarcasm to make it sound like there's an equivalence. As you did with the black OPs/people of colour OP'S, joke earlier.

It illustrates the point pretty well when the opposition to a genuine point is all based on sarcasm and pretending not to understand the issue.

Taking offence at something is subjective. You cannot adhere to the grievances of everyone who take offense at art of the past.

Rodney Bathgate · 10-06-2020 11:44PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I remember that. That was funny.

The nozzferrahhtoo sent me a picture recently from Germany. They have an ice cream over there called "Nogger". I wonder if it will fall foul of the latest uprisings.

There is even a ‘Nogger Black’

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQWNYITzo70UoRvt3_jg5k96qds2JG755J2nxF4R6A1yw_N4C6b&usqp=CAU

Rodney Bathgate · 10-06-2020 11:48PM

Will we ever see the return of the BK Black Whopper?

Although the green poo side effect probably killed that one off for good.

Akrasia · 10-06-2020 11:49PM

I think Father Dick Byrne should issue a wholehearted Apology for entering the lookalike competition as Diana Ross

Akrasia · 10-06-2020 11:58PM

I’m with Stephen Fry on this one. A gay man with a serious mental health disorder

https://youtu.be/LJKXJNM3W-c

Akrasia · 11-06-2020 12:10AM

o1s1n wrote: »

Ellen Degeneres was given grief the other day for tweeting about 'people of colour' when speaking about George Floyd.

Apparently in that instance she should have used the term 'black man', as 'people of colour' would include other ethnic groups who's plight isn't in the same league as the BLM stuff.

Sometimes I think the social justice morality brigade are trying to piss us all off on purpose.

Where did you see this outrage?
Did it come up in your YouTube feed or news alert?

There are a couple of silos playing off against each other, the victim culture versus the outrage culture. People are outraged at victims blaming them for victimizing them

It’s all just a bunch of over sensitive people reacting to everything in an almost paint by numbers set of rules and guidelines over what is acceptable to say and think

I don’t give a sh1t about the words people use, words convey meaning, and I will only take offense when it is deliberately targeted at me

Policing language or art or clothing does nothing to change actual attitudes and perception. Banning clothes or words only leads genuine racists and bigots to mask their words or behaviors behind ‘dog whistles’ that become the next words or behaviours to be banned when the offended realize what they mean, and lead pretend liberals to do the dreaded ‘virtue signaling’

Purple Mountain · 11-06-2020 12:18AM

There's a story in the news today about a school here getting negativity for their students blacking their faces for a production of Hairspray.
I just don't get the outrage for something like that.
Or say if I went to a fancy dress as Mel B and put dark make up on my skin to give my character more authentication.
If a black/Asian woman wanted to portray Marilyn Munroe in a stage production and used say sudocreme on her face and body, would there be the same outrage?
I totally get the wrongness of dressing up as someone of another ethnicity to make fun of or mock them but surely in the spirit of theatre or playing a role, how is it wrong?

kylith · 11-06-2020 12:28AM

Purple Mountain wrote: »

There's a story in the news today about a school here getting negativity for their students blacking their faces for a production of Hairspray.
I just don't get the outrage for something like that.
Or say if I went to a fancy dress as Mel B and put dark make up on my skin to give my character more authentication.
If a black/Asian woman wanted to portray Marilyn Munroe in a stage production and used say sudocreme on her face and body, would there be the same outrage?
I totally get the wrongness of dressing up as someone of another ethnicity to make fun of or mock them but surely in the spirit of theatre or playing a role, how is it wrong?

Personally, I'd agree. Dressing as a celebrity or ethnicity that you admire and/or respect doesn't seem like it would be harmful. But it upsets people, and purposefully doing something that you know will upset people breaks Wheton's Law.

Gregor Samsa · 11-06-2020 12:54AM

kylith wrote: »

Personally, I'd agree. Dressing as a celebrity or ethnicity that you admire and/or respect doesn't seem like it would be harmful. But it upsets people, and purposefully doing something that you know will upset people breaks Wheton's Law.

People may remember the story involving Australian rules footballer Nic Naitanui in 2016. A white kid dressed up as him (in blackface) for World Book Week, as Naitanui was his hero. Mum posted pics on social media. Outrage ensued at the mother dressing her child up in blackface, and counter outrage at the idea that the kid had done anything wrong when all he was trying to do was pay respect to his hero.

But crucially Naitanui himself spoke out. He said that he found it insulting to him, even though he knew the kid didn't have bad intentions. He didn't call on the kid or mum to be punished in any way, he merely said he should "reflect and choose an alternate method next time", and said he'd like to meet him, and called him "a little champion reader". That's the end of the argument as far as I'm concerned.

I don't get offended seeing a black actor doing "whiteface" - whiteface has absolutely no negative meaning or resonance to me, my people or my history. When some - it seems a lot of - black people see blackface, they do get offended, because it does have a legitimate negative resonance to them due to history and personal experience. If I had to wake up each day and face actual discrimination and prejudice because of the colour of my skin, maybe I would find whiteface offensive. If whiteface had been historically used to mock my people and replace them in entertainment with caricatures, then maybe I'd find it insulting. But I don't have to, and it didn't. This is why all the "what about White Chicks?" posts specularly miss the point.

We can all sit here and pontificate about what other people should or shouldn't be offended about without their input, or we can listen to people and not do the things that we know upset them, especially when they've explained it to us again and again. As you say, Wheton's Law: Don't be a dick.

Cole · 11-06-2020 10:01AM

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Leigh Francis has apologised recently for the brown masks used in Bo Selecta. He claims he has been listening etc etc, and now knows it was hurtful. But Craig David, the main person beitng lampooned, has been open about how hurtful it was for over 20 years, he's said it made his life hell and I think even confronted Francis about it at its peak. Why is Mr. Francis ok with hurting someone directly for a prolonged period, but now feels the need to apologise for indirect impact? Has he apologised for portraying Christina Aguilera as a scouse prostitute? Maybe, but I dont think he has.

Lots of celebrities are using this to boost their profile, its absurd.

If a comedian wants to sincerely reflect on how they've depicted someone...and even publicly apologise...then more power to them. But Leigh Francis is among the very worst example of the utter sham sincerity in a lot of these public pronouncements. Like you said, he doesn't give a sh1te about his continuous ridiculing of Craig David (I thought the initial absurdity of the 'character' was funny, but then it just became almost like public bullying).

I never thought race was a focus of his celebrity caricatures on Bo Selecta, but if he genuinely feels it was inappropriate,then fine...but he doesn't imo. I'm just waiting for his apology to Irish people for shouting potato (in a 'funny' Irish accent) at every Irish guest on Celebrity Juice...or depicting an Irish accent as incomprehensible. That was a really clear example of perpetuating stereotypes of a specific community/ethnic group, but acknowledging that won't get him any kudos or social media likes. An utter fraud.

Hector Savage · 11-06-2020 10:41AM

topper75 wrote: »

Gee you sound really angry. And what is really funny is you are a white Irish guy taking offence. You made the 'mistake' of getting back to me? Yeah I don't think the respect issue is a skin colour one here. I think it is much more basic.

You decried people who are white putting on makeup to look like a black person. I pointed out the irony of your username. Not the funniest thing anybody will read on here today of course, but you failed to take that in good humour.

Back in the day you would have made a great priest with that kind of sanctimonious mindset. But much wiser and more erudite men than I have already talked about this phenomenon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT2rlJe9cuU

Amazed this sensible video doesn't have more thanks ...

Blackface

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